@elbrant Tanner in Connecticut is a senior purebred. I had a lengthy conversation with the owner. Tanner is 12 years old. Her owner have recently retired and downsized their home. Tanner isn't coping with the smaller space. There are more details but I prefer not to mention them in a relatively public forum.
WANTED: Basenji Pup/Young, Male or Female
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If I'm reading her posts right, Miss P. is 19 years young. She is NOT a Back Yard Breeder, nor a Puppy Mill, nor even a "Hobbyist" breeder, whatever that means.
Simply, she had a basenji she's loved for the last 10 years and thought that she could breed dogs. Call it being naive, call it following her dream, whatever. She saved her money and bought her puppy, later named Marli, so she could possibly show her, and then breed her with another stud champion.Miss P. didn't come to this forum to get bashed around. Things aren't going as she imagined, so she's trying to find another home for her 8 month old, and to recoup some of her costs…. she's 19 years old, after all. Can we keep that in mind when we decide to cast judgement?
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Go back and read some of her earlier post when she decided to get this bitch…. there was more then a little conversation that this was not a good idea and why... and also the question was raised if this bitch was from a responsible breeder...
And Hobby breeders are ones that breed to improve the breed, not to make money, if fact rarely even cover the cost of breeding a litter...
The price she is trying to get is really not realistic, regardless of what she paid or has put into the bitch.
And even at 19, lessons are sometimes really hard... you swallow your pride, do what is best... and learn by your mistakes... at any age... so the fact that she way overpaid for this girl to begin with is and has to be considered a lesson learned.
However, note in this case that she is still planning to get yet another bitch and breed....
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Patty, you are a sweet, tolerant, nice person. I can see this from your postings. But age really shouldn't serve as a shield when we're talking about the serious business of selling or breeding other living creatures. 19 years of age is not too young to learn to take responsibility for your own actions. That's what I tell the freshmen I catch plagiarizing or cheating in my college-level courses – I've heard "she's 19 years old, after all" from well-intentioned parents, but I file the academic dishonesty paperwork anyway. Now plagiarism is hardly comparable to the process of establishing a kennel... but I'm jumping in because that statement just struck a chord with me.
Back to the subject... By all accounts, Miss P. wants to do things expertly; the tone of her Praireland Basenjis website (which I think you've read carefully) conveys just that. But what I'm seeing pointed out on this public forum -- in brusque terms, perhaps, but honest ones -- is that something's amiss. $1000 - $1500 is a lot to pay for a "pedigreed" Basenji of questionable temperament, no matter how much was put into her. It was too much to pay to begin with, and the financial loss should be taken as part of the "lesson" that it really ISN'T that easy to acquire/show/breed dogs. Puppies are not blank slates, even at the age of 8 weeks. Since the seller in question is rehoming her dog because of a situational issue that she has admittedly been vague about (i.e. dog nipping son, seller not having time to work with 9 month old puppy), I think there is legitimate reason to question how she has the time to raise the 8 week old puppy that she is requesting as a trade.
There's questioning, and there's judgment. I think the former is called for here, and there has been a lot of that, but I haven't seen any 'bashing' or insults, just what some might call "brutal honesty."
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Curlytails… thank you for your post, very well put... and very honest and very much to the point... much better then I did....... and I would only like to add regarding price of pups... there are many of us here on the Forum that place our pups for around 1000.00.. but they are fully health tested, of good temperament and on a contract that not only covers if you have to "give" up your pups for any reason (doesn't address a refund however, but addresses the fact that you can not just "sell" your Basenji, period)... and if they must be spay/neutered.... As many of you know if you live in California, our Vet prices are way more then many other places in the US... so the cost to raising a litter over and above things like health testing is pretty high... and we all know that anything and everything can go wrong in whelping a litter....
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If I'm reading her posts right, Miss P. is 19 years young. She is NOT a Back Yard Breeder, nor a Puppy Mill, nor even a "Hobbyist" breeder, whatever that means.
Simply, she had a basenji she's loved for the last 10 years and thought that she could breed dogs. Call it being naive, call it following her dream, whatever. She saved her money and bought her puppy, later named Marli, so she could possibly show her, and then breed her with another stud champion.Miss P. didn't come to this forum to get bashed around. Things aren't going as she imagined, so she's trying to find another home for her 8 month old, and to recoup some of her costs…. she's 19 years old, after all. Can we keep that in mind when we decide to cast judgement?
That is honeslty exactly my situation. and i appreciate you being kind about it. I have a 10 month old son, and i need all the money i can get. I DO want her to have a good home and i DO NOT have the money to get her spayed just to sell her. i dont want to put any more money into her than i have already because i dont have a job nor do i have the money to do so. I did come on this forum to get help and maybe get some money back. I DO want a puppy so that it can be part of my family and yes if i do breed i will be doing all the health testing –as i planned to do with marli before i decided to sell her for the incidents that have happend-- so im sorry if people dont agree with that.
And thank you PAtty M, that was also nice of you. I know you werent taking sides but i appreciate the input to share your side of the situation. and lot of people dont even know what a basenji is in south dakota, so your right the basenji community is definately "trhiving" here
funny that you mention it, i do try Cesars methods on my dogs, along with the dogs that I train and it works wonders...marli is a little more difficult but i dont have the time right NOW to work with her to fix it when i can start fresh--even if that sounds extremely horible as i can see some people may say--with an 8 week old puppy.
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Several years ago when Whitney [this is Miss P's first name] came to me for advice… I gave her TONS of it... loads of education on Basenjis, breeding, etc. She had a girl and she was interested in my boys and/or a puppy.
I also was not willing to sell her a Basenji... due to the fact that she continually told me she wanted to breed and didn't need the show quality pups, she would take something for lesser money.
I had no interest in one of my Basenjis be put into this kind of situation. Several years have gone by... nothing has changed. Except that she now is an older kid with a kid. And having a puppy is apparently not the best of situations for her family at this time.
Go to Companion Pets, get the puppy spayed. THEN find her a good home.
A r/w spayed bitch would be easily placed... and at her age, there should be no reason you couldn't place her for $500. That would sound to be the best thing she could do at this time. -
Miss P., you said yourself that you are a "very poor" person and money as well as time is an issue for you right now with your child, but according to your website, you have another puppy coming in the middle or end of October. As in, one month from now? From a breeder that's not even registered with the BCOA, despite the loads of literature and recommendations on your own website? I don't understand how you still think that's a good idea, given what you've shared about your priorities here.
And if that sounds "insulting" or judgmental because I am confused by your decision, so be it.
Apologies to the original poster who was just looking around for a young pup – hope he/she's not being spammed to death with e-mail notifications.
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I have found her a nice home. Thanks everyone for all the input.
and im sorry if this sounds rude and mean but this is going to be my opinion. A few of you who breed basenjis seems like you are all that counts, that you guys think everyone else is a piece of crap because they want to start breeding. YOU started breeding at one time. Some people have to do it differently but truely want to do it for the good of the breed and want to start showing and do TRULY love the breed. Maybe we need a little help in that start. not alot of criticism of how horrible we are and how stupid and that its a bad idea…but its ALWAYS a bad idea when its not YOU breeding them because you think you know so much about them. Maybe you do. but you can use that to help instead of critizise. If someone is going to do it they are going to do it help or not. Wouldnt it be better to do it with help and guidance and done correctly than to have to go to a BYB or hobby breeder to get a puppy?
I DO want a puppy with show potential and I have been looking. First of all yes marli didnt get along well with my home and my situation and yes that is why i found her a home, also because i realized she wasnt going to do well in a show after seeing her attitude and temperament. What makes me so mad in this whole situation is because people act like im so bad and like they KNOW me. NO ONE KNOWS ME ON HERE...and that makes me so mad that people judge me without knowing me. Sure I am trying to get a breedable basenjis but i am up front about it because i want the breeder to know that i DO want to IN TIME and I want a breeder to help me do it right and be behind me in helping me have the right experience. Just because you have been in the business for a long time and you are "popular" doesnt mean you are big **** and invincible to the people who are just starting off.
Im sorry if i sound snobby and ignorant but honestly i am hurt by what people are saying and the topper was Khani. You are NOT so perfect and i may be attacked for saying that but its the truth. and you do NOT know me. And I didnt go for something "for less money" as obviously 1200 dollars isnt cheap (whether she is a good show dog or not) I have talked with the breeder and i admit i made a mistake paying that much for a dog that wouldnt make the cut in the ring (so i found her a home for that reason and the others) I am only human. ill make mistakes as I know each and everyone of you have.
I HONESTLY just wanted some help and to get to know more basenji people, and not to be ganged up on just because everyone thinks they know so much more than me. Yes you might know alot but you dont know me and i take an extreme amount of offense when people start judging me when they have no idea what my situation is or who i am as a person....
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I rarely get on this site but have seen the dialogue that has taken place. Whitney reserved Marli from us in April and we believed we had made a commitment to her. Several times, she had attempted to make arrangements to come get her but these fell through. Through this, she had requested
that we do various things to help get her ready to go to her new home, which we willingly did. Whitney stated she paid $1200 for Marli, which is ABSOLUTELY not true! She paid almost half that and the remainder of what she paid was minimal board ($2/day) and what we charged for my husband taking time off work and delivering her to Whitney's doorstep four months after she was reserved! We learned much in this process. I guess we put more weight on our word to Whitney than on the welfare of the dog. We did say we wanted to take Marli back but would not give her a full refund. She wanted us to take Marli back and if she gave us another $100-200 dollars, she could get a puppy with full registration if we had another litter. We would not agree to this arrangement. We don't know if we are going to have another litter and IF we do, the puppies will receive Limited registration. This is what Whitney was told. I know we made mistakes in this whole process and don't need to be blasted. -
and im sorry if this sounds rude and mean but this is going to be my opinion. A few of you who breed basenjis seems like you are all that counts, that you guys think everyone else is a piece of crap because they want to start breeding. YOU started breeding at one time. Some people have to do it differently but truely want to do it for the good of the breed and want to start showing and do TRULY love the breed.
Let me just start by saying it is a real pet peeve of mine when people say they are sorry when they obviously are not. So I will not apologize for this post because I mean every word of it.
The breeders on here that you are addressing do not think they are "all that counts" but they do strongly feel that being a RESPONSIBLE breeder is the only way to do it. I am one of those people. Responsible breeders do come in different "flavors" so to speak but they have certain traits in common. They do the health testing, they breed for temperament, show the quality of their stock in the conformation ring and performance venues, and they take responsibility for every puppy for ALL its life. So in those ways, you are right they are inflexible in what breeding requires. If you are not willing to do those things then you are also right that they will call you on it every time because they have seen far too much of what happens when you don't take care of these things.
@misspodhradsky:What makes me so mad in this whole situation is because people act like im so bad and like they KNOW me. NO ONE KNOWS ME ON HERE…and that makes me so mad that people judge me without knowing me.
You are right, that know one knows you personally on this forum. On this forum, we are what we write. So if you don't like what people are saying to you then you need to think about what you are saying to everyone. You have not truly listened to any of the advice given and instead just defend doing exactly the same things that led to the problems you had with Marli.
@misspodhradsky:Sure I am trying to get a breedable basenjis but i am up front about it because i want the breeder to know that i DO want to IN TIME and I want a breeder to help me do it right and be behind me in helping me have the right experience.
If this statement were really true then you should be able to find a responsible breeder willing to co-own and mentor you. The puppy will have "strings" since any breeder who has invested their time and soul in building a line will not just give that over to a novice to anything with. You would have to agree to show, test, and if the dog proves to be show quality the stud would have to be approved by the co-owner.
I HONESTLY just wanted some help and to get to know more basenji people
If this is HONESTLY true then stop being so defensive and attacking everyone else and listen to what they are saying because they do have experience in this breed and have seen and made plenty of mistakes to know what they are talking about.
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Well, I should just keep quiet, but I can't. Honestly, if I had a small child and was out of work, I would NOT be taking on such additional responsibility of trying to build a breeding program. But perhaps I WOULD look to be mentored by a reputable basenji breeder - a good place to start. Animals, like children, are not disposable. And children don't even come into the world with a "clean slate". Nine months in the womb and genetics is well enough to produce a life that cannot be easily molded.
Ultimately, too many people look at breeding dogs as a cash cow.
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Well said Fran. I see these "cash" cow b's in rescue all the time.
Course, the "breeder" won't take them back… -
I have been reading this and been biting my tongue..but I have to say…Fran and Sharron..I am with you on this one.
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Patty, you are a sweet, tolerant, nice person. I can see this from your postings. But age really shouldn't serve as a shield when we're talking about the serious business of selling or breeding other living creatures. 19 years of age is not too young to learn to take responsibility for your own actions. That's what I tell the freshmen I catch plagiarizing or cheating in my college-level courses – I've heard "she's 19 years old, after all" from well-intentioned parents, but I file the academic dishonesty paperwork anyway. Now plagiarism is hardly comparable to the process of establishing a kennel... but I'm jumping in because that statement just struck a chord with me.
Back to the subject... By all accounts, Miss P. wants to do things expertly; the tone of her Praireland Basenjis website (which I think you've read carefully) conveys just that. But what I'm seeing pointed out on this public forum -- in brusque terms, perhaps, but honest ones -- is that something's amiss. $1000 - $1500 is a lot to pay for a "pedigreed" Basenji of questionable temperament, no matter how much was put into her. It was too much to pay to begin with, and the financial loss should be taken as part of the "lesson" that it really ISN'T that easy to acquire/show/breed dogs. Puppies are not blank slates, even at the age of 8 weeks. Since the seller in question is rehoming her dog because of a situational issue that she has admittedly been vague about (i.e. dog nipping son, seller not having time to work with 9 month old puppy), I think there is legitimate reason to question how she has the time to raise the 8 week old puppy that she is requesting as a trade.
There's questioning, and there's judgment. I think the former is called for here, and there has been a lot of that, but I haven't seen any 'bashing' or insults, just what some might call "brutal honesty."
So good, I just had to post it again
Someone who really has the breed's (and the individual dog's) best interest in mind isn't looking to make her money back….period.... She needs to chalk it up to live and learn, and try to find the best possible situation for the DOG...not her wallet. -
Way, way back in 1993, I got my first B.
Someone at the Evergreen Basenji Club told me and my husband that people don't breed B's for $, but for the love of the breed.
I guess you could do it for the $ if people are willing to pay $1000 but wouldn't it just be easier to not spend the $ in the first place?
I'm just a pet owner so know nothing about breeding. Unfortunately, I would keep all the puppies so would flunk as a breeder!:o
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Rather than spend time digging our heels in, I bet that the basenji organization in the thriving metropolitan of… SOUTH DAKOTA... is of little use to Miss P. If the power of the internet can help Marli find a forever home, so be it.
Just my 2 cents.
I just stumbled in on this thread by chance (haven't visited the forum in a while)….and while I see that the pup in question has already been placed, I had to comment still.
Not at all wanting to get in on the argument or take sides; I just had to mention that there IS at least ONE other Basenji person on this forum from the vast metropolis of South Dakota. (Hey, it WOULD be a metropolis if they counted cattle & ringneck pheasants as part of the population, LOL). There aren't many B's here; my vet had scarcely heard of the breed before I moved here & started bringing her mine, plus two fosters so far, LOL….
Myself & two Basenjis (and a B-mix, and a French Brittany) may not count as an "organization" (I think it takes at least four Basenjis before they can become organized & subversive, which is when they plot to enslave mankind...lol) we ARE always happy to help another Basenji person if they need it. Whether or not I "agree" with whatever just took place is irrelevant; it's apparently over and done with, anyhow. I'm just a fellow Basenji lover who also knows what it's like to live someplace without a "network" of people who share your love for the breed
I'm not a breeder but I do work for a pro hunting dog trainer/breeder with 40 yrs experience (I'm apprenticing with him) and I've had my Basenjis for 10 years, have fostered/transported for BRAT, etc. I am no breed expert...but, if nothing else I'd be more than happy to share my experiences with Miss P and offer any advice/help/suggestions, etc she may (or may not) want, from someone local. Heck we could even just have a Basenji play-meet or something. Give people in Mitchell something to talk about- three weird little dogs nobody can recognize, in one place at the same time. Likely to make the paper in that town, LOL
If Miss P's website is correct about her location, I live about an hour south of her in Armour; I'm in Mitchell about once a week to buy food, LOL.
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Sorry, I posted this in the wrong thread!
I must say, when I first started in B's, there was no one that I could find around. I didn't have much direction, but what I did do was go to the internet. I researched the breed to death, (still don't know everything, and if anyone EVER says they do, they have rocks for brains) and found my breeder-in Georgia! She is 15 hours away. The internet is a wonderful tool, but again not perfect. I did eventually find a mentor here, but again, not perfect. While in many ways, she has been very helpful, not in everyway. Over the years, I've started to realize, I have to make my own decisions, whether or not I have approval of the people up here. I've learned to listen more to opinions and have formed my own from those opinions.
That being said, Ms P does need help, but she also needs to realize that while she is being given advice, much of it the same from many people, it's not good if she doesn't take the advice and try it, or, at the very least, try to incorporate it into her own opinion, or start to ask questions about the advice being given. I would want to believe she needs help in making good choices, but again, she needs to listen to some of the older people with experience. Personally, I believe there is no stupid question, only the one not asked.
Here again, we go back to the internet. While it's a great tool, so is the telephone. You can only go so far with the written word, and it does not always convey correctly what someone is trying to say. The tone of the written word can be very different from the stated word and far different still from seeing someone and talking to them and seeing their body language. Truly, I am sorry to say this, but Ms P is very young and, from the tone (again this is something that comes across to me, but may not want to be the tone she conveys) of what she has written, is impatient and looking to move forward into breeding rather quickly without wanting to learn and wait to breed from a mentor. I know one girl who took about 12 years before she bred. She wanted to learn as much as possible. For myself, although I have been in dogs (different breeds) for a long, long, looooong time, (yeah, I feel that I'm older than dirt) things happened and I didn't breed basenjis as quickly as I wanted to originally. Crap happens. It put me back a few years, but I'm glad I waited and didn't delve into it when I wanted to. I learned so much more in those few years. I'm in the 'bad' books with some people up here, because I've struck out on my own, breeding wise, (some people just don't like my dogs) and have made decisions that I feel are in my best interests. Again, these are my decisions based on what I have learned, but I also didn't rush it.
I wish Ms P would take a step back, breathe deeply, and realize that many of the people here are not out to get her, but to inform her based on what they have learned over the years. Yes, the written word does sometimes come off rude, ignorant, seems like people are on their high horse, etc., but you also have to be able to come back and ask questions as to why they stated something like they did. Sometimes it's not what you think. I also have been on both sides of this particular fence. Sometimes I think people have been rude, but sometimes I have been rude as well. When people are passionate about something, their words seem to take a deeper meaning than what the reciever wants to hear. Everyone wants approval, sometimes, you just have to decide what you want, do it, and suffer the consequences. People will still be here for you when you make a bad decision, some of those people will tell you, 'I told you so' and some of the people will still support you even though they believe the decision you made was a crappy one.
Ms P, if you are still reading, take a step back, breathe deeply, and start to ask QUESTIONS! But don't be in such a hurry to think badly of the people, some of the people simply don't want you to make the same mistake twice, or the same mistake they have already made. We all make mistakes, it's just how you handle them in life that makes the difference. Life is still a huge learning experience and no one, NO ONE, is correct 100% of the time.
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Woofless id LOVE for us to have a basenji play date! I am VERY excited about this!!! You should email me sometime and we can set something up! email me at podhradsky@live.com. When i read that you were close that made me so excited, you have NOOOO IDEA!!!! !:D
Once you email me, ill email back and you will have my number. then we can bring out 'Senjis out to play! EEEPPP!!! You have no idea how much i love getting together with Basenji people! !!!!!
Thank you for posting and give me a shout next time ur in town! -
NoMrBdDogs. Thank you for putting it in kind words. I understand where you are coming from and I have been waiting. And Im not saying im even going to breed once I get this puppy. Its possible BUT im not saying I will. Alot of people think that just because I am getting a puppy means i will be breeding. Im not saying i MIGHT not…but im saying that of course i will wait. and i have been researching and doing my part to learn more about the breed. I think i have finally found a mentor that will help me. We have talked on the phone for hours on end and she was actually a Vet assistant. She is a very nice lady and has been in the business for over 30 years. She is kind when telling me things i need to know and helps me with the things that I know alot about--just need to improve.
Its not that I dont listen, its that I dont listen to people who are constantly rude when you dont have to be when you want to get a point across. I will take your words into consideration because you have been kind about it and i feel that you are not totally against me--even if no one else is...tho i know some are. I do want to learn and i do want to do what is best but I find it very hard to learn from people who treat me badly. And alot of people dont understand that but that is how I am. That is how I feel. I have always been the type to think deeply about the things that people who I feel strongly about say to me. For instance my brother. I am VERY fond of my brother. he is alot older than me and I feel that when he has something to say its important. I know alot of people dont understand this and im sorry if i am not like everyone else. I learn in a different way and if someone wants to be nice about explaining things to me then ill listen but once someone is rude and gets me hot, i cannot listen or believe one word they say, even if its the truth. I just wont bcause i dont deserve to be talked to in a rude way. I hope everyone understand.
I will be thinking about this and I will dig deep into everything when learning about this breed. I have been researching since 2002 when i got my first girl, Missy. She taught me alot about the breed. And then of course I have read up on it since then. Yes alot of people will say im jumping into it if i were to breed in 2-3 years...but in honesty, I wouldnt be to an extent. I have done the research, talked to the breeders, now i have finally found that mentor i have been searching for for a long time! If I do decide to breed, it wont be a jump into it kind of thing. I will be talking to my mentor and reasearching (as i feel you can never research enough. You learn something new everyday) Sure i will make mistakes, but everyone makes them. And with the help of the breeders I have been talking to, maybe ill make less mistakes than i need to.
Anyways for now I am just having a companion pet. Missy and this new puppy I am getting will be a companion too. They will live in my home and sleep in my bed as they always do. I love my dogs, they are my family first. I want to start showing her and possibly breeding later on in life if things go in that direction. I know that for sure not before two years old will she be bred if i do it. She will have:
Fanconi Syndrome test Brucellosis test
Thyroid disease test Hip dysplasia test
Inherited eye diseases test Hemolytic Anemia test
Coloboma test PMM (persistent papillary membrane) test
and then Malabsorbtion test.
If there is a test that tests these things it will be tested for because these are the ones which mainly affect Basnejis. These are the ones I want to test for and tho some May not be necessary, i will be doing them. Because the health of my dogs are most important.Anyways thank you for being kind about it. I will think hard about everything and do even more research and Basenji talking. I hope you have a nice day.
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Hips can not be done until after they are 2yrs old, only prelims are available before 2yrs. Recommended age for breeding is not till at least 3yrs by most responsible breeders. Coloboma would be know "before" you got a puppy if the breeder is responsible and has eyes checked before placement as would PPM. And Fanconi DNA status should be known before placement also…Brucellosis is normally required by any stud owner, however not only should be bitch be tested but the stud dog too. Add to your list, elbows and patella's should be done. Patella's can be done at 1yr by your regular Vet and forms can be found on OFA site to have the Vet fill out and then you pay the fee and send it to OFA. Elbows can be done when you do the hips.....
