If you pay attention, there may be some subtleties that might give you a clue. Dogs pay close attention to body language. He may see the Collies as a threat because of something not easily noticeable, and perhaps he is generalizing if one of them has given him bad vibes and the others look similar enough for him to consider them a threat. My boy really didn't like small white fluffy dogs, I have no idea why....but perhaps because many were noisy and wanted to get in his face.
Blue tri basenji
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Thank you for sharing. I DID NOT know this. With this in mind, I agree it shouldnt have been done. and I am wrong when i say she tests. I guess i just assumed everyone did before they bred, she never actually told me. So i appologize, you are right on this matter. That is sad. I will talk to her about it and see what i can convince her to do as far as tests. I know when i am wrong and i admit it. so i appologize on this part. You are right
I know you don't think so, but those of us who have posted really do know what we are talking about and most of us keep track of the listings that come up on the sites frequented by BYBs and Puppymills because as Sharron has pointed out so many times these dogs are coming into rescue and it only because we collect the data when the litters are posted we can provide some info for the rescuers to work with.
You may want to read through the entirety of this thread, http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265
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My apologies, I was incorrect… it is 4 breeds, I misread and thought she had 2 and he had 4... instead of 2 and 2.
However ever 4 breeds, it is very difficult to properly socialize that many pups.. keep in mind that the other breeds come in season 2x's a year and a Basenji bitch usually has a season after whelping....
And as already pointed out, the pictures of her kennels is less then acceptable, in my opinion... and if you have kennel situations and can not afford to put up good kennel runs then you should not be breeding... Saying that it is "work" in progress is not (again in my opinion) acceptable conditions for any dog to be living in...
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The are planning basenji litters for Fall 2010/Winter 2011. They are planning Welsh Terrier litters in Fall2010/Winter 2011 and Spring 2011. Fall 2010 litters planned for Westies. Litter due Nov 2010 for mini dachshunds. So that sounds like the absolutely plan to have at minimum 4 litters at approximately the same time.
Again this is all public info, just search for Nocturnal Kennels on google and read the advertisement listings.
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Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqpVictoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpupWow, who knew a set of raw data in a table could be so crushing?
That was really sad to read.
I sincerely hope that whomever ended up with BAQPUP6 was notified of the Fanconi status of their pup. I see that the report didn't come in until almost two full months after the test was submitted (if I read that correctly?), so it seems likely that the pup was already sold before the results came in.
Meanwhile, I just wanted to add something to the conversation…
The internet must have done wonders to change the way that potential puppy buyers seek out and purchase "rare" breeds, like Basenjis. It seems to me that a breeder who is willing to cast their lot with national internet search portals like Breeders.net (or puppyfind.com) need to be prepared for Google to turn up some hard facts about the way they operate their business, as well.
If I was trying to research a kennel as a potential buyer, I would be incredibly glad to see a thread like this. Everything here that has been collected and "organized," as it were, leaves an information trail that allows a reader to come to a clear-headed decision. If it were up to me, I would decide to stay away, because I could not in good conscience support a kennel that assumes such little responsibility and has such apparent disregard for the future, long-term health of the breed. No matter how nice the person. Buying a pup from such a breeder essentially validates the irresponsible choices made to produce the pup.
The rest of the information regarding this breeder's personal affairs and health have no place in my judgment and seem out of line, in my opinion. Miss P., I realize you are just trying to defend someone you consider a friend, but as a matter of privacy, you may want to refrain from publicizing information about her health on her behalf. It does neither you nor her any good.
Finally, there are lots of perfectly nice people out there who love dogs and have great pets of their own, but should not be breeding for various reasons. That doesn't make them any less of a Basenji/Dachshund/West Highland White Terrier/Welsh Terrier lover, nor does it make them any less knowledgeable, or less of a person. In some cases, I'd think even more highly of a breeder if they just pulled out altogether... especially before greater damage to their respective breed(s) has been done. None of what I'm saying has anything to do with a person's character, but rather, a breeder's policies and their actions. Policy and action is all observable and documentable. And some of what I've seen out of this kennel is appalling.
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MissP-
I'm glad you've decided to stick around and ask questions. That's good. It's how everyone learns.
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MissP-
I'm glad you've decided to stick around and ask questions. That's good. It's how everyone learns.
Thank you agile Basenjis. I am glad I did too. I like to learn and I like to research. I wanted to stay on here because, besides feeling attacked, i have learned alot from these breeders. Especially lvoss because she helped me understand the genetics part
Which was very interesting to learn -
Ok I have talked to her and im going to explain this for her.
As i have said before, she got the dogs from the lady with the ignorant son. She took these dogs in out of the goodness of her heart and she cared for them and got them all tested. One of the females was already pregnant when she got her. (Bacardi) The owner who previously had them (the lady with the son) didnt know anything about genetics and she didnt understand that carrier to carrier was bad. So she bred them. I agree (i know this will be said) that lady shouldnt have been breeding knowing nothing about genes and heredity. but anyways she DID get that litter tested because she found out after testting the dogs that it was a carrier to carrier breeding. So that is why that litter is on the site. because she spent the money to test the puppies because she knew after getting the dogs that it was possible for an infected. She had someone interested in the puppy but because she found out it was positive she told the lady she wouldnt sell it to her. The lady was furious and sent her loads of mean emails saying how she promised her the puppy. but Sarah wouldnt sell it to her because she didnt know the lady and she didnt want it to possibly be bred to another dog. She had a friend who was well aware that the dog was affected and she sold it to them on a spay and neuter policy, which the guy did get it fixed, and she said that the dog is actually doing ok so far. its not showing symptoms of the disease but she keeps in contact with them. So this was not her fault. And i believe that. I KNOW she wouldnt do that on purpose, she loves her dogs. She had nothing to do with it and she couldnt help it but have the puppies and find good homes for them. She did what a responsible person would have done. She got the puppies tested. She found good homes for them. She denied a person because she didnt know how the puppy would end up and she got it a home where it was spayed and neutered.
That is the truth about the situation.
and its ok Tanza i have misread things too so no hard feelings.
I just want to say what i had said before. See how when that new person entered the picture they didnt know the truth about the situation about the infected puppy and now she has totally disregarded N.Kennels because of it? That is what I was getting at when i said that. New people coming onto the forum, its not fair to say things about her when you dont know the truth because it can affect people in bad ways, even if they are good people.
well anways i just wanted to share that.
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I am sorry but that is NOT the truth. She tested the puppies only after the puppy buyer told her there would be no purchase until the puppies were tested.
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I am sure she will find a "reasonable excuse" for you to anything you ask her but here are the facts.
1. The only health testing she is doing is Fanconi testing and that is only because the BCOA education is working well and people won't buy puppies from untested parents.
2. She is breeding dogs that do not have valid registration. I am sorry but there is no shortage of registered basenjis in this world that there is any valid reason to breed dogs that aren't registered.
3. She breeds multiple litters and multiple breeds each year often at the same time. There is no way to adequately socialize these puppies let alone pay for the type of care to do it right if she can't even find the money to do health testing on the parents. Vet care isn't cheap.
4. Every time you find a "hole" in her story she conveniently "remembers" a detail that she left out to make the story work.
I don't expect this to convince you because you clearly don't want to believe it but this is NOT a responsible breeder.
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ok well i like you so i am just going to drop this discussion so i dont upset you. We will choose to believe what we want and that is all we can do. Please understand i do not want to fight. So i am going to drop this discussion now because no matter what, i will not win an argument. I hope no one will hold it against me. but anyways that is that
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I just want to say what i had said before. See how when that new person entered the picture they didnt know the truth about the situation about the infected puppy and now she has totally disregarded N.Kennels because of it? That is what I was getting at when i said that. New people coming onto the forum, its not fair to say things about her when you dont know the truth because it can affect people in bad ways, even if they are good people.
By "the new person" do you mean me?
I didn't disregard Nocturnal Kennels because of one infected puppy. The rest of the two litters of puppies still contained carriers, yet they do not, as you say, and as their Breeders.net listing says, have any spay/neuter contract.
I am not saying that all carriers need to be spayed/neutered, but their breedings would need to be monitored. I am not satisfied with her explanation that NOT enforcing a spay/neuter contract allows procreative choices to future owners who want to make "BASENJIS FOR ALL!" I see it as a way to divert attention from the very real possibility that any future Fanconi-affected Basenjis coming from her lines, or Basenjis that enter rescue from poorly planned breedings and placements coming out of her lines, can and should be traced back to her kennel.
Those, and other reasons are why I would totally disregard her kennel. Too many breeds on site for my taste – Westies and Welshies and Doxies are not easy either, and prone to all SORTS of hereditary problems that also need to be tested for. She doesn't show her dogs. She's not part of the breed club. "Parents on site." Do I really have to go through the whole list?? These would be minimal standards even if I was only interested in a pet -- to say nothing of looking for foundation stock!
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By "the new person" do you mean me?
I didn't disregard Nocturnal Kennels because of one infected puppy. The rest of the two litters of puppies still contained carriers, yet they do not, as you say, and as their Breeders.net listing says, have any spay/neuter contract.
I am not saying that all carriers need to be spayed/neutered, but their breedings would need to be monitored. I am not satisfied with her explanation that NOT enforcing a spay/neuter contract allows procreative choices to future owners who want to make "BASENJIS FOR ALL!" I see it as a way to divert attention from the very real possibility that any future Fanconi-affected Basenjis coming from her lines, or Basenjis that enter rescue from poorly planned breedings and placements coming out of her lines, can and should be traced back to her kennel.
Those, and other reasons are why I would totally disregard her kennel. Too many breeds on site for my taste – Westies and Welshies and Doxies are not easy either, and prone to all SORTS of hereditary problems that also need to be tested for. She doesn't show her dogs. She's not part of the breed club. "Parents on site." Do I really have to go through the whole list?? These would be minimal standards even if I was only interested in a pet -- to say nothing of looking for foundation stock!
O ok. I didnt mean you as new to the forums, i mean new to this thread. and ok i understand where you are coming from. I just thought you had joined that thred just to say that you wouldnt buy from them. but ok and i didnt mean to insult you if i did. I just thought you entering the forum you judged her on what you read. but never mind. sorry
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Did you read this thread in its entirety?
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265Do you see how it relates to this thread? Especially the pitfalls of selling dogs intact?
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There is so much talk about irresponsible breeders on this thread with which I totally agree.
I've followed this thread with much interest as obviously we don't have such a major problem here (obviously because we are amuch smaller country). Our main problem with puppy farmers and b.yd breeders are in other much more commercial breeds.
I do disagree about numbers making for irresponsibility although I admit that you can't give all the same attention as you can if you only have one (or two) that's self evident, but you do as much as you possibly can to make their lives happy and complete. It's much harder work though and I empathise with those who do keep numbers responsibly. This is the main reason why I have stopped breeding as at my age I could possibly come to a point where I'm unable to give my Basenjis enough attention.
I must admit that I miss the puppies though and that's why I so love to see all your litter pictures!!
Mind you I know of breeders who would consider themselves very responsible and yet many of their dogs are crated or kennelled 23 hours out of 24!
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Did anyone see this review re: Nocturnal?
NICE PEOPLE, BUT NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE SET UP AND ENVIRONMENT THE PETS ARE IN
Uniqueantique has got to be planted to write that. I visited this place and yes the animals are not in cages,but… the are kept in dirt chicken wire pens. This breeder also is known for buying her breeding dogs from a known puppy mill. You are lead to beleive they are breeding akc standard puppies when most are CKC registered. I was not pleased at all with the misleading of quality dogs being produced by this back yard puppy mill.Quality not quanity huh, didn't even see any quality. I then realized you get what you pay for. Yes they were nice but I saw a different setting then unique writes.
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I saw that Linda as I am sure did others… however as they say a pictures is worth 1000 words... so their pictures of their facilities speaks volumes.
And Patty... I agree there are people that think they are responsible that crate 23 out of 24... however I don't think that it is.... but then I don't think that the set up of dogs in pens made of chicken wire and dirt is either.
As they say buyer beware... and people should always try to visit breeders before they commit.
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I dont agree that because the breeder in question has more than one or two breeds they automatically are a puppy farmer or are not giving their dogs the care and socialisation required. If you were to look at my website you will see 3, soon to be 4, breeds listed on there. We dont breed regularly (last year we had one litter and kept a pup to show) and we do health test and show our dogs, but by some peoples definition we would be having uncared for, poorly socialised dogs just by having them listed on the website which, as anyone who has met my doggie family can tell you, is far from the truth
I think too much can be read into breeders websites. Like, for example with mine, we have 4 breeds, however, they are split between two different homes and owners (me and my mum) but are owned and shown under a joint kennel name so they are all under the website with our joint kennel name. But, obviously its not really necessary to go into so much detail on a website (i certainly dont want people knowing details of where my individual dogs live from looking on my website!!) so we explain further when people ring up to enquire And, personally, i do believe that keeping any dog caged 23 hours a day is cruel… If a child were kept in a tiny room for 23 hours a day there would be uproar. But, i do realise this goes on quite often and thats sad. IMO dogs should be part of the family and be raised as companions, or if they are working dogs then i know a lot of people kennel them and i have no problem with that as they will spend most of the day working. But i never will understand why people buy a dog, then confine it to a tiny cell for the rest of its life, that makes me so sad. Between me and my mum we own 14 dogs, none of them are crated for any length of time. So, it is perfectly do able
There is so much talk about irresponsible breeders on this thread with which I totally agree.
I've followed this thread with much interest as obviously we don't have such a major problem here (obviously because we are amuch smaller country). Our main problem with puppy farmers and b.yd breeders are in other much more commercial breeds.
I do disagree about numbers making for irresponsibility although I admit that you can't give all the same attention as you can if you only have one (or two) that's self evident, but you do as much as you possibly can to make their lives happy and complete. It's much harder work though and I empathise with those who do keep numbers responsibly. This is the main reason why I have stopped breeding as at my age I could possibly come to a point where I'm unable to give my Basenjis enough attention.
I must admit that I miss the puppies though and that's why I so love to see all your litter pictures!!
Mind you I know of breeders who would consider themselves very responsible and yet many of their dogs are crated or kennelled 23 hours out of 24!
Unfortunately my two other breeds (labs and pugs) are two of the worst suffering with puppy farmers, it is a real problem for those of us who breed those dogs responsibly and carefully as a lot of times people dont care about whether a breeder has health tested or shown their dogs, they just want a CHEAP puppy. Its such a shame…
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And Jess, go to their advertisements, look at the conditions… then post your thoughts.
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Shameful…poor dogs.
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And Jess, go to their advertisements, look at the conditions… then post your thoughts.
Where are the ads?
ETA: My comments werent in defence of this particular breeder, just pointing out that its not always a good idea to generalise
