Looks can be so deceiving- here is an article of a woman who adopted a rescue dog in N.J. Dog looks like a basenji - even her vet thought it might be basenji. She did an Embark DNA test - no basenji. Turned out the dog was a mixture of Mountain Cur, Rat Terrier, Beagle, and Boston Terrier. link text
Blue tri basenji
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ok i understand where all of you are coming from. I was just trying to defend her because alot of people on here are calling her a puppy mill, though not knowing her, and i think it is not right to do so. You are giving her a bad name tho u dont know her.
But i do understand where you are coming from, but please just dont sit there and bad mouth her when she isnt here to defend herself is all i ask.
please?And in total they have 6 breeds, I assume that she and her husband live in the same place? Therefore they have 6 breeds, border line Puppy Mill, In My Opinion. And as far as breeding them all at one time, obviously you have to breed them when they are in season… So I am sure that it is very possible that there are multi litters on the ground at one time.
I would seriously doubt that they are her pets... they are her/his income
Tanza, do you KNOW this? Do you KNOW she has 6 breeds and where did you hear/learn it from? Im really just wondering, i am curious as to your source of it and how you know? im asking as kindly as i can type. Have you talked to her in person before? or was it from another person who told you. And When did you hear this because it could have been lately she went down on breeds. M. O., just wondering. NOT trying to erouse anyone into an argument, im just asking.
And yes they may come into season at the same time but that doesnt mean you HAVE to breeds them. You can keep male dogs away from the females if you dont want a litter…and she does this. She choosen a few to breed and plan this and then she socializes the puppies that you have. And she DOES keep some as her pets, i didnt say ALL of them but she does keep the ones that are house acceptable, the ones she wants inside. I know for sure of a couple Basenjis that live inside. I believe she has maybe 5 basenjis in total outside. I cant be for sure so dont quote me on that, but i believe thats right. And like i said its AC and Heated when needed.And, I just want to point out that people here are not judging this woman personally, none of us know her. But we are judging her actions…and there is nothing unfair about that. All of us will be judged by our actions fair or not.
Ok i understand this. And i appreciate you being nice about it as you have always been nice to be and i honestly thank you and respect you alot. but i think for her not to be here to defend herself, its not right of everyone to express things the way they are doing because if someone who is new to the breed or to the forums or on the topic comes here and reads that "she is a puppy mill" and all, that they will believe it without knowing the truth or at least hearing her side of the story. you know? Dont you see it from my side too? This is honeslty just IMO, but i dont think that is fair to her.
this is MY OPINION and i hope you wont think badly of me)But breeding them without registration is and is NOT responsible. If they are not registered then they should be spayed/neutered. If the registration cannot be legally transferred to her name then they should be spayed/neutered.
I do agree with this but in the same sense what if later on she does find a way to legally transfer them, she just doesnt know right now? Or what if somehow the jerk of a guy decides to be nice and hand her the papers (i dont know that that will ever happen but its possible i think) and if she does get them all spayed and neutered and then finds a way to register them then that is a loss to the genetics as everyone has been telling me is important to keep the breed alive. IMO, i dont mean to offend or rile up anyone im just asking, isnt that true? Maybe im wrong, i appologize if i am…
If in a recession you can't afford to test then you can't afford to breed.
She tests when the funds are available and when she plans to breed. She wont breed unless the tests have been done. And if she cant afford the test, she simply doesnt breed a pair in which she doesnt know health wise/test result wise.
There is no such thing as clear by parentage with a marker test, every dog must be tested not "to be on the safe side" but to actually know its marker status. To breed without that testing is outright irresponsible and no justification for purposely breeding without it is going to change that fact.
Now this is a question from me, not regarding her. If the clear is not possible, why do people put it on their websites as clear/normal if there is no such thing? I am curious about this myself. All other things non related. Im asking because i honestly dont know and would like to know the answer.
How do you feel about this breeder having produced Affected offspring when a test was available to prevent it? She has done exactly that so by your own stated opinion this is a wrong thing and yet you are here defending her.
Do you KNOW this? Like has she told you so? Im just wondering and im HONESTLY not trying to be rude or mean about it im honestly just wondering because i dont know, But I defend my friends because that is the kind of person i am. I dont like to hear people bad mouth other people, i just dont and never have. and when a friend is involved then I do just that. even if it causes me to get into an argument (which i honestly dont like being in desputes, I like things to be happy and no tension.) I hope no one takes my words offensively, i just am asking.
This is a fact… so this person should not be breeding if she has physical/mental limitations.... or the funds to properly test before breeding.
She has limitations but they are not like…i dont know how to put it. she still gets along fine and is active, its just some things she forgets and the physical part she cant sit behind a desk for a long time, or go for long car rides and things like that. I was just saying she has them but it doesnt make her useless. and the funds part: she does test before she breeds and if she cant test she doesnt breed. or she only breeds a dog that she knows are tested. I ask you this from MY POINT, not defending her. I am again curious. Wasnt it you that said breeding a carrier is the only way to preserve the breed? so even if she breeds the carriers to the clears, how is that bad? PLEASE dont take that in a rude or defensive way i am asking strictly to learn. I would like to know why that would be bad for my own experience.
Speaking as a rescue person, this woman should have these puppies sold with a spay/neuter contact. It helps stop the "littering".
Anyone who sells basenji that are not show quality, or going to improve the breed, need to make sure the puppies are fixed.Being a fellow rescuer, i understand where you are coming from. but, and again this is MO, but i have had alot of rescue dogs and alot of people who signed the contract saying they would spay and neuter and then they moved or changed their number/contact info and I now do not know where they are to ensure they have spayed and neutered….but anyways but being someone who is looking for a Basenji as a pet is where its hard to tell you what im trying to say. When you want a pet, you dont want to pay ALOT of money, especially if you are just going to spay and neuther them anyways(which is even more money). Lets say a breeder asks for 900 for a pet price. Honestly to get a puppy for that cost for a pet is crazy to me. If i want to spend that much money i wouldnt want to spay it, id want to start showing and give it a chance to help the gene pool. She sells hers for i believe like 500. Which would be ok to spend to spay and neuter it. But she doesnt want to charge more for you to have to keep it from being unfixed because that is, i am assuming, how she was raised. Maybe how we were raised has alot of things to do with how we are now. So she just sells them for a flat fee for the owner. No more money for extra rights. ALOT of people i know think that way. Whether its right or wrong, she is one of them. But i really do understand the spay and neuter part. If i got into breeding id do the spay and neuter contract and if they wanted a show id do co-ownership or REALLY get to know them before id ever think about just giving a puppy of mine to a breeder. But im just saying that,--and I REALLY hope people dont take this out of context--, but to pay alot for a puppy to just be a companion to live in the home and never to breed, 900 is alot. (And I know it costs alot to breed but if you are in it for breeding and bettering the breed and not the money, wouldnt you want your puppies to go into a good home anyways even if the price was lower and you KNEW they were going to be spayed? Everyone says its not about the money so breeding a litter, knowing how much it costs, shouldnt be about selling them for 900 when a simple 500 would do for jus that, a pet. THIS IS MY OPINION, and i REALLY hope no one will use it against me, im just trying to say how i feel..whether its wrong or not) 900 is just an example, also.
Anyways, im just saying is all. I know i will be bashed around for a few things i say but im only telling my opinion just as everyone else does. ...anyways. ill wait for some responses as i know ill get alot. but this is just MO and nothing else
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Miss P…have you actually met this woman...in person?
I just wanted to bump this up. I can't remember if you said you have personally visited her kennels, or if this has all been phone and photo correspondence.
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I have plans of visitin in the future but yes all of this is over the phone, emails, and photos.
I know this will get alot of attention as I havent met in person but I know she is a good lady and we have talked for a LONG time and I feel as if i HAVE visited her. Since we live so far away i havent been able to actually meet her but i do plan on going up and visiting and talking even more eventually. I know this will be hard to believe for alot of people on here since i am defending her so much, but she is a friend and I trust her alot.
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Ok. my "flaming suit" lol
Here goes… I am not going to be rude about my reply, ill just tell you the facts. She has 2 breeds of her own, and her husband breeds two breeds (4) there are dacshunds, westys, terriers(cant remember the bred) and basenjis. They do NOT breed them ALL at the same time. She breeds maybe one or two litters (from one or two of the breeds) Most of these dogs are her pets. They live indoors with her, however some are outside.You ask how I know that there are 6 breeds? Please read you own post, you are the one that said it?
And there is no one that I know of that could possibily raise well socialized puppies with that many breeds.
And not sure that I understand your question about the Fanconi testing and there is no such thing as "clear/normal"? All of the test results aremarked "PROBABLY" because it is a linkage test and most of us have links to OFA site and the test results. So there most certainly is "clear/normal"…. and since there are now 3569 Basenjis in the Fanconi data base that have been tested, the results are right on what you would expect to see knowing the pedigrees. Either you are a responsible breeder or you are not.. and if responsible no need to defend.
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I have plans of visitin in the future but yes all of this is over the phone, emails, and photos.
I know this will get alot of attention as I havent met in person but I know she is a good lady and we have talked for a LONG time and I feel as if i HAVE visited her. Since we live so far away i havent been able to actually meet her but i do plan on going up and visiting and talking even more eventually. I know this will be hard to believe for alot of people on here since i am defending her so much, but she is a friend and I trust her alot.
Just my opinion, but I think she is playing you. It sounds like there are a lot of excuses as to why she does things the way she does. When I am in that situation, I start to wonder if the person is telling the truth..or at least the whole truth.
Just be aware…...
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Do you KNOW this? Like has she told you so? Im just wondering and im HONESTLY not trying to be rude or mean about it im honestly just wondering because i dont know, But I defend my friends because that is the kind of person i am. I dont like to hear people bad mouth other people, i just dont and never have. and when a friend is involved then I do just that. even if it causes me to get into an argument (which i honestly dont like being in desputes, I like things to be happy and no tension.) I hope no one takes my words offensively, i just am asking.
Her breeding stock for Fall 2008 were all tested AFTER the breedings had been done (you can verify this by the testing dates and counting back from the litters' birthdates) and are all public in the OFA database.
The dams of the two litters born that year were Bacardi and Victoria both carriersNocturnals Bacardi is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343451#animalNocturnals Victoria is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343452#animalTheir male
Nocturnals Crow Stopper
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343454#animalI am pretty sure the tested puppies are BAQPup for Bacardi's litter and VicPup for Victoria's litter.
Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqpVictoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpup -
it's a beautiful color, I wonder why it is not an accepted color?
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You ask how I know that there are 6 breeds? Please read you own post, you are the one that said it?
I said FOUR (4) I dont see where you got 6 from. I said she has 2 and her husband has two and i named the 4 breeds they breed.
And there is no one that I know of that could possibily raise well socialized puppies with that many breeds.
I personally would not breed more than one breed but i understand that if you have only like say 2-3 litters (even if they are different breeds) then i think you CAN socialize them. obviously this is going to be a agree to disagree type of situation.
And not sure that I understand your question about the Fanconi testing and there is no such thing as "clear/normal"? All of the test results aremarked "PROBABLY" because it is a linkage test and most of us have links to OFA site and the test results. So there most certainly is "clear/normal"…. and since there are now 3569 Basenjis in the Fanconi data base that have been tested, the results are right on what you would expect to see knowing the pedigrees. Either you are a responsible breeder or you are not.. and if responsible no need to defend.
I must have read your post wrong. I thought you had said there are no such thing as clear/normal results. but ok i understand now. Look Tanza I know we obviously would never be able to work with each other as we both have very strong opinions and its clear you do not like me. I am not going to fight with you or get offensive with you because i dont think it would be right to do so…so i am going to stop right now.
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Now this is a question from me, not regarding her. If the clear is not possible, why do people put it on their websites as clear/normal if there is no such thing? I am curious about this myself. All other things non related. Im asking because i honestly dont know and would like to know the answer.
You didn't read my statement very carefully there is no such thing as "CLEAR BY PARENTAGE". There is such a thing as "PROBABLY CLEAR/NORMAL" but the individual dog must be tested to make that statement.
Here is a link to OFA's published statement on the matter, http://www.offa.org/dnacbp.html
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Her breeding stock for Fall 2008 were all tested AFTER the breedings had been done (you can verify this by the testing dates and counting back from the litters' birthdates) and are all public in the OFA database.
The dams of the two litters born that year were Bacardi and Victoria both carriersNocturnals Bacardi is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343451#animalNocturnals Victoria is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343452#animalTheir male
Nocturnals Crow Stopper
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343454#animalI am pretty sure the tested puppies are BAQPup for Bacardi's litter and VicPup for Victoria's litter.
Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqpVictoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpupThank you for sharing. I DID NOT know this. With this in mind, I agree it shouldnt have been done. and I am wrong when i say she tests. I guess i just assumed everyone did before they bred, she never actually told me. So i appologize, you are right on this matter. That is sad. I will talk to her about it and see what i can convince her to do as far as tests. I know when i am wrong and i admit it. so i appologize on this part. You are right
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You didn't read my statement very carefully there is no such thing as "CLEAR BY PARENTAGE". There is such a thing as "PROBABLY CLEAR/NORMAL" but the individual dog must be tested to make that statement.
Here is a link to OFA's published statement on the matter, http://www.offa.org/dnacbp.html
Yes after i read your reply, i see i did read that wrong. sorry. I didnt understand the clear by parcentage thing.
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Just my opinion, but I think she is playing you. It sounds like there are a lot of excuses as to why she does things the way she does. When I am in that situation, I start to wonder if the person is telling the truth..or at least the whole truth.
Just be aware…...
Thank you Quercus. I will be sure to be careful and aware. I have a feeling that she isnt but we both could be wrong so i will just be careful. I really like her tho and i dont think she will take advantage of me or knowingly hurt me. I honestly think she is a good person, whether breeding should be part of her life or not. But i do appreciate you looking after me (if you were or werent) and ill keep in mind what you said
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it's a beautiful color, I wonder why it is not an accepted color?
To know new knowledge, it is accepted. As long as the parents are AKC registered. I thought it was not but i have been otherwise told that it is now. So I guess it is..granted the parents are too
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Thank you for sharing. I DID NOT know this. With this in mind, I agree it shouldnt have been done. and I am wrong when i say she tests. I guess i just assumed everyone did before they bred, she never actually told me. So i appologize, you are right on this matter. That is sad. I will talk to her about it and see what i can convince her to do as far as tests. I know when i am wrong and i admit it. so i appologize on this part. You are right
I know you don't think so, but those of us who have posted really do know what we are talking about and most of us keep track of the listings that come up on the sites frequented by BYBs and Puppymills because as Sharron has pointed out so many times these dogs are coming into rescue and it only because we collect the data when the litters are posted we can provide some info for the rescuers to work with.
You may want to read through the entirety of this thread, http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265
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My apologies, I was incorrect… it is 4 breeds, I misread and thought she had 2 and he had 4... instead of 2 and 2.
However ever 4 breeds, it is very difficult to properly socialize that many pups.. keep in mind that the other breeds come in season 2x's a year and a Basenji bitch usually has a season after whelping....
And as already pointed out, the pictures of her kennels is less then acceptable, in my opinion... and if you have kennel situations and can not afford to put up good kennel runs then you should not be breeding... Saying that it is "work" in progress is not (again in my opinion) acceptable conditions for any dog to be living in...
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The are planning basenji litters for Fall 2010/Winter 2011. They are planning Welsh Terrier litters in Fall2010/Winter 2011 and Spring 2011. Fall 2010 litters planned for Westies. Litter due Nov 2010 for mini dachshunds. So that sounds like the absolutely plan to have at minimum 4 litters at approximately the same time.
Again this is all public info, just search for Nocturnal Kennels on google and read the advertisement listings.
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Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqpVictoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpupWow, who knew a set of raw data in a table could be so crushing?
That was really sad to read.
I sincerely hope that whomever ended up with BAQPUP6 was notified of the Fanconi status of their pup. I see that the report didn't come in until almost two full months after the test was submitted (if I read that correctly?), so it seems likely that the pup was already sold before the results came in.
Meanwhile, I just wanted to add something to the conversation…
The internet must have done wonders to change the way that potential puppy buyers seek out and purchase "rare" breeds, like Basenjis. It seems to me that a breeder who is willing to cast their lot with national internet search portals like Breeders.net (or puppyfind.com) need to be prepared for Google to turn up some hard facts about the way they operate their business, as well.
If I was trying to research a kennel as a potential buyer, I would be incredibly glad to see a thread like this. Everything here that has been collected and "organized," as it were, leaves an information trail that allows a reader to come to a clear-headed decision. If it were up to me, I would decide to stay away, because I could not in good conscience support a kennel that assumes such little responsibility and has such apparent disregard for the future, long-term health of the breed. No matter how nice the person. Buying a pup from such a breeder essentially validates the irresponsible choices made to produce the pup.
The rest of the information regarding this breeder's personal affairs and health have no place in my judgment and seem out of line, in my opinion. Miss P., I realize you are just trying to defend someone you consider a friend, but as a matter of privacy, you may want to refrain from publicizing information about her health on her behalf. It does neither you nor her any good.
Finally, there are lots of perfectly nice people out there who love dogs and have great pets of their own, but should not be breeding for various reasons. That doesn't make them any less of a Basenji/Dachshund/West Highland White Terrier/Welsh Terrier lover, nor does it make them any less knowledgeable, or less of a person. In some cases, I'd think even more highly of a breeder if they just pulled out altogether... especially before greater damage to their respective breed(s) has been done. None of what I'm saying has anything to do with a person's character, but rather, a breeder's policies and their actions. Policy and action is all observable and documentable. And some of what I've seen out of this kennel is appalling.
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MissP-
I'm glad you've decided to stick around and ask questions. That's good. It's how everyone learns.
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MissP-
I'm glad you've decided to stick around and ask questions. That's good. It's how everyone learns.
Thank you agile Basenjis. I am glad I did too. I like to learn and I like to research. I wanted to stay on here because, besides feeling attacked, i have learned alot from these breeders. Especially lvoss because she helped me understand the genetics part
Which was very interesting to learn -
Ok I have talked to her and im going to explain this for her.
As i have said before, she got the dogs from the lady with the ignorant son. She took these dogs in out of the goodness of her heart and she cared for them and got them all tested. One of the females was already pregnant when she got her. (Bacardi) The owner who previously had them (the lady with the son) didnt know anything about genetics and she didnt understand that carrier to carrier was bad. So she bred them. I agree (i know this will be said) that lady shouldnt have been breeding knowing nothing about genes and heredity. but anyways she DID get that litter tested because she found out after testting the dogs that it was a carrier to carrier breeding. So that is why that litter is on the site. because she spent the money to test the puppies because she knew after getting the dogs that it was possible for an infected. She had someone interested in the puppy but because she found out it was positive she told the lady she wouldnt sell it to her. The lady was furious and sent her loads of mean emails saying how she promised her the puppy. but Sarah wouldnt sell it to her because she didnt know the lady and she didnt want it to possibly be bred to another dog. She had a friend who was well aware that the dog was affected and she sold it to them on a spay and neuter policy, which the guy did get it fixed, and she said that the dog is actually doing ok so far. its not showing symptoms of the disease but she keeps in contact with them. So this was not her fault. And i believe that. I KNOW she wouldnt do that on purpose, she loves her dogs. She had nothing to do with it and she couldnt help it but have the puppies and find good homes for them. She did what a responsible person would have done. She got the puppies tested. She found good homes for them. She denied a person because she didnt know how the puppy would end up and she got it a home where it was spayed and neutered.
That is the truth about the situation.
and its ok Tanza i have misread things too so no hard feelings.
I just want to say what i had said before. See how when that new person entered the picture they didnt know the truth about the situation about the infected puppy and now she has totally disregarded N.Kennels because of it? That is what I was getting at when i said that. New people coming onto the forum, its not fair to say things about her when you dont know the truth because it can affect people in bad ways, even if they are good people.
well anways i just wanted to share that.
