Neutering - does it really change behavior?

[Tayda_Lenny]

wow, thanks for all of your input! I love the info on this forum!

Well, I have been recently thinking about having Lenny neutered… my original agreement w/ the breeder is that I would be his show home and that it would take her about a year to finish him (and i realize now that its not something that can have a timeframe accurately applied to it), and then he could be neutered and be purely a pet home. Well, it has been 2 years now and he has not yet won any points in any of the shows he's gone to (she says mostly cause he doesn't stand still on the block) and now that i've moved away from the breeder its obviously not possible for her to show him. She had talked about finding someone out here to show him for her, but its been 6 months and nothing has materialized from that search. i don't think she has looked into it much yet though, she has some of her own things going on that probably make it less of a priority. But she now says he probably won't be to his "prime" showing days for about 3 more years and wants him to stay intact.

So now I'm not sure what to do. I was trying to stay true to our original agreement of keeping him intact, but i really never planned to keep him intact indefinitely, which is what it seems like its turning into. If he's not ready to be shown, then there's no point in spending the $$ to do it, but I was just not expecting to keep him intact indefinitely.

He has been a ton better at the dog park, mostly cause I figured out that a lot of his aggression was because he was on leash. He still sometimes nips at dogs as they come into the park, and I'm working on how to distract him when new dogs come in (any tips are welcomed). Once he nips them once, he could care less about them... and then continues to play and run. He has been humping more recently... but it might be a dominance thing since lots of the lucky recipients are male.

So, I think he could really benefit from "taking the edge off"... I actually get sad sometimes when he goes into his crazy zone and I can't get him back. And if neutering him would help us to focus more on training, I think it would be great. Not to mention, neutering is obviously the responsible thing to do as a pet owner. I'm just not sure how to handle this situation... I did say I would keep him intact, but it was always "for a year or so"... and now it seems like an indefinite thing... which I'm not sure I'm ok with....

[Quercus]

@Ninabeana26:

How young is too young for a dog to be neutered? I only ask because I thought 6 months was the youngest possible but my friend just got a puppy from a shelter [who I would bet anything was not 8 weeks when she got him…he's a lab & sharpei mix & was actually smaller at "8 weeks" than Dallas was] but when she got him he was fixed already as it's shelter policy. Makes sense of course but I just didn't know it was physically possible…

Early spay and neuter is really popular in shelters…obviously because they can place the dogs with no fear of them reproducing later, at an early age. I *think six WEEKS is the earliest a skilled vet can do a spay or neuter. It is quite a bit trickier, particularly the neuter since usually the testicles haven't dropped down into the scrotum yet. The spay is pretty much the same procedure, just smaller...but vets do spay and neuter or rabbits, ferrets, etc...so small isn't necessarily an issue. Anesthesia in baby puppies (or baby anythings) is more of a concern...but the vast majority of these operations are successful.

Personally, I would avoid spaying and neutering my animals prior to six months, and usually I would wait until one year. The endocrine system is very interelated, and I think it *may be detrimental to remove the sex hormones prior to all the systems being 'complete'. But, I won't criticize shelters for doing what they need to try to stem the number of unwanted pets.

[etzbseder]

Yeah, I read somewhere that for Basenjis in particular, the best age is just around 10-11 months.

[Quercus]

@Tayda_Lenny:

wow, thanks for all of your input! I love the info on this forum!

Well, I have been recently thinking about having Lenny neutered… my original agreement w/ the breeder is that I would be his show home and that it would take her about a year to finish him (and i realize now that its not something that can have a timeframe accurately applied to it), and then he could be neutered and be purely a pet home. Well, it has been 2 years now and he has not yet won any points in any of the shows he's gone to (she says mostly cause he doesn't stand still on the block) and now that i've moved away from the breeder its obviously not possible for her to show him. She had talked about finding someone out here to show him for her, but its been 6 months and nothing has materialized from that search. i don't think she has looked into it much yet though, she has some of her own things going on that probably make it less of a priority. But she now says he probably won't be to his "prime" showing days for about 3 more years and wants him to stay intact.

So now I'm not sure what to do. I was trying to stay true to our original agreement of keeping him intact, but i really never planned to keep him intact indefinitely, which is what it seems like its turning into. If he's not ready to be shown, then there's no point in spending the $$ to do it, but I was just not expecting to keep him intact indefinitely.

He has been a ton better at the dog park, mostly cause I figured out that a lot of his aggression was because he was on leash. He still sometimes nips at dogs as they come into the park, and I'm working on how to distract him when new dogs come in (any tips are welcomed). Once he nips them once, he could care less about them... and then continues to play and run. He has been humping more recently... but it might be a dominance thing since lots of the lucky recipients are male.

So, I think he could really benefit from "taking the edge off"... I actually get sad sometimes when he goes into his crazy zone and I can't get him back. And if neutering him would help us to focus more on training, I think it would be great. Not to mention, neutering is obviously the responsible thing to do as a pet owner. I'm just not sure how to handle this situation... I did say I would keep him intact, but it was always "for a year or so"... and now it seems like an indefinite thing... which I'm not sure I'm ok with....

I would tell her all of what you just said here. If he is really that important to her breeding program, you can arrange to have him collected then neutered. In three years, she can evaluate whether or not he still fits what she needs for breeding, whether or not he is intact…kwim? He will still be the same dog. If it is just a show thing...well, things happen, people move, dogs don't mature at the rate or level we want them to. I think she would be understanding that an intact dog just doesn't work for your situation right now. I certainly would, as a breeder.

Good luck...these things can be touchy. Sometimes the breeder doesn't want exactly the same thing the owner does, but usually there is room for compromise. Don't be afraid to explain your concerns

[gbroxon]

Before he was neutered at 3.5 years old, Magnum would hump people when he got excited during play. That behavior completely stopped after he was neutered (it's been 8 mos.).

It was such a relief, because I could not get most people to believe that it had nothing to do with sex, and they ended up being very wary of Magnum and unwilling to interact with him.

I was in the same situation as you, Tayda. Magnum's breeder wanted to show him to his championship, which she figured would take about a year. Well, due to his SA issues, he gained a bit of weight, and after a couple of shows with no points (he was a major away from his CH), she decided to just let him be my pet and allowed him to be neutered (without lambasting me for allowing him to gain some weight–LOL!). Thank goodness! She hadn't planned on using him in her breeding program anyway--that's why she sold him to me. She did, however, want him to have a CH.

Maybe if you had a heart-to-heart with Lenny's breeder, you could get her to see your point of view? Lenny can't be the only dog she's hanging her hopes on as a CH? Personally, I wouldn't get him neutered without the breeder's okay, but then I work in a law firm. Does your contract say anything about it?

[tanza]

@Tayda_Lenny:

wow, thanks for all of your input! I love the info on this forum!

Well, I have been recently thinking about having Lenny neutered… my original agreement w/ the breeder is that I would be his show home and that it would take her about a year to finish him (and i realize now that its not something that can have a timeframe accurately applied to it), and then he could be neutered and be purely a pet home. Well, it has been 2 years now and he has not yet won any points in any of the shows he's gone to (she says mostly cause he doesn't stand still on the block) and now that i've moved away from the breeder its obviously not possible for her to show him. She had talked about finding someone out here to show him for her, but its been 6 months and nothing has materialized from that search. i don't think she has looked into it much yet though, she has some of her own things going on that probably make it less of a priority. But she now says he probably won't be to his "prime" showing days for about 3 more years and wants him to stay intact.

So now I'm not sure what to do. I was trying to stay true to our original agreement of keeping him intact, but i really never planned to keep him intact indefinitely, which is what it seems like its turning into. If he's not ready to be shown, then there's no point in spending the $$ to do it, but I was just not expecting to keep him intact indefinitely.

He has been a ton better at the dog park, mostly cause I figured out that a lot of his aggression was because he was on leash. He still sometimes nips at dogs as they come into the park, and I'm working on how to distract him when new dogs come in (any tips are welcomed). Once he nips them once, he could care less about them... and then continues to play and run. He has been humping more recently... but it might be a dominance thing since lots of the lucky recipients are male.

So, I think he could really benefit from "taking the edge off"... I actually get sad sometimes when he goes into his crazy zone and I can't get him back. And if neutering him would help us to focus more on training, I think it would be great. Not to mention, neutering is obviously the responsible thing to do as a pet owner. I'm just not sure how to handle this situation... I did say I would keep him intact, but it was always "for a year or so"... and now it seems like an indefinite thing... which I'm not sure I'm ok with....

If you don't mind, who is his breeder? While yes, some B's do not mature until they are 3 or so, if you add 3yrs to his current age that would be 5? Most dogs are typically finished by then. And if you are now not near your breeding and she is trying to find someone to show him, could get really messy… again IMO. Not sure that I would accept that he didn't get any points because he would not stand still?... I know many, many B's that live in pet homes that the breeders show them and they are just fine in the ring (with a little practice) and it is not like you let your "kids" run wild... they do have basic training.....
If it were me, I would offer to have him collected (at her expense) but that you really want to have him neutered.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Yes, I have expressed these concerns to her, and while she is honest that she does want him as an option for breeding… is open to coming to a compromise with me. So that is good. She did say that neutering him may not help with the aggression or humping... but I don't think any of her dogs are spayed/neutered, so i wanted to see what the experience on this forum was with neutering/spaying an "older" dog and how that affected their behavior. I'm definitely not trying to bad mouth her... so I hope thats not how it is sounding.

Question: Once he is neutered, he can not show and therefore can not finish his championship, and then probably wouldn't be bred... is that right? If that's true, then collecting from him and then neutering him wouldn't solve the issue, would it?

[lvoss]

@Tayda_Lenny:

Question: Once he is neutered, he can not show and therefore can not finish his championship, and then probably wouldn't be bred… is that right? If that's true, then collecting from him and then neutering him wouldn't solve the issue, would it?

Having a championship or not doesn't change the quality of the animal. If the animal is breeding quality and has something to offer the breed then not having its championship shouldn't keep it from being bred. Just as having a championship doesn't mean that dog should be bred or that anyone would be interested in using them. If the breeder thinks he is something she wants in her breeding program, collecting him allows her to keep that option open while allowing you to neuter your boy. If her only reason for keeping him intact is that she wants to have a championship on him then you still have an issue but these are two separate things. Also, he can still be titled in all other events except conformation so could still "prove" his value.

[Quercus]

@Tayda_Lenny:

Yes, I have expressed these concerns to her, and while she is honest that she does want him as an option for breeding… is open to coming to a compromise with me. So that is good. She did say that neutering him may not help with the aggression or humping... but I don't think any of her dogs are spayed/neutered, so i wanted to see what the experience on this forum was with neutering/spaying an "older" dog and how that affected their behavior. I'm definitely not trying to bad mouth her... so I hope thats not how it is sounding.

Question: Once he is neutered, he can not show and therefore can not finish his championship, and then probably wouldn't be bred... is that right? If that's true, then collecting from him and then neutering him wouldn't solve the issue, would it?

Well, she's right that it *may not solve the aggression and humping. You just wouldn't know until you try…it certainly wouldn't make it worse though

And correct, he couldn't be shown after being neutered. But that is where the compromise comes in. He certainly could still be used in a breeding program without a championship title. Having had a handful of judges award a dog for his physical merit doesn't mean the dog should be bred, nor does not having a championship title mean that a dog absolutely shouldn't be bred. It is up to the breeder to evaluate what the merits of the dog are, and whether he or she should use them in the breeding program.....not the judges' decision.

[Quercus]

Ha, ha…Lisa and I said almost the same thing, at the same time

[JazzysMom]

Keoki was neutered at about 9 mos and we did notice a difference in him, although how much of that was due to the neuter and how much to maturity.

He had seemed a bit high strung prior to, but then Jazzy is so darned laid back maybe Keoki was just a normal Basenji, LOL. He is STILL high energy, but just not as tense; he's less like a spring getting ready to let go.

Bryan had him collected before we had him neutered so that he can still breed him should he choose to do so in the future.

As to the showing – a subject about which I know very little -- it took Jazzy a while to learn to behave on the table and in the ring, but she still managed to get her CH w/in two years. She actually got her first points at her first show when she was c-l-u-e-l-e-s-s as to how to behave! It seemed to me, as a spectator at the shows, that the judges tend to be a little understanding of the younger dogs not being quite still on the table, etc.
Oh- and she was TOTAL pet and only saw Bryan and/or the show ring on show days. I did nothing to train her for them because I was even more clueless than the dog as to the hows of show training and didn't want to screw her up entirely!

This is a side note, but there's something about the way Bryan holds the leash or something, LOL. I even took my dogs to see him at a recent show, and as we walked the parking lot both dogs were pulling and sniffing and all excited with the environment. Then we met up with Bryan and Laurie {which totally excited them, especially Jazzy}, and he took them [one at a time] for a little stroll. As soon as the leash changed hands, they were different dogs, just trotting along side him as beautifully as could be. They look GOOOOOD on the end of his leash; they look like goofballs on the end of mine. LOL

[Tayda_Lenny]

ok, i see… It may have just been my own thinking that she wanted to wait until he got a championship to be bred. She has not specifically said that, I may have just made it up in my head. ha ha.

She did mention last night that she could have him collected but would rather not... can't remember why. Maybe I'll revisit that with her.

Thanks for all of everyone's advice and input! It really helps to get some other opinions and options! I hope we will be able to work something out that works for both of us.

[tanza]

@Tayda_Lenny:

ok, i see… It may have just been my own thinking that she wanted to wait until he got a championship to be bred. She has not specifically said that, I may have just made it up in my head. ha ha.

She did mention last night that she could have him collected but would rather not... can't remember why. Maybe I'll revisit that with her.

Thanks for all of everyone's advice and input! It really helps to get some other opinions and options! I hope we will be able to work something out that works for both of us.

Exactly, having a championship doesn't mean they should or should not be bred… many of us show for many different reasons and there are many dogs out there that have lots to offer the breed that have not finished their championship. As said, it is the breeders choice with what they have in mind for their breeding program....

And collecting costs money along with a year charge to maintain the frozen semen.

I had my boy neutered at 4yrs and within 6 months at home he went from lifting his leg back to squatting to pee... so he no long felt it necessary to mark his territory outdoors once neutered...(using safe sex)..... but there was a marked difference in him after being neutered.

[YodelDogs]

@lvoss:

The one I use charges $45/vial for collection and $60/year for up to 30 vials for storage.

:eek:

That's it?!?! The reason I have not had Baron collected is that it will cost me $458 for the first collection and $90 per year storage!!!! Would almost be cheaper for me to ship him to California to have it done LOL!

[lvoss]

The first collection cost $245 which included the account set-up, 4 vials collected and frozen, and the first year of storage. If I have the same boy collected at a later date or there are more vials collected during that first colelction it is $45/vial.

[YodelDogs]

Consecutive collections for the same male are $300 per collection at this facility. If the second collection is done more than 6 months from the first, another brucellosis test (add $48) is required. I wonder why it is so expensive here?

[Quercus]

@YodelDogs:

Consecutive collections for the same male are $300 per collection at this facility. If the second collection is done more than 6 months from the first, another brucellosis test (add $48) is required. I wonder why it is so expensive here?

That IS expensive. I can't remember how much I paid when I first had Querk collected. There was a one time collection fee; even though the first time we only got one vial (not heat season), and the next time we got five (heat season). I think it was less than $200 for the collection of a maximum of six vials, and then $100/year to store some large number of vials.

[MacPack]

Topper was neutered at age 5, he was getting very dog (especially Boxer) reactive at the dog park and I decided it was time to lower the testosterone level. He moped around for a couple of weeks and was about a month before he acted like himself. After about 6 months his aggression was much less, and he had really not ever been a humpy dog so no difference there. He is 12 1/2 and still more playful than either of my others. I neutered Ed as soon as we rescued him, he was between 2 and 3, he never seemed to notice! We see neutered and intact dogs at the park, and while many of the intact ones are just fine, if there is any problem, it is usually one of them that starts it. Unless you are breeding, I see no reason not to neuter.

Anne in Tampa

[Tayda_Lenny]

Well the dog park that we go to just made it against the rules to have unneutered dogs in the park. Sad, but I can understand… it is a very popular park and there have been a few incidents recently where some dogs have gotten hurt. Its obviously not ONLY cause they are unneutered, but I'm sure it doesn't help things. Lenny is not the main offender (but he is definitely not innocent either).

I just sent his breeder an email saying that I really think that I should have him neutered at this point. We live in a really small apartment and its just not fair to have him cooped up in here without anywhere to run. He's leash aggressive and I normally don't walk them too much around my apartment.... we go to the dog park 4 times a week or so so they can run. He and Tayda have made a bunch of doggie friends at the park (and I've made some human ones) and I just don't think its fair to keep him intact for something that doesn't seem too likely to happen (her finding someone to show him out here that is close enough to me to not make it a HUGE inconvenience for everyone) at the expense of him having fun and socializing w/ other dogs and getting much needed exercise...

I said we could arrange to have him collected if she wanted.... I hope she's not mad.... it's not how we planned it to be, but it is what it is.....

sigh...

[tanza]

@Tayda_Lenny:

Well the dog park that we go to just made it against the rules to have unneutered dogs in the park. Sad, but I can understand… it is a very popular park and there have been a few incidents recently where some dogs have gotten hurt. Its obviously not ONLY cause they are unneutered, but I'm sure it doesn't help things. Lenny is not the main offender (but he is definitely not innocent either).

I just sent his breeder an email saying that I really think that I should have him neutered at this point. We live in a really small apartment and its just not fair to have him cooped up in here without anywhere to run. He's leash aggressive and I normally don't walk them too much around my apartment.... we go to the dog park 4 times a week or so so they can run. He and Tayda have made a bunch of doggie friends at the park (and I've made some human ones) and I just don't think its fair to keep him intact for something that doesn't seem too likely to happen (her finding someone to show him out here that is close enough to me to not make it a HUGE inconvenience for everyone) at the expense of him having fun and socializing w/ other dogs and getting much needed exercise...

I said we could arrange to have him collected if she wanted.... I hope she's not mad.... it's not how we planned it to be, but it is what it is.....

sigh...

My personal opinion, as a breeder is this… the happiness of the dog and the owner is the most important thing... if a breeder thought that the dog was that important to their breeding program... they should have kept them... period... when place... the most important thing is the home... not showing, not breeding, ot anything... but the home...

I hope that all works out for you and you can get him neutered.... and enjoy him as a pet and family member.. again that is the most important thing!!! NO question...

And in the end.. he is your dog.. you are the owner... it is really your choice to decide the best for you family/lifestyle... I hope that his breeder is one that sees this... and knows that he is in the best of homes... period!!!