I have stood out in the rain with Cara for over an hour, her screaming, crying, holding up one foot after another... over and over. And no, she ever, ever pottied. Which is why I found the concrete back porch acceptable.
Need good advice on serious topic:
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Oakleys behavior is BOTH his anticipation of a correction and not wanting to give up his stolen good! I can't even say it's one more than the other; it's a total 50:50
Yes, we are a 100% clicker train household, he responds very well to this method
If it's anticipation of a correction, then absolutely go with what Debra and others have been suggesting. What I do with mine will likely make it worse. It's not a game you want to play if you're not certain of winning. I make no bones about being a bit "old school" in some things, I started with dogs a long time ago and I use what works for me. I also use all the tools in the bag, and I love the clicker for teaching new behavior. It works faster than anything else.
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I do hope eventually I will be able to just take a forbidden object because he is not territorial nor guarding with anything else, toys, treats, kibble, vegetables, even cheese and meat that I give him, he's so spoiled I even hold his apples for him so they dont roll around my floor! At the very least I'd like to be able to predict reactions in the future to know whether taking or trading is necessary. I do understand what yOu mean when you say, basenjis can catch onto stealing as a means to get a good trade
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Do you play It's Yer Choice with him? I start mine with the way the video shows with them earning their treats by just showing enough to control to let me give them the treat without them moving toward the treat but as we advance I add eye contact versus focusing on the treats as a criteria for earning them.
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Chelsea both Sayblee and now Cara love to retrieve. However Cara only does it in the house, never outside.
Yes, dogs would prefer you leave them alone when eating. And if there weren't an issue, I advise people to do just that. Sadly, you have an issue. I would not just sit beside. Every bite that goes in his mouth should come out of your own hand. I have done things like put my hands in bowls once I knew biting not a risk, and deposit a REALLY nice treat. Before long they want your hands in there to see what you leave.
However, first, from your hands only. He no longer gets to own a bowl. It won't take long to link person/eating as a dual connected thing. -
Are you able to feed him pieces of kibble/treats when sitting? How about giving pills? I train all my dogs including my rescues to be able to do these things. I also train them that when they have a nylabone I am able to take it away and then give it back to them. I start out with a very short time frame that I have it and increase the time. I make it into a game.
Most of my dogs eat in their crates but I am able to put my hand over the food while they are eating and then remove it. I am also able to pet their head while they are eating also. With rescues, this is after they are extremely comfortable with me and feeding. I have not rescued a dog that has been starved and I doubt this would work with a dog like that.
Jennifer
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Debra, you are probably right, i should hand feed him, I ha a feeling I should do more during feeding so this doesn't develop into a problem. I'll start that tonight.
Jennifer- I can absolutely hand feed him without problems, it's only with stolen food which had now progressed into a mild discomfort with me around his food. He's even great with regular nylabones and toys but if it's an edible toy like an edible nylabone he growls at you if you try to take it, he will lete touch him during feeding but he stops eating and I feel the slightest tension in his body so I know he is trying to tell me " mom, not now.. I'm trying to eat!" -
The only thing I have to add is I think you need to be very careful with him around children if they have food or toys until you get this under control. I think if a kid dropped food or a toy and he was loose it is possible a similar "theft/bite" situation could occur.
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I completely agree, which is why Oakley will not be in contact with kids without direct supervision, and I will refrain from putting him in the same house with anyone under ten until I can hopefully, fix this behavior. Unfortunately that means he will be crated at home and bot enjoying the Christmas festivities but its in his and my best interest
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I just had a thought - this is not just a basenji thing, it's a dog thing. Could it be that protecting the self found 'garbage food' is a throw-back from times when dogs/wolves had to hunt to find their food and then guard it from other predators?
Anyway, I know that doesn't help you with the problem, but others have given some great advice. I know you love Oakley and that you will work this out with him.
If this post seems off the wall, forgive me. I have pneumonia and the antibiotics are making me kind of out of it.
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Oh gosh Fran, hope you feel better soon. Not that ANY time is good to be sick, but holidays are the worse.
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Thanks so much Debra. I've never had pneumonia before… it's kind of nasty. But it will pass with some TLC and a warm basenji on my lap.
After all, aren't they almost a 'cure all'? -
Hey Oakley's Mom! I have a good book recommended to me from a behaviorist. It is called "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson. Have not read all through it, but your boy may just be a resource guarder. Your vigilance with him at this time is crucial. The trading of the object does not let him think less of you as a leader. On the contrary, a resource guarder does so because things have been 'taken' from him in the past…..The trading allows him to trust you even more, that is won't have to 'guard' anything because you are a benevolent giver! Trading is not weakness. Does not matter what happened to get him here, just go forward from here with exercises that lead him to trusting the 'HAND'. When you said to him 'eat' that was a cue for you to use to divert his guarding mind and pay attention to you and change his little brain synapses to a good thing. No teeth and posturing allowed. I have not read the whole book, but you want to avoid the posture stage. You want avoid this point to avoid aggression. TRADING is good and changing his mind about guarding 'things' is the way to manage this; and possibly never happen again. Good Luck!
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@Buddys:
Hey Oakley's Mom! I have a good book recommended to me from a behaviorist. It is called "MINE!" by Jean Donaldson. Have not read all through it, but your boy may just be a resource guarder. Your vigilance with him at this time is crucial. The trading of the object does not let him think less of you as a leader. On the contrary, a resource guarder does so because things have been 'taken' from him in the past…..The trading allows him to trust you even more, that is won't have to 'guard' anything because you are a benevolent giver! Trading is not weakness. Does not matter what happened to get him here, just go forward from here with exercises that lead him to trusting the 'HAND'. When you said to him 'eat' that was a cue for you to use to divert his guarding mind and pay attention to you and change his little brain synapses to a good thing. No teeth and posturing allowed. I have not read the whole book, but you want to avoid the posture stage. You want avoid this point to avoid aggression. TRADING is good and changing his mind about guarding 'things' is the way to manage this; and possibly never happen again. Good Luck!
I don't have time to go thru this whole post right now…and this response is so awesome, I am just going to quote it
As some of you know, our Ivy is the queen of resource guarding. I feel her response was heightened because I did exactly what EEE described when Ivy was a young pup. My escalation of response encouraged her to guard harder, and eventually snap. I changed to a trading method, and her behavior softened *some. The damage was done. She never growls at me now when she has something, but she will growl at Tim, and occasionally snap at the kids if they push the issue. The problem with insisting that the dog respects you, is that if it works (which it won't with *every dog) it doesn't generalize to every human for the dog. Where as when you condition the dog to feel "happy" or "glad" when someone wants something they have, that translates in the dog's brain to all humans.Gotta go!
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For what it's worth, I have never dealt with theft in any other way than immediately taking the object from the dog, and I have never been nipped under these circumstances by any of the many dogs I have owned, nor have any of them nipped or bitten any other person. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but most people I know (my generation, I suppose) deal with it the same way with the same results. I do think much depends on the relationship you have with the animal, and the consistency of your response. In my household there has always been a clear understanding of what belongs to the dog and what doesn't, and one rule I have is that nothing is ever "let go" because "it really doesn't matter" or "I'm too busy". I'm just throwing that out because I think some problems start very small and we don't notice them until they escalate. Dealing with horses…...who outweigh me by a factor of ten......I have learned to nip disobedience in the bud, before it becomes something I really can't handle. The result is animals I can control with the lightest of touches, that respect me and others, and that are as safe for kids to be around as is possible with a large, reactive animal.
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For what it's worth, I have never dealt with theft in any other way than immediately taking the object from the dog, and I have never been nipped under these circumstances by any of the many dogs I have owned, nor have any of them nipped or bitten any other person. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but most people I know (my generation, I suppose) deal with it the same way with the same results. I do think much depends on the relationship you have with the animal, and the consistency of your response. In my household there has always been a clear understanding of what belongs to the dog and what doesn't, and one rule I have is that nothing is ever "let go" because "it really doesn't matter" or "I'm too busy". I'm just throwing that out because I think some problems start very small and we don't notice them until they escalate. Dealing with horses…...who outweigh me by a factor of ten......I have learned to nip disobedience in the bud, before it becomes something I really can't handle. The result is animals I can control with the lightest of touches, that respect me and others, and that are as safe for kids to be around as is possible with a large, reactive animal.
Or, it could be that you haven't had a dog that was willing to bite over some item that they stole. Lucky you! Maybe it is how you handle your dogs as pups…or maybe you have just been lucky to not have a dog with temperament issues...or maybe dogs just like you better than they like other people....I don't know...
I do agree though, that many people don't address a guarding issue the instant they see it. If people did, that would help tremendously for a dog that has a tendancy to guard. Every one of my dogs has tried guarding an item as a pup...it hasn't worked, and they gave it up...except Ivy. I am not about to advise people to 'gain their dog's respect' by taking away an item when the dog is snarling and lunging at them. You and I might be able to tell whether or not the dog is bluffing...but do you want to put the person you are advising at risk by suggesting they try to figure it out on their own?
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You and I might be able to tell whether or not the dog is bluffing…but do you want to put the person you are advising at risk by suggesting they try to figure it out on their own?
Oh, I absolutely agree with you there. People have to do what they are comfortable with, and if they are not confident it won't work out well. I spoke of my own experiences, and I admit that I (and most of my friends) am "old school" because that is very much our generation. Quite frankly, a dog that snarked at someone when I was a child would probably have been dismissed with a boot in the ass, but incidences of snarky dogs were extremely rare, for a whole bunch of reasons that no longer apply in our modern world. We never had one, and I didn't know anyone else who did.
How you handle the dog as a pup definitely comes into play here. If a pup has a very clear idea of where he fits in the family, the idea of defying anyone will simply never occur to him as he gets older. As a teenager I used to walk and train dogs for folks. Never suffered a bite from any of them, or a snark for that matter. As I said, different times. That kind of behaviour was simply not tolerated by many people "back in the day". (maybe breeders attended more to temperament back then? For sure, the temperament in many breeds has deteriorated, especially any that became popular)
The best advice for anyone who is unsure how to proceed is likely to work with a trainer or behaviourist, but even that can backfire if you use the wrong person. I have seen "positive" methods have unintended, negative results, I have seen people create fear biters with harsher methods, and I have also seen success stories both ways, so nothing is written in stone. I don't think anyone is likely to find a magic answer on the internet, and all advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But when in doubt the safest thing is distraction, not direct confrontation. I do not go that route because I haven't had to, and in an emergency (the dog has something that is dangerous to him) I would never hesitate to intervene, whether a bite was a likely result or not, so I just practice what works for me and in fifty plus years it hasn't let me down.
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Personally, I have never seen a situation where positive reinforcement methods have put a human at risk. As with any other training method…if done incorrectly, one could fail to correct the problem they are trying to change...but there is no point in arguing the details of our methodologies.
I think one reason that we see more cases of people dealing with problem dogs, is that when I was kid, and probaby you too. If your dog bit a kid you did either one of three things: you told the kid "don't bother the dog anymore", or you took the vet or the shelter where it was euthanized, or you took it behind the barn and shot it. People didn't want to understand why their dog bit, and they didn't really care, and they didn't think they could change the dog. Now people view the dog as a family member that you don't give up on, and many set up unrealistic expectations for the dog. People with problem dogs have to become instant experts, and they have people tell them they don't have a good relationship with their dog, and that they screwed up with the dog as a puppy because they were too lenient,or too harsh. When all they really want is a technique to improve their dog's behavior.
I am rambling....
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Personally, I have never seen a situation where positive reinforcement methods have put a human at risk. As with any other training method…if done incorrectly, one could fail to correct the problem they are trying to change...but there is no point in arguing the details of our methodologies.
I have seen problems with creating pushy, demanding, "entitled" animals when it is applied incorrectly. Usually when folks don't switch to intermittent rewarding, or reinforce something other than what they intended to reinforce.
I think one reason that we see more cases of people dealing with problem dogs, is that when I was kid, and probaby you too. If your dog bit a kid you did either one of three things: you told the kid "don't bother the dog anymore", or you took the vet or the shelter where it was euthanized, or you took it behind the barn and shot it.
Yes, no question about it. The usual method employed by people I knew was to discipline the kid. People usually understood the dog wasn't the party at fault.
I teased our Sheltie until he lost his patience. "Daddy, the dog bit me!" "What did you do to the dog?" No sympathy for me! And we had that dog until he was 14 years old…....wonderful dog. I grew up and learned to respect his space.People didn't want to understand why their dog bit, and they didn't really care, and they didn't think they could change the dog. Now people view the dog as a family member that you don't give up on, and many set up unrealistic expectations for the dog. People with problem dogs have to become instant experts, and they have people tell them they don't have a good relationship with their dog, and that they screwed up with the dog as a puppy because they were too lenient,or too harsh. When all they really want is a technique to improve their dog's behavior.
I think back then a lot of people did understand why their dog bit, if it bit. And usually took steps to improve matters. But the problem was less prevalent and I think that the way dogs were incorporated into a household had something to do with it. Dogs allowed on furniture were rare. Most dogs I knew had restrictions on where they could be in the house (ours was not allowed in carpeted areas, and he respected that whether we were home or not). And most importantly, dogs were not left alone for long periods of time. Mom was usually around, to deal with either dogs or kids or both. It makes a difference.
I am rambling….
Yeah, me too. As I've said before, I've been doing this a long time. When I started, the usual methods employed with dogs were positive reinforcement in the form of praise, positive punishment in the form of spanking, not so much use of negative punishment, which is more in style today, not a lot of negative reinforcement, either, although it was and is the primary method of training horses. (natural, because of the differences in what you are teaching, and the "nature of the beast") I am all for learning whatever "new" methods come down the pipe. (really, nothing is new, just "rebranded" and there is more jargon out there than there used to be) Although I have always used marker words, I find clickers great because they are more precise in use and lack the inflection of a verbal marker, which introduces inconsistency to the equation. I've employed them with horses also…...if anything, horses are quicker than dogs to offer behaviours, and they learn fast! There are many roads that lead to Rome, and the choice between them may rest with the individuals involved. One size seldom fits all, and I will not deprive myself of useful tools because they are currently out of favour. The pendulum swings, and if you live long enough you will see it swing back again......often several times. Now I really am rambling.
Merry Christmas and successful training to all.
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Not sure how others will interpret this/think it is okay, etc., but this method works for Kipawa and I regarding resource guarding, which thankfully hasn't happened yet. When Kipawa was very young and had any toy with him, even when it was in his mouth, I would take his head in my hands and kiss him on the cheek. Then I would hold onto the toy and kiss him on his cheek. Had I read about this anywhere? No. But I do have to say that Kipawa's nature is very kind. There is no resource guarding of any kind with food, even the most coveted, which is fresh organic bison steak.
I'd be interested to hear comments, or if anyone else had tried something similar to this.
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Not sure how others will interpret this/think it is okay, etc., but this method works for Kipawa and I regarding resource guarding, which thankfully hasn't happened yet. When Kipawa was very young and had any toy with him, even when it was in his mouth, I would take his head in my hands and kiss him on the cheek. Then I would hold onto the toy and kiss him on his cheek. Had I read about this anywhere? No. But I do have to say that Kipawa's nature is very kind. There is no resource guarding of any kind with food, even the most coveted, which is fresh organic bison steak.
I'd be interested to hear comments, or if anyone else had tried something similar to this.
Oh I would NOT NOT NOT suggest someone with a resource guarder to do this. That being said, Jet the trying will often growl at the other dogs in the house and I will pick him up and rub my face all over him. But I don't tell people that I do this, nor do i view it as training. I'm just 100% sure he won't bite me (or other humans). He's just grumpy (I mean the other dogs are standing there breathing his air!) I can actually do this with any of my dogs, but i truly believe that is the nature of my dogs and has very little to do with me. (Although I do think i'm an above average dog-owner and have invested hours/days/months/years worth of training in all of my basenjis.)
