To those of you that are having problems with mouthing, holding the muzzle is not a good solution. Substitute a toy for your "body parts" or totally ignore the pup and the minute that the pup settles down, praise.
Marking problem
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Oh surely to the dog, they're friends after the dog pees on him. :p
I dunno…I almost un-friended Querk when he peed on me!!!!
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Haha tanza, that they don't care, doesn't mean that they don't know what they are doing. :p
Again, I disagree
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Actually, I don't think that in their excitement they differentiate human from tree. So it isn't that they don't care, they really don't make a choice they just pee because it is a convenient upright object. It would actually be easier to fix if they were making a choice because then their brain would be more engaged.
Exactly… I agree Lisa..................
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If excitement didn't play a role in it, then they would piss on our legs when were standing around our own yard, or standing in the kitchen..they don't (at least all the ones I know don't) they do it when they are highly stimulated by the environment.
So you really think that when they get excited, they don't know anymore that you are standing next to them? That they just see an object instead that is OK to mark?
Dogs don't do anything without a reason, and they will allways know what's happening around them. If they get excited and need to pee at that moment, and use whatever they can find to lift their leg to, even if it's a human, then that's lack of self-control and/or a lack of respect. Peeing is often a sign of dominance, a way to impress others. If they don't find anything upright to lift their leg to, they can allways squat down to pee.
If they get so excited that they don't know anymore that you are a human, they also won't respond to whatever you say, and that would mean you don't have enough control over your dog or the bond between the 2 of you isn't stong enough. You should allways be able to get his attention to you, and for that, he will allways need to be aware of you, where you are… -
Take this as you will, but, when I was showing Shadow, if he didn't want to show that day, he would pee on the closest person. It wasn't a preference, he was just showing his displeasure. If he didn't get the first person, he went to another person. I learned to keep a very, very close eye on him. He also did it when he went to Rally shows. And it wasn't every show, just when he didn't feel like being there. He has never shown any inclination to do this at race events or anywhere else.
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Again, I disagree
You make it seem like it is a natural and logical thing to do for a dog.
Reading the commends here, they do it when excited, when displeased, when nervous…
It's not that once a dog get's into a different state of mind, that he forget's the world around him. Knowing what's happening around them is one of the strongest instincts in a dog, simular to hunting instinct. Their survival depends on it. Except in cases of extreme fear, a dog never stops watching what's happing and will allways be allert.
Let's take Kipawa's examples. Don't seem situations in wich the dog would be so excited he forgets the rest of the world. The 3rd example she mentions, they just met a woman with 2 dogs on leash. So what could trigger the behavior there? Excitement propably not, displeasure also seems weird, nervous the same... I'm pretty sure that there, the dog knew pretty well what he was doing and that it was most likely a sign of dominance. The dog saying 'look what I can do, and it's so easy, ain't I the best?'.
Examples in the show ring. Maybe your dog get's really excited, but still, lifting his leg against yours, is still a sign of disrespect. Some people here said they reacted, and he did it just once. But according to what you say, they would get so excited again next time, that they again go into an other state of mind, forget all what's around them, and would do it again, cause they aren't aware of it when they do it.
In dogs is not that abnormal to establish dominance that way, and you have to teach them that it's not OK when they do it with humans. And they way I see it, if your dog tries to do it with his owner, something in the relationship between the 2 of them isn't what it should be. You aren't clear enough to your dog, he doesn't respect you like he should, bonding is not optimal and it's then just one of the many ways your dog can make that clear to you, so you know you got to do something about it. And this is a behavior that you can work on and that can be solved. Not something that you just have to deal with because the dog can't help it. -
I don't think I ever said the behavior can't or shouldn't be corrected, did I? I said only that I agreed that many times it is done with the comments on why/how it happens. And that many times the dog is unaware of the "item" they are trying to mark.
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You make it seem like it is a natural and logical thing to do for a dog.
Reading the commends here, they do it when excited, when displeased, when nervous…
It's not that once a dog get's into a different state of mind, that he forget's the world around him. Knowing what's happening around them is one of the strongest instincts in a dog, simular to hunting instinct. Their survival depends on it. Except in cases of extreme fear, a dog never stops watching what's happing and will allways be allert.
Let's take Kipawa's examples. Don't seem situations in wich the dog would be so excited he forgets the rest of the world. The 3rd example she mentions, they just met a woman with 2 dogs on leash. So what could trigger the behavior there? Excitement propably not, displeasure also seems weird, nervous the same... I'm pretty sure that there, the dog knew pretty well what he was doing and that it was most likely a sign of dominance. The dog saying 'look what I can do, and it's so easy, ain't I the best?'.
Examples in the show ring. Maybe your dog get's really excited, but still, lifting his leg against yours, is still a sign of disrespect. Some people here said they reacted, and he did it just once. But according to what you say, they would get so excited again next time, that they again go into an other state of mind, forget all what's around them, and would do it again, cause they aren't aware of it when they do it.
In dogs is not that abnormal to establish dominance that way, and you have to teach them that it's not OK when they do it with humans. And they way I see it, if your dog tries to do it with his owner, something in the relationship between the 2 of them isn't what it should be. You aren't clear enough to your dog, he doesn't respect you like he should, bonding is not optimal and it's then just one of the many ways your dog can make that clear to you, so you know you got to do something about it. And this is a behavior that you can work on and that can be solved. Not something that you just have to deal with because the dog can't help it.I have never seen a dog mark on another dog to show dominance…and I have never read any reference to it by any credible researcher....neither in dogs, nor wolves. They WILL mark over each other's urine...but not on each other intentionally.
I never said that it is something you just have to deal with...you can definitely teach your dog not to do it...did you see my comment about catching them in the act?
I don't subscribe to your belief in dominance in dogs...and you will find that most progressive trainers and behaviorists don't either. We will have to agree to disagree.
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And just to shed some more light. Dogs and humans do things all the time while not paying much attention. That is why car accidents exisit…people don't usually choose to run off the road, they get distracted. Do you have kids? I can guarantee you that a distracted seven year old will not be able to actually get the pee in the toilet 50% of time.
It would be great if every puppy and human child came out of the womb able to give their complete and undivided attention to any task at hand...but that isn't reality. But that doesn't mean that they do it because of a lack of respect. It also doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taught what is acceptable and what isn't.
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All of you have provided me with much food for thought. Thank you everyone for the comments. That's why I love this forum, because Kipawa is unique in that he is Kipawa, so even things disagreed upon may offer a clue to his behaviour and why he does something.
Kipawa LOVES the dog parks where these incidents happened, so for him, I am tending to think that there definitely is excitement involved, which could add to him wanting to pee, and yes, if an owner was around a dog he was hanging with, he might also pee on the human due to a small display of dominance. I also can see the validity and I do understand what some of you are saying, regarding peeing on the most upright thing, which could be a person.
What to do? I will watch him and be closer to him (may require me to do sprint training!) if I see him seeking out an area where people are just standing around. And Therese gave me an excellent idea - make sure he is 'peed out' before entering the park.
I can tell you that Kipawa and I have a very strong bond. He is with me wherever I go in the house, and when outside and off leash in a fenced park, he always looks back to see where I am. Of course, the bond can always grow. With this in mind, I am talking to another dog behaviour class. He passed his puppy class with flying colours, so it's time to continue with his learning process.
Again, thanks to everyone.
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I don't subscribe to your belief in dominance in dogs…and you will find that most progressive trainers and behaviorists don't either.
After reading Dog Sense, How the New Science of Dog Behavior Can Make You a Better Friend to Your Pet by John Bradshaw, I'd have to agree.
I grew up with the idea that dogs are going to try and dominate and control their people unless the people show the dog that THEY (the people) are the pack leader (shades of Cesar Milan).
Bradshaw's contention is that, during the process of domestication, "…dogs that showed a tendency to control their human hosts would have been selected against..."
I found Brandshaw's book very interesting and it dispelled a lot of myths we've all grown up to believe about dogs. I'd highly recommend it to anyone.
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What's going on here? It happens so fast that I can't get to him before he does it.
If you have to put a belly band on him at the park to stop the behavior, do it. Duct tape it on if necessary. Give him a lot of time to pee and mark, then band him. This said by someone who had a dog who would mark me and my daughter ONLY any opportunity he got, in the house or outside if we had company, or even if company had been here and LEFT.. and in public. It was clearly a "mine mine mine!" comment to others. But he also did it at other times, so you tell me. I don't know why.
I know, but I don't believe that they aren't fully aware of what they are marking.
I think they know pretty well what they are marking, how excited they may be.Precisely, and I am surprised to see people suggest otherwise. Dogs have a sense of smell, if nothing else. Nor do they lose their minds. And truly, if this were the case, massively more dogs would indeed mark people.
If excitement didn't play a role in it, then they would piss on our legs when were standing around our own yard,.
Quite a few do.
I have never seen a dog mark on another dog to show dominance…and I have never read any reference to it by any credible researcher....neither in dogs, nor wolves. They WILL mark over each other's urine...but not on each other intentionally.
I don't subscribe to your belief in dominance in dogs.
First, yeah they do. I have known several dogs (Rotties, huskies, even a chihuahua among others) who do indeed mark other dogs as well as their pee. I thought, maybe I just know unusual dogs… but nope. Google turns up a lot of people saying their dog marks other dogs. I have never seen wolves do it, but then, dogs are bred down quite differently.
And sorry, the new fad is to relabel "dominance" as status or other buzz words instead of to understand the behavior. New buzz words won't help. Some dogs want status or dominance or whatever word you want to use over different things. Some dogs want that "status" over food, others over where to sleep. I don't see that it helps at all to claim it isn't dominance but status, but whatever.
To say that dominance is bred out as a blanket statement is utterly simplistic and oh yeah, wrong. Every breed varies, dogs within breeds vary. Whether you call it status or dominance, there are many dogs with behaviors that indicate their intent to control or show they are indeed top dog over some things. People just don't get that it depends. I have seen dogs who had to have the pick spot, enter doorways first, mark over every other dogs' pee... but could care less who ate first. But we sure agree the response to dog behaviors is positive training, not some macho alpha roll, hitting even with a newspaper or aversive responses most of the time. (I say most because I am more than willing to use a belly band to make them mark on their own self, double sided tape to stop counter surfing, etc
)Bradshaw has basically repackaged nothing new, same thing many trainers have said for 20 yrs, but I applaud he is getting to the public. I object to his interviews claiming he has a new spin on positive (claims that older trainers did it to be fair, etc when they said precisely the same reasons he says, for like, oh forever) And who can object to someone touting positive training. But anything new? Nothing I found.
However, I also find conflicts in his talks. One actually applies to aggression/dominance with dogs. He acknowledges that studies of wolves in zoos are not natural and don't compare to natural structure, that they fight and show aggression due to abnormal forced packs. In the wild, wolves leave when unwanted or to avoid fights/death. In a zoo, they can't so aggression escalates. He fails to comprehend and acknowledge that precisely the same problem occurs in homes. When 2 dogs fight, they can't just leave and find a new pack. Then humans do stupid things to try to force them to get along and often end up with injured or dead animals. You can label it with whatever word you want, but the behavior is there.
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Ugh….I never said dominance doesn't exist in dogs, of course it does. I said I don't agree with voodoo's 'belief'...I suppose I SHOULD have said 'perception' of dominance. Let me clarify...I don't believe dogs pee on people to state dominance to them...I DO believe that some dogs MAY pee on people to claim 'ownership' of them..and I DO think that MOST dogs (and particularly Basenjis) don't do this unless they are distracted, particularly if they are young, unneutered males.
And I did say that I have never SEEN dogs mark each other...and I have seen a lot of dogs in my life...but if you say you have, then you have.
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I've read all the posts and I personally am still not sure. I have occasionally seen Basenjis pee on other Basenjis and the peed on dog (often a bitch) doesn't react at all - why? It would be interesting to see some research on this - there must be some - people seem to research almost everything!!
My boys usually let me know when they are going to pee by sniffing for the right spot so I'd naturally know what they were planning!
I think I've posted before about the male Chi who peed on one of our very well known allrounder judges (Albert White) in the ring after he'd given it Best of Group!! At the time it seemed rather like an act of contempt!
Any way Kipawa has been given lots of good advice but I must say I've never encountered a Basenji boy who has been peed out!! They always seem to manage another dribble!!!!
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and I DO think that MOST dogs (and particularly Basenjis) don't do this unless they are distracted, particularly if they are young, unneutered males.
This leads me to question which I will also talk to Therese about - Kipawa is 9 months old and almost 26 lbs. As he is our companion dog (no breeding), should we start to think of neutering him? I understand about the bone growth, and how lack of it can produce a 'wheatie' look in the legs. I'm willing to get x-rays done to check on the bones. I just don't want Kipawa forming habits that are undesireable.
The other thing that makes me think it's time for Kipawa is he is quite dominant, he was from day 1, and he continuously 'tests the boundaries'. I stand up to him quite well, but I'm now comparing waiting an additional 3 months for growth against the benefit of neutering him.
I know breeders want to wait 1, 1 1/2, or 2 years before they suggest neutering a basenji (companion dog), but I'm wondering if it could be different for each individual dog, and that it now could be now for Kipawa, to ensure he remains the great dog he is.
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Honestly, "testing" the boundaries is a way of life for a Basenji, IMO…. Neutered/spayed or not.
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I only briefly skimmed the comments… Just going to respond based on my experience.
Bowdu (my Shiba) did this for a while, mostly trying to pee on other dogs, but occasionally trying to pee on people too. He started when he was about two years old (well after he was neutered). I managed to fix the habit fairly quickly, I think.
The first few times he did it to dogs, it seemed exactly because the other dog was acting "tree-like." After the initial greeting, if the other dog would stiffen or look away, not moving, then Bowdu would take the opportunity to move up to the dog's side and pee on them. It would only take a second. Very embarrassing.
I learned to watch for his body signals -- you CAN catch them, but you have to watch carefully and quickly. For Bowdu, it was the way he approached, strutting hard and fast, then sniffing at a certain angle, and the way he moved away from the dog he was sniffing. The sniff ALWAYS comes first. And if he looked like he was about to move into position to aim where he just sniffed, I would make a sharp sound to distract him or swoop in there and shoo him away. Not sure how conscious he was of his actions, but he definitely seemed to "snap out" of some kind of reverie when I went in there with an AH-AH or clapped my hands.
I only needed to correct him a few times over the course of several consecutive days before he immediately stopped doing it as much. And then he tried it maybe once a week. To once every few months. To less than that, now. He still has it in him, but I no longer feel like I have to be hyper-vigilant about it. I've usually got an eye on him anyway.
When he marks other dogs, I do think he's being a jerk with some awareness of what he's doing. I'm not calling it dominance because I'm not sure that's what it is, and that seems like too easy of a way to label the behavior.
Whatever's going through his mind, I don't think it's the same thing as when he's marking humans. When he's marked humans in the past, he seems to be more fixated on a smell, not the person who's underneath the pants. He's never tried to pee on a human wearing shorts with their legs exposed, for example. So, knowing his quirks, I just watch him carefully and try to be quick enough to catch him in the act, or with that intensely focused look on his face, and snap him out of it. He DOES knows better, he just needs to be reminded of that sometimes.
Long anecdotal comment, but hopefully it helps.
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What behaviors, besides this peeing, are you seeing?
I deal with many people who expect neutering to be a magic fix for adolescent behavior. They are then puzzled and dismayed when the dog is still doing the things after the neuter. Most of the behaviors that they are dealing with go to a certain lack of impulse control so that they have rude greeting behaviors with human and canine, poor leash manners, inattention, etc.
No matter what you choose to do, I highly recommend to continue with training. I find that the best way to help with the adolescent behaviors especially the boundary pushing because it helps to clarify the boundaries.
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Kipawa, I'm not sure if you are still reading this thread, but it's very entertaining. It's amazing how a "P" story can travel around the world and get great feedback. I wish there was a LIKE button in this forum!
Anyway, I think Voodoo has some great insight. My sister takes her male basenji to the same dog park, everyday, since she adopted him over a year ago. She thinks that Bacchus believes this is HIS land, for whenever a human enters his magical gates, Bacchus must scamper to the gates and watch the entrance.
On the other side of the coin, there are picnic tables at this park, and many owners allow their dogs to picnic table surf… my sister let Bacchus too, until he decided that table surfing was okay at home... and then at our parents house, lol.
Therefore, whenever Bacchus hops on the table at the dog park, my sister reprimands him and makes him get down. The other dogs are still chilling out on the table, but my sister insists that he gets down. Guess what that little B does?
He goes to another table, where my sister is NOT and hops on it. And patiently sits until she sees him. And then there's the silent war... does she stomp over there and demand that he gets DOWN, or does she let him "WIN" the war?
I Love Basenjis. Capital L.
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I'm totally reading this thread - so much great information. I've been in contact with Therese and Kevin, and have decided to wait until Kipawa is 1 year old at the end of September, at which time we will re-evaluate things to determine if neutering is the best decision for his health and temperament. In the meantime there will be more dog behavior classes combined with outings to parks where we can control Kipawa better.
Thanks so much for all the info.
