Looks can be so deceiving- here is an article of a woman who adopted a rescue dog in N.J. Dog looks like a basenji - even her vet thought it might be basenji. She did an Embark DNA test - no basenji. Turned out the dog was a mixture of Mountain Cur, Rat Terrier, Beagle, and Boston Terrier. link text
Blue tri basenji
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Now this is a question from me, not regarding her. If the clear is not possible, why do people put it on their websites as clear/normal if there is no such thing? I am curious about this myself. All other things non related. Im asking because i honestly dont know and would like to know the answer.
You didn't read my statement very carefully there is no such thing as "CLEAR BY PARENTAGE". There is such a thing as "PROBABLY CLEAR/NORMAL" but the individual dog must be tested to make that statement.
Here is a link to OFA's published statement on the matter, http://www.offa.org/dnacbp.html
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Her breeding stock for Fall 2008 were all tested AFTER the breedings had been done (you can verify this by the testing dates and counting back from the litters' birthdates) and are all public in the OFA database.
The dams of the two litters born that year were Bacardi and Victoria both carriersNocturnals Bacardi is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343451#animalNocturnals Victoria is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343452#animalTheir male
Nocturnals Crow Stopper
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343454#animalI am pretty sure the tested puppies are BAQPup for Bacardi's litter and VicPup for Victoria's litter.
Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqpVictoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpupThank you for sharing. I DID NOT know this. With this in mind, I agree it shouldnt have been done. and I am wrong when i say she tests. I guess i just assumed everyone did before they bred, she never actually told me. So i appologize, you are right on this matter. That is sad. I will talk to her about it and see what i can convince her to do as far as tests. I know when i am wrong and i admit it. so i appologize on this part. You are right
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You didn't read my statement very carefully there is no such thing as "CLEAR BY PARENTAGE". There is such a thing as "PROBABLY CLEAR/NORMAL" but the individual dog must be tested to make that statement.
Here is a link to OFA's published statement on the matter, http://www.offa.org/dnacbp.html
Yes after i read your reply, i see i did read that wrong. sorry. I didnt understand the clear by parcentage thing.
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Just my opinion, but I think she is playing you. It sounds like there are a lot of excuses as to why she does things the way she does. When I am in that situation, I start to wonder if the person is telling the truth..or at least the whole truth.
Just be aware…...
Thank you Quercus. I will be sure to be careful and aware. I have a feeling that she isnt but we both could be wrong so i will just be careful. I really like her tho and i dont think she will take advantage of me or knowingly hurt me. I honestly think she is a good person, whether breeding should be part of her life or not. But i do appreciate you looking after me (if you were or werent) and ill keep in mind what you said
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it's a beautiful color, I wonder why it is not an accepted color?
To know new knowledge, it is accepted. As long as the parents are AKC registered. I thought it was not but i have been otherwise told that it is now. So I guess it is..granted the parents are too
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Thank you for sharing. I DID NOT know this. With this in mind, I agree it shouldnt have been done. and I am wrong when i say she tests. I guess i just assumed everyone did before they bred, she never actually told me. So i appologize, you are right on this matter. That is sad. I will talk to her about it and see what i can convince her to do as far as tests. I know when i am wrong and i admit it. so i appologize on this part. You are right
I know you don't think so, but those of us who have posted really do know what we are talking about and most of us keep track of the listings that come up on the sites frequented by BYBs and Puppymills because as Sharron has pointed out so many times these dogs are coming into rescue and it only because we collect the data when the litters are posted we can provide some info for the rescuers to work with.
You may want to read through the entirety of this thread, http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265
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My apologies, I was incorrect… it is 4 breeds, I misread and thought she had 2 and he had 4... instead of 2 and 2.
However ever 4 breeds, it is very difficult to properly socialize that many pups.. keep in mind that the other breeds come in season 2x's a year and a Basenji bitch usually has a season after whelping....
And as already pointed out, the pictures of her kennels is less then acceptable, in my opinion... and if you have kennel situations and can not afford to put up good kennel runs then you should not be breeding... Saying that it is "work" in progress is not (again in my opinion) acceptable conditions for any dog to be living in...
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The are planning basenji litters for Fall 2010/Winter 2011. They are planning Welsh Terrier litters in Fall2010/Winter 2011 and Spring 2011. Fall 2010 litters planned for Westies. Litter due Nov 2010 for mini dachshunds. So that sounds like the absolutely plan to have at minimum 4 litters at approximately the same time.
Again this is all public info, just search for Nocturnal Kennels on google and read the advertisement listings.
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Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqpVictoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpupWow, who knew a set of raw data in a table could be so crushing?
That was really sad to read.
I sincerely hope that whomever ended up with BAQPUP6 was notified of the Fanconi status of their pup. I see that the report didn't come in until almost two full months after the test was submitted (if I read that correctly?), so it seems likely that the pup was already sold before the results came in.
Meanwhile, I just wanted to add something to the conversation…
The internet must have done wonders to change the way that potential puppy buyers seek out and purchase "rare" breeds, like Basenjis. It seems to me that a breeder who is willing to cast their lot with national internet search portals like Breeders.net (or puppyfind.com) need to be prepared for Google to turn up some hard facts about the way they operate their business, as well.
If I was trying to research a kennel as a potential buyer, I would be incredibly glad to see a thread like this. Everything here that has been collected and "organized," as it were, leaves an information trail that allows a reader to come to a clear-headed decision. If it were up to me, I would decide to stay away, because I could not in good conscience support a kennel that assumes such little responsibility and has such apparent disregard for the future, long-term health of the breed. No matter how nice the person. Buying a pup from such a breeder essentially validates the irresponsible choices made to produce the pup.
The rest of the information regarding this breeder's personal affairs and health have no place in my judgment and seem out of line, in my opinion. Miss P., I realize you are just trying to defend someone you consider a friend, but as a matter of privacy, you may want to refrain from publicizing information about her health on her behalf. It does neither you nor her any good.
Finally, there are lots of perfectly nice people out there who love dogs and have great pets of their own, but should not be breeding for various reasons. That doesn't make them any less of a Basenji/Dachshund/West Highland White Terrier/Welsh Terrier lover, nor does it make them any less knowledgeable, or less of a person. In some cases, I'd think even more highly of a breeder if they just pulled out altogether... especially before greater damage to their respective breed(s) has been done. None of what I'm saying has anything to do with a person's character, but rather, a breeder's policies and their actions. Policy and action is all observable and documentable. And some of what I've seen out of this kennel is appalling.
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MissP-
I'm glad you've decided to stick around and ask questions. That's good. It's how everyone learns.
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MissP-
I'm glad you've decided to stick around and ask questions. That's good. It's how everyone learns.
Thank you agile Basenjis. I am glad I did too. I like to learn and I like to research. I wanted to stay on here because, besides feeling attacked, i have learned alot from these breeders. Especially lvoss because she helped me understand the genetics part
Which was very interesting to learn -
Ok I have talked to her and im going to explain this for her.
As i have said before, she got the dogs from the lady with the ignorant son. She took these dogs in out of the goodness of her heart and she cared for them and got them all tested. One of the females was already pregnant when she got her. (Bacardi) The owner who previously had them (the lady with the son) didnt know anything about genetics and she didnt understand that carrier to carrier was bad. So she bred them. I agree (i know this will be said) that lady shouldnt have been breeding knowing nothing about genes and heredity. but anyways she DID get that litter tested because she found out after testting the dogs that it was a carrier to carrier breeding. So that is why that litter is on the site. because she spent the money to test the puppies because she knew after getting the dogs that it was possible for an infected. She had someone interested in the puppy but because she found out it was positive she told the lady she wouldnt sell it to her. The lady was furious and sent her loads of mean emails saying how she promised her the puppy. but Sarah wouldnt sell it to her because she didnt know the lady and she didnt want it to possibly be bred to another dog. She had a friend who was well aware that the dog was affected and she sold it to them on a spay and neuter policy, which the guy did get it fixed, and she said that the dog is actually doing ok so far. its not showing symptoms of the disease but she keeps in contact with them. So this was not her fault. And i believe that. I KNOW she wouldnt do that on purpose, she loves her dogs. She had nothing to do with it and she couldnt help it but have the puppies and find good homes for them. She did what a responsible person would have done. She got the puppies tested. She found good homes for them. She denied a person because she didnt know how the puppy would end up and she got it a home where it was spayed and neutered.
That is the truth about the situation.
and its ok Tanza i have misread things too so no hard feelings.
I just want to say what i had said before. See how when that new person entered the picture they didnt know the truth about the situation about the infected puppy and now she has totally disregarded N.Kennels because of it? That is what I was getting at when i said that. New people coming onto the forum, its not fair to say things about her when you dont know the truth because it can affect people in bad ways, even if they are good people.
well anways i just wanted to share that.
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I am sorry but that is NOT the truth. She tested the puppies only after the puppy buyer told her there would be no purchase until the puppies were tested.
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I am sure she will find a "reasonable excuse" for you to anything you ask her but here are the facts.
1. The only health testing she is doing is Fanconi testing and that is only because the BCOA education is working well and people won't buy puppies from untested parents.
2. She is breeding dogs that do not have valid registration. I am sorry but there is no shortage of registered basenjis in this world that there is any valid reason to breed dogs that aren't registered.
3. She breeds multiple litters and multiple breeds each year often at the same time. There is no way to adequately socialize these puppies let alone pay for the type of care to do it right if she can't even find the money to do health testing on the parents. Vet care isn't cheap.
4. Every time you find a "hole" in her story she conveniently "remembers" a detail that she left out to make the story work.
I don't expect this to convince you because you clearly don't want to believe it but this is NOT a responsible breeder.
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ok well i like you so i am just going to drop this discussion so i dont upset you. We will choose to believe what we want and that is all we can do. Please understand i do not want to fight. So i am going to drop this discussion now because no matter what, i will not win an argument. I hope no one will hold it against me. but anyways that is that
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I just want to say what i had said before. See how when that new person entered the picture they didnt know the truth about the situation about the infected puppy and now she has totally disregarded N.Kennels because of it? That is what I was getting at when i said that. New people coming onto the forum, its not fair to say things about her when you dont know the truth because it can affect people in bad ways, even if they are good people.
By "the new person" do you mean me?
I didn't disregard Nocturnal Kennels because of one infected puppy. The rest of the two litters of puppies still contained carriers, yet they do not, as you say, and as their Breeders.net listing says, have any spay/neuter contract.
I am not saying that all carriers need to be spayed/neutered, but their breedings would need to be monitored. I am not satisfied with her explanation that NOT enforcing a spay/neuter contract allows procreative choices to future owners who want to make "BASENJIS FOR ALL!" I see it as a way to divert attention from the very real possibility that any future Fanconi-affected Basenjis coming from her lines, or Basenjis that enter rescue from poorly planned breedings and placements coming out of her lines, can and should be traced back to her kennel.
Those, and other reasons are why I would totally disregard her kennel. Too many breeds on site for my taste – Westies and Welshies and Doxies are not easy either, and prone to all SORTS of hereditary problems that also need to be tested for. She doesn't show her dogs. She's not part of the breed club. "Parents on site." Do I really have to go through the whole list?? These would be minimal standards even if I was only interested in a pet -- to say nothing of looking for foundation stock!
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By "the new person" do you mean me?
I didn't disregard Nocturnal Kennels because of one infected puppy. The rest of the two litters of puppies still contained carriers, yet they do not, as you say, and as their Breeders.net listing says, have any spay/neuter contract.
I am not saying that all carriers need to be spayed/neutered, but their breedings would need to be monitored. I am not satisfied with her explanation that NOT enforcing a spay/neuter contract allows procreative choices to future owners who want to make "BASENJIS FOR ALL!" I see it as a way to divert attention from the very real possibility that any future Fanconi-affected Basenjis coming from her lines, or Basenjis that enter rescue from poorly planned breedings and placements coming out of her lines, can and should be traced back to her kennel.
Those, and other reasons are why I would totally disregard her kennel. Too many breeds on site for my taste – Westies and Welshies and Doxies are not easy either, and prone to all SORTS of hereditary problems that also need to be tested for. She doesn't show her dogs. She's not part of the breed club. "Parents on site." Do I really have to go through the whole list?? These would be minimal standards even if I was only interested in a pet -- to say nothing of looking for foundation stock!
O ok. I didnt mean you as new to the forums, i mean new to this thread. and ok i understand where you are coming from. I just thought you had joined that thred just to say that you wouldnt buy from them. but ok and i didnt mean to insult you if i did. I just thought you entering the forum you judged her on what you read. but never mind. sorry
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Did you read this thread in its entirety?
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265Do you see how it relates to this thread? Especially the pitfalls of selling dogs intact?
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There is so much talk about irresponsible breeders on this thread with which I totally agree.
I've followed this thread with much interest as obviously we don't have such a major problem here (obviously because we are amuch smaller country). Our main problem with puppy farmers and b.yd breeders are in other much more commercial breeds.
I do disagree about numbers making for irresponsibility although I admit that you can't give all the same attention as you can if you only have one (or two) that's self evident, but you do as much as you possibly can to make their lives happy and complete. It's much harder work though and I empathise with those who do keep numbers responsibly. This is the main reason why I have stopped breeding as at my age I could possibly come to a point where I'm unable to give my Basenjis enough attention.
I must admit that I miss the puppies though and that's why I so love to see all your litter pictures!!
Mind you I know of breeders who would consider themselves very responsible and yet many of their dogs are crated or kennelled 23 hours out of 24!
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Did anyone see this review re: Nocturnal?
NICE PEOPLE, BUT NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE SET UP AND ENVIRONMENT THE PETS ARE IN
Uniqueantique has got to be planted to write that. I visited this place and yes the animals are not in cages,but… the are kept in dirt chicken wire pens. This breeder also is known for buying her breeding dogs from a known puppy mill. You are lead to beleive they are breeding akc standard puppies when most are CKC registered. I was not pleased at all with the misleading of quality dogs being produced by this back yard puppy mill.Quality not quanity huh, didn't even see any quality. I then realized you get what you pay for. Yes they were nice but I saw a different setting then unique writes.
