Need good advice on serious topic:

[Chealsie508]

Debra, thanks for the articles, I'll certainly read them. I appreciate the consoling words about food aggression, first time it happened it felt like the end of the world! I absolutely need to work harder at the leave it command and then treating, he isn't very good at it as I described. I'll need to build up my expectations as you said, I can't expect him to leave a valuable stolen item before I can expect him to leave a sock alone. Good point about the looking too, we don't always have great eye contact as I find he always looks at my hands; which is the bad part about teaching him target touching my hands as his first command! I'm also thinking of maybe sitting next to him while he eats, because although his outbursts only come from stolen foods, he isn't entirely comfortable with me petting him while eating, he would prefer I stand across the room but in the same room! He doesn't growl or show displeasure but he shows the slightest stiffness and stops eating, as if to wait for me to finish petting him. That says to me that he would prefer I just leave him alone, and I want that to be curbed before developing into an issue. Appreciate all the advice.. Gives me a lot of tools

On a side note: I really need to get Control Unleashed! I keep saying I'm going to but this time I really will

[eeeefarm]

When he brings it back does he give it to you readily? I find it interesting that he enjoys retrieving. It isn't usually a favourite activity for Basenjis, and all of mine had to be taught except for my current boy, who would bring back his plush toys. I subsequently taught him to retrieve objects he doesn't prefer to carry, and to deliver them into my hand, rather than dropping them. (somehow I don't think I could persuade him to retrieve a food item without eating it, but that would be an interesting challenge!)

Could Oakley's snarkiness when caught stealing be because he is anticipating a correction, or do you feel it is all about wanting to keep the food?

[eeeefarm]

@Chealsie508:

we don't always have great eye contact as I find he always looks at my hands; which is the bad part about teaching him target touching my hands as his first command!

Do you clicker train? Easy, peasy to teach eye contact. Just wait till he looks at you, then click/treat. Rinse, repeat. Did it with mine in about 5 minutes and put it on cue. My cue is "eyes" rather than something that takes longer to say.

[Chealsie508]

I too was shocked Oakley liked to retrieve as I heard its uncommon in the breed, since day one he would chase balls, plush toys, sticks, and bring them back to me and give them to my hand… He also does the feet drop but I see his wheels turning that say " if I hand it to her then she will throw it faster"! Needless to say he also has his goober moments where he retrieves but stops short of me and plops down with the object.
Oakleys behavior is BOTH his anticipation of a correction and not wanting to give up his stolen good! I can't even say it's one more than the other; it's a total 50:50

Yes, we are a 100% clicker train household, he responds very well to this method

[eeeefarm]

@Chealsie508:

Oakleys behavior is BOTH his anticipation of a correction and not wanting to give up his stolen good! I can't even say it's one more than the other; it's a total 50:50

Yes, we are a 100% clicker train household, he responds very well to this method

If it's anticipation of a correction, then absolutely go with what Debra and others have been suggesting. What I do with mine will likely make it worse. It's not a game you want to play if you're not certain of winning. I make no bones about being a bit "old school" in some things, I started with dogs a long time ago and I use what works for me. I also use all the tools in the bag, and I love the clicker for teaching new behavior. It works faster than anything else.

[Chealsie508]

I do hope eventually I will be able to just take a forbidden object because he is not territorial nor guarding with anything else, toys, treats, kibble, vegetables, even cheese and meat that I give him, he's so spoiled I even hold his apples for him so they dont roll around my floor! At the very least I'd like to be able to predict reactions in the future to know whether taking or trading is necessary. I do understand what yOu mean when you say, basenjis can catch onto stealing as a means to get a good trade

[lvoss]

Do you play It's Yer Choice with him? I start mine with the way the video shows with them earning their treats by just showing enough to control to let me give them the treat without them moving toward the treat but as we advance I add eye contact versus focusing on the treats as a criteria for earning them.

[DebraDownSouth]

Chelsea both Sayblee and now Cara love to retrieve. However Cara only does it in the house, never outside.

Yes, dogs would prefer you leave them alone when eating. And if there weren't an issue, I advise people to do just that. Sadly, you have an issue. I would not just sit beside. Every bite that goes in his mouth should come out of your own hand. I have done things like put my hands in bowls once I knew biting not a risk, and deposit a REALLY nice treat. Before long they want your hands in there to see what you leave. However, first, from your hands only. He no longer gets to own a bowl. It won't take long to link person/eating as a dual connected thing.

[dcmclcm4]

Are you able to feed him pieces of kibble/treats when sitting? How about giving pills? I train all my dogs including my rescues to be able to do these things. I also train them that when they have a nylabone I am able to take it away and then give it back to them. I start out with a very short time frame that I have it and increase the time. I make it into a game.

Most of my dogs eat in their crates but I am able to put my hand over the food while they are eating and then remove it. I am also able to pet their head while they are eating also. With rescues, this is after they are extremely comfortable with me and feeding. I have not rescued a dog that has been starved and I doubt this would work with a dog like that.

Jennifer

[Chealsie508]

Debra, you are probably right, i should hand feed him, I ha a feeling I should do more during feeding so this doesn't develop into a problem. I'll start that tonight.
Jennifer- I can absolutely hand feed him without problems, it's only with stolen food which had now progressed into a mild discomfort with me around his food. He's even great with regular nylabones and toys but if it's an edible toy like an edible nylabone he growls at you if you try to take it, he will lete touch him during feeding but he stops eating and I feel the slightest tension in his body so I know he is trying to tell me " mom, not now.. I'm trying to eat!"

[renaultf1]

The only thing I have to add is I think you need to be very careful with him around children if they have food or toys until you get this under control. I think if a kid dropped food or a toy and he was loose it is possible a similar "theft/bite" situation could occur.

[Chealsie508]

I completely agree, which is why Oakley will not be in contact with kids without direct supervision, and I will refrain from putting him in the same house with anyone under ten until I can hopefully, fix this behavior. Unfortunately that means he will be crated at home and bot enjoying the Christmas festivities but its in his and my best interest

[Kipawa]

I just had a thought - this is not just a basenji thing, it's a dog thing. Could it be that protecting the self found 'garbage food' is a throw-back from times when dogs/wolves had to hunt to find their food and then guard it from other predators?

Anyway, I know that doesn't help you with the problem, but others have given some great advice. I know you love Oakley and that you will work this out with him.

If this post seems off the wall, forgive me. I have pneumonia and the antibiotics are making me kind of out of it.

[DebraDownSouth]

Oh gosh Fran, hope you feel better soon. Not that ANY time is good to be sick, but holidays are the worse.

[Kipawa]

Thanks so much Debra. I've never had pneumonia before… it's kind of nasty. But it will pass with some TLC and a warm basenji on my lap. After all, aren't they almost a 'cure all'?

[Buddys Pal]

Hey Oakley's Mom! I have a good book recommended to me from a behaviorist. It is called "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson. Have not read all through it, but your boy may just be a resource guarder. Your vigilance with him at this time is crucial. The trading of the object does not let him think less of you as a leader. On the contrary, a resource guarder does so because things have been 'taken' from him in the past…..The trading allows him to trust you even more, that is won't have to 'guard' anything because you are a benevolent giver! Trading is not weakness. Does not matter what happened to get him here, just go forward from here with exercises that lead him to trusting the 'HAND'. When you said to him 'eat' that was a cue for you to use to divert his guarding mind and pay attention to you and change his little brain synapses to a good thing. No teeth and posturing allowed. I have not read the whole book, but you want to avoid the posture stage. You want avoid this point to avoid aggression. TRADING is good and changing his mind about guarding 'things' is the way to manage this; and possibly never happen again. Good Luck!

[Quercus]

@Buddys:

Hey Oakley's Mom! I have a good book recommended to me from a behaviorist. It is called "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson. Have not read all through it, but your boy may just be a resource guarder. Your vigilance with him at this time is crucial. The trading of the object does not let him think less of you as a leader. On the contrary, a resource guarder does so because things have been 'taken' from him in the past…..The trading allows him to trust you even more, that is won't have to 'guard' anything because you are a benevolent giver! Trading is not weakness. Does not matter what happened to get him here, just go forward from here with exercises that lead him to trusting the 'HAND'. When you said to him 'eat' that was a cue for you to use to divert his guarding mind and pay attention to you and change his little brain synapses to a good thing. No teeth and posturing allowed. I have not read the whole book, but you want to avoid the posture stage. You want avoid this point to avoid aggression. TRADING is good and changing his mind about guarding 'things' is the way to manage this; and possibly never happen again. Good Luck!

I don't have time to go thru this whole post right now…and this response is so awesome, I am just going to quote it As some of you know, our Ivy is the queen of resource guarding. I feel her response was heightened because I did exactly what EEE described when Ivy was a young pup. My escalation of response encouraged her to guard harder, and eventually snap. I changed to a trading method, and her behavior softened *some. The damage was done. She never growls at me now when she has something, but she will growl at Tim, and occasionally snap at the kids if they push the issue. The problem with insisting that the dog respects you, is that if it works (which it won't with *every dog) it doesn't generalize to every human for the dog. Where as when you condition the dog to feel "happy" or "glad" when someone wants something they have, that translates in the dog's brain to all humans.

Gotta go!

[eeeefarm]

For what it's worth, I have never dealt with theft in any other way than immediately taking the object from the dog, and I have never been nipped under these circumstances by any of the many dogs I have owned, nor have any of them nipped or bitten any other person. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but most people I know (my generation, I suppose) deal with it the same way with the same results. I do think much depends on the relationship you have with the animal, and the consistency of your response. In my household there has always been a clear understanding of what belongs to the dog and what doesn't, and one rule I have is that nothing is ever "let go" because "it really doesn't matter" or "I'm too busy". I'm just throwing that out because I think some problems start very small and we don't notice them until they escalate. Dealing with horses…...who outweigh me by a factor of ten......I have learned to nip disobedience in the bud, before it becomes something I really can't handle. The result is animals I can control with the lightest of touches, that respect me and others, and that are as safe for kids to be around as is possible with a large, reactive animal.

[Quercus]

@eeeefarm:

For what it's worth, I have never dealt with theft in any other way than immediately taking the object from the dog, and I have never been nipped under these circumstances by any of the many dogs I have owned, nor have any of them nipped or bitten any other person. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but most people I know (my generation, I suppose) deal with it the same way with the same results. I do think much depends on the relationship you have with the animal, and the consistency of your response. In my household there has always been a clear understanding of what belongs to the dog and what doesn't, and one rule I have is that nothing is ever "let go" because "it really doesn't matter" or "I'm too busy". I'm just throwing that out because I think some problems start very small and we don't notice them until they escalate. Dealing with horses…...who outweigh me by a factor of ten......I have learned to nip disobedience in the bud, before it becomes something I really can't handle. The result is animals I can control with the lightest of touches, that respect me and others, and that are as safe for kids to be around as is possible with a large, reactive animal.

Or, it could be that you haven't had a dog that was willing to bite over some item that they stole. Lucky you! Maybe it is how you handle your dogs as pups…or maybe you have just been lucky to not have a dog with temperament issues...or maybe dogs just like you better than they like other people....I don't know...

I do agree though, that many people don't address a guarding issue the instant they see it. If people did, that would help tremendously for a dog that has a tendancy to guard. Every one of my dogs has tried guarding an item as a pup...it hasn't worked, and they gave it up...except Ivy. I am not about to advise people to 'gain their dog's respect' by taking away an item when the dog is snarling and lunging at them. You and I might be able to tell whether or not the dog is bluffing...but do you want to put the person you are advising at risk by suggesting they try to figure it out on their own?

[eeeefarm]

@Quercus:

You and I might be able to tell whether or not the dog is bluffing…but do you want to put the person you are advising at risk by suggesting they try to figure it out on their own?

Oh, I absolutely agree with you there. People have to do what they are comfortable with, and if they are not confident it won't work out well. I spoke of my own experiences, and I admit that I (and most of my friends) am "old school" because that is very much our generation. Quite frankly, a dog that snarked at someone when I was a child would probably have been dismissed with a boot in the ass, but incidences of snarky dogs were extremely rare, for a whole bunch of reasons that no longer apply in our modern world. We never had one, and I didn't know anyone else who did.

How you handle the dog as a pup definitely comes into play here. If a pup has a very clear idea of where he fits in the family, the idea of defying anyone will simply never occur to him as he gets older. As a teenager I used to walk and train dogs for folks. Never suffered a bite from any of them, or a snark for that matter. As I said, different times. That kind of behaviour was simply not tolerated by many people "back in the day". (maybe breeders attended more to temperament back then? For sure, the temperament in many breeds has deteriorated, especially any that became popular)

The best advice for anyone who is unsure how to proceed is likely to work with a trainer or behaviourist, but even that can backfire if you use the wrong person. I have seen "positive" methods have unintended, negative results, I have seen people create fear biters with harsher methods, and I have also seen success stories both ways, so nothing is written in stone. I don't think anyone is likely to find a magic answer on the internet, and all advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But when in doubt the safest thing is distraction, not direct confrontation. I do not go that route because I haven't had to, and in an emergency (the dog has something that is dangerous to him) I would never hesitate to intervene, whether a bite was a likely result or not, so I just practice what works for me and in fifty plus years it hasn't let me down.