Thank you all for the responses. We haven't had any more incidents of late and have been working hard on the recall command. I have been combining the whistle and verbal command which is working well. Other members of my family are not really involved in the training process so hopefully my smarty-pants will contiue to respond to the whistle even in the absence of my voice. They are continuing to do well when on the trail with me and my horses. We had our first snow which they enjoyed too. I do keep my eyes on them for sure.
Need Home for Basenji
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Hi TuckerVA, How are you doing? Have been thinking about you and Tucker and your situation and hoping you are finding a resolution.
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Hi Tucker's dad, I'm new to this forum, but I'm familiar with basenjis (and alcoholic relatives too, for that matter :)).
I hope that you've found the right solution, and while there are many here advocating the Rainbow Bridge, I can understand completely why you would resist that option. I would feel the same way, that I would be responsible for my dog's behavior and I would seek every avenue of resolution….
With that being said, I do advocate finding a new home for your great alcoholic aunt.... You said that she was cloudily related to you, and if that's the case, I think she is a disruptive factor that apparently Tucker didn't agree with.... for the record, I am not trying to justify his behavior! However, if a drunk old granny that reeks of cigarette smokes approaches me.... it may be hard for me to control my instincts, and I may actually plug my nose, gag or shiver, or run away!
(I hope that made you smile, just a little. :). ) In all seriousness, if your greatly drunk aunt is still there, there is no family rule that states you must have alcohol available, or that you permit alcohol in your home. And if she's already burned one house down.... I hope you've curtailed the smoking to the outside patio.
I think you have to try to fix both issues.... perhaps you can lean on another relative to take care of Aunty, so that you can focus on what's important to your heart?
Just my two cents. Take care!
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Hello everyone, just wanted to give an update. Quite a bit has happened. But shed no tears, I will not be putting Tucker down. I made the commitment to keeping this dog alive and giving him his forever home, and I intend to do so - just as I said I would.
With that being said, this is what's been done. I pretty much put feelers out everywhere I could. My first attempt, and most fruitful thus far, was to contact a VA CDTI, who referred me to Martin Deeley (a personal friend of CM), who didn't put me in touch with Cesar, but he referred me to George ****rell (also a personal friend to CM), a local guy who also trains dogs and is quite accomplished with 33 years experience, third generation, and has seen 17,000 dogs. We met a week ago to review some training issues and his opinion is that there is nothing wrong with the dog that cannot be controlled. But due to his unpredictability, needs to be trained and barriers need to be erected with other people around (crate & muzzle). Tucker is responding well to the training exercises, but he's no spaniel or lab and it's taking a while to get him to where I want him. I'm currently working with a lead and a plastic pinch to get him to walk properly and to sit and to base his every move on me and what I tell him to do. Every day it's 2 steps forward, and one step back, but that's 1 step of progress every day. The focus is to keep Tucker working for me rather than making his own decisions. George and I meet again in another week and I've enrolled Tucker in Saturday classes that start in June that my wife and I will attend with Tucker.
Prior to meeting with George, I had contacted Sean Hawkins, the head of the Cesar and Illusion Foundation, and have emailed several times with him. I also was able to track down the director (Jim Milio) and the producer (Sue Ann Fincke) of The Dog Whisperer. I got responses from Sean and Jim and both gave some good advice, including getting in touch with Cheri Lucas, one of CM's students. I have had some email exchanges with Cheri also. But I don't think it's going to be necessary. Tucker just needs solid direction provided by the training and the temporary barriers should keep any further bites from occurring.
I also had Dr. Jean Dodds personally read Tucker's thyroid panel (after having my vet interpret them) and I feel her take on it is the one and only take, and Tucker has normal thyroid levels. Tucker's chemical panel was normal as well - so the fact that there is nothing physically wrong with him has been confirmed.
The behaviorist, Dr. Kathrn Meyer, has kept in touch with me and knows George ****rell as well. She was at first a bit put off by my having contacted him because of his extensive use of electronic equipment to train dogs. However, she was quite pleased that George was able to properly assess that electronic equipment was not the best option for Tucker's temperment. She and I remain in touch and will explore medication once Tucker's training progresses and the need will be revisited. Doggy Prozac is on the table, but since Tucker's lifestyle is changing drastically, she want's to wait prior to trying anything further in fear of any drugs having a negative effect due to their potential to increase aggression during the initial period of the drug use.
My wife and I still feel that should be manage to get pregnant, that Tucker might not be safe to have around a child given their unpredictability once the child starts to become mobile. We also don't want to crate him 100% of the time nor do we want him to spend the rest of his life behind a muzzle. Therefore, in the interest of Tucker and my wife and I, my mother has agreed to take Tucker when that point in time arrives which, at best, wouldn't occur sooner than 9 - 10 months since we're not currently pregnant.
My mom lives alone in a loosely populated area and has seldom visits. She too has committed to meeting with a trainer there and working with Tucker in order to maintain control of him once he's in her hands. The setup at her house allows Tucker free roam of the house and fenced area and he can be blocked into any one of the areas should she have visitors. She lost her husband about 1.5 years ago, so it would be good for both of them (Tucker and mom). My family has really rallied behind me and my cause.With regard to the lady living with us, we made great leaps in progress regarding preparing her home for her to move back into. If you are just joining this thread, she was an extreme hoarder, is an alcoholic, smokes constantly and suffers mild dimensia. She set her house on fire with cigarettes and had nowhere to live and noone to take care of her, so she moved in with my wife and I in our small condo. She cannot properly comprehend the rules of the house (don't touch the dogs) and will not leave Tucker alone and therefore has been bitten twice. She just doesn't understand. (Keep in mind that Tucker has NEVER outright bitten anyone, he only reacts to situations where people reach for him) Once she found out that he might have to go away, she has found a new respect for the rules as she loves him also. She has given Tucker his space in the interim and no more incidents have occurred. Just this weekend I met with painters and cleaning folks and this part of the work could potentially be completed in the next 2 weeks, opening our home a bit and relaxing the apprehension of another 'occurance'. Keep in mind that we work 10 hours a day during the week and even spent our 1 year wedding anniversary working on this house that she will be relocated to (she has two, one burned and is soaked from firemen and is full of mold now along with ceiling high hoarding mess and the other WAS piled to the ceiling with junk and trash - hoarding mess. We are cleaning the one that didn't burn for her to live in temporarily until the one that burned can be cleaned up and renovated). Every weekend is spent on this project - we have removed 2ea 30 cuyd dumpsters of yard debris and 3ea 30 cuyd dumpsters of junk and trash from inside the house we're moving her to. (That's 6 tons of crap, for those who are mathematically challenged.) Believe it or not, Nancy has offered to take Tucker into her home after she moves, regardless of the biting issue. Not an option, but just more reinforcement of how my family has come together to save Tucker's life.
I still may submit my case to the Milan folks to see if they are interested in created a show on Tucker, but it's not a priority for me just now as much as working with Tucker to reduce his anxiety and fear. George said that Tucker bites because he feels like he has to. He does not continue his 'attack' once he bites, rather, he acts sorry for losing control. George feels Tucker can be a good dog although still will be required to be isolated around company. He thinks the crate and muzzle will be acceptable to Tucker once he is further along in his training and is more in tune with doing what I want him to do. I have had several breakthoughs while training him, but it's only been a week. I work with him at least three times a day for 15 minute intervals, drilling the lessons into him. I even go home for lunch to work with him since I live 15 minutes from work.
I also contacted both rescue organizations. basenjirescue.org and besenjirescue.us. Keath contacted me immediately and had good advice, he also helped me reach Dr. Dodds. I didn't hear back from Mike at BRAT until I sent him a nasty letter of disappointment regarding his lack of response. He pawned responsibility off on JR, who I will most likely work with on Tucker's training at some point. JR has 6 dogs now including his fosters and simply doesn't have to time to lend ATM.
I just want to say…never give up on your dog. Obviously, people here disagree as to what is best for the dog. Some of you said put him down, some supported my efforts. But what is best for you is also important, and keeping Tucker alive is the best thing for me and I'd like to think Tucker agrees that it's best for him as well. You might think this is selfish, but I would disagree. Killing an animal whom you love, in my opinion, is never 'the best option'. Who says animals don't have feelings and don't have an opinion. Who says they don't know what's coming...when you find a dog that can talk, let me know. Tucker trusts me. I refuse to let him down and my persistance has proven that there are alternatives. It just takes commitment and dedication. If you don't possess these traits, in my opinion, you've got no business having a dog.
Finally, unrelated to Tucker, my mother in law had to put one of her dogs down this past week. Bailey was a 12 yo lab from the Chillbrook line. She loved that dog more than anything, but Bailey was unable to get up when she got home one day last week. After a visit to the emergency vet, Bailey was found to have a malignant tumor in his stomach, and it was bleeding. Surgery would have extended Bailey's life by a maximum of 3 months. The family decided that they would not prolong Bailey's pain and suffering. In the last minutes before Bailey was put to sleep, Bailey got up and went to each family member, in turn, and licked the face of everyone in the family. I can't help but think he knew what was coming and that was his way of telling everyone that he understood and it was his way of saying farewell. Shortly thereafter, they helped Bailey cross the bridge.
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I don't post much, I've been gone from this forum, for the most part for quite a while, but I wanted to tell you that I think you are doing right by Tucker. My dog prior to a B was my Eski, who had similar issues with trust. I was the only one he trusted completely, and he was very unpredictable (and dangerous) with strangers. I kept him safe and sound, and kept him from getting into trouble, by keeping him away from strangers, or muzzled. Even as my life circumstances changed, (family etc) I always figured out a way to help him get through it. He was a great dog, and accepted the fella and kids I acquired as his own family. We all loved him, and it worked for his whole life, until his kidneys finally quit due to age and I helped him across the bridge.
Only you know what is right for your family and your dog. Tucker will never forget what you have done for him, and you can know you did your best for him, even in difficult times.
Best of luck to you both….
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Wow, you have a lot going on with Tucker and this woman. My hat's off to you for giving it a go and facing the challenge to keep and work with Tucker. Sounds like you have some good contacts for helping you. We'll support you here on this forum! I've had a Basenji I rescued in 1994 at 2yrs old that could bite if you grabbed or moved too fast on. He bit my other Basenji the second day we had him. I kept him and worked with him and he mellowed out over time.
Sorry to hear about Bailey, he sounds like he was a wonderful dog! Please keep us updated on how it's going with Tucker. We all learn from your experience. -
I just want to say…never give up on your dog. Obviously, people here disagree as to what is best for the dog. Some of you said put him down, some supported my efforts. But what is best for you is also important, and keeping Tucker alive is the best thing for me and I'd like to think Tucker agrees that it's best for him as well. You might think this is selfish, but I would disagree. Killing an animal whom you love, in my opinion, is never 'the best option'. Who says animals don't have feelings and don't have an opinion. Who says they don't know what's coming...when you find a dog that can talk, let me know. Tucker trusts me. I refuse to let him down and my persistance has proven that there are alternatives. It just takes commitment and dedication. If you don't possess these traits, in my opinion, you've got no business having a dog.
Im glad you are doing all you can for your dog, and I sincerely hope it works out for you. I dont know anything about the trainers you are working with but I sincerely hope they are not using CM's methods on a fearful dog. CM's methods are extremely outdated.
It isnt fair for you to judge those of us who suggested putting the dog down. It isnt about commitment, it's about reality, and from your posts, an unpredictable dog who bites and has fear issues, whom 2 behaviourists suggested putting to sleep… How are we to come to any other conclusion? Obviously we can only give our advice based on the limited information that we know.
I would do all I could for my dog and to not put him to sleep if we were in a similar situation, but there is a point where you cannot help the dog, and you have to consider their quality of life. If you can keep them away from other people and situations where they will bite then good! But that isnt always the case. -
I have chills down my spine and tears in my eyes. What an awe-inspiring post!
You are addressing both issues, and in such a pro-active way! (Concerning your Aunt, if you can get her away from the booze and get some Vitamin B supplements into her diet, you may see some of the dimensia wane…. no, I'm not a doctor, that's just from my family history. Of course, check with a doctor first. )
(Insert celebratory banners, happy faces:p, and hearts here! :))
Thanks for the update, and keep the Faith. Your determination to do the right thing for all will lead to great things!:D You made my week, and it's only Monday!
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Thanks for the update, i hope everything works out well for you. It's great that you are exploring all avenues and have a continguency plan.
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We do want to support you here. Please let us know how its going.
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Good to hear that things are working with the training. Please keep us posted..
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I'm so glad you have a plan of action. If you, or anyone lurking, need a hopeful tale of a difficult dog, i'd suggest reading "Bringing Light to Shadow"
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB808
don't know why i did think to suggest it sooner.
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It isnt fair for you to judge those of us who suggested putting the dog down. It isnt about commitment, it's about reality, and from your posts, an unpredictable dog who bites and has fear issues, whom 2 behaviourists suggested putting to sleep… How are we to come to any other conclusion? Obviously we can only give our advice based on the limited information that we know.
I would do all I could for my dog and to not put him to sleep if we were in a similar situation, but there is a point where you cannot help the dog, and you have to consider their quality of life. If you can keep them away from other people and situations where they will bite then good! But that isnt always the case.You are correct, it is unfair of me to judge anyone. I can only do what I think is best by myself and by my dog. Different people handle things in different ways. All apologies to those who I might have offended. I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve and some of my posts might have exhibited poor judgement resulting from my desparation. I was just more than a little disappointed that the top brass at BRAT chose to ignore my situation and didn't even respond to my email. And, Sharron, I'm not talking about you, so please don't take offense. I'm not referring to JR either, he's been nothing but helpful…as best as he can given the number of fosters he's already caring for. I know there's 'bad blood' between .org and .us, and I don't want to get into that here. But the support and advice certainly didn't come from where I had expected it to come from...
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Oh, my unmet friend. I have to tell you BRAT was totally aware. However, its gotten to be a very big group, BRAT that is, with so many various issues…so Those at the top tend to let us and I am talking about JR handle things...
I want to say, I admire you. Your a great person and I hope this will work for your b and your family. I am glad you understand that we all even with opinions different from yours were honestly trying to help you and support you.
So, moving on, do tell us what we can do to help support you in the future.
We are all so hoping this works... -
TuckerVA - I'm in awe of your love and dedication to your dog. Above the problems with Tucker, you are dealing with really serious family issues. You might love Basenjis, but you have the constitution of a Bull Terrier.
I don't think there was anything in your messages that was derrogatory in any way. Nothing you said came across to me as volatile. IMO, you have not done or said anything that is upsetting or rude. You're just working out the mechanics of how to best help Trucker, the dog you love.
Please keep us all updated on Tucker's progress. Bless you.
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You are correct, it is unfair of me to judge anyone. I can only do what I think is best by myself and by my dog. Different people handle things in different ways. All apologies to those who I might have offended. I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve and some of my posts might have exhibited poor judgement resulting from my desparation. I was just more than a little disappointed that the top brass at BRAT chose to ignore my situation and didn't even respond to my email. And, Sharron, I'm not talking about you, so please don't take offense. I'm not referring to JR either, he's been nothing but helpful…as best as he can given the number of fosters he's already caring for. I know there's 'bad blood' between .org and .us, and I don't want to get into that here. But the support and advice certainly didn't come from where I had expected it to come from...
i wish you both the best of luck and i am glad you are doing all you can!
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Keep us updated, 'kay…I hope to hear that he is making remarkable progress...and I am really glad you are sticking with him
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Have you tried any medication? I am using Clomicalm for Gizmo's separation anxiety, and from what it says in the directions, it is for all types of behavioral issues, including aggression.
Apparently it reduces the chemical flow to the brain that causes the "excitement" trigger, which again triggers these types of behavioral issues.The drug is supposed to be used along with behavior training too.
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Have you tried any medication? I am using Clomicalm for Gizmo's separation anxiety, and from what it says in the directions, it is for all types of behavioral issues, including aggression.
Apparently it reduces the chemical flow to the brain that causes the "excitement" trigger, which again triggers these types of behavioral issues.The drug is supposed to be used along with behavior training too.
"The behaviorist, Dr. Kathrn Meyer, has kept in touch with me and knows George ****rell as well. She was at first a bit put off by my having contacted him because of his extensive use of electronic equipment to train dogs. However, she was quite pleased that George was able to properly assess that electronic equipment was not the best option for Tucker's temperment. She and I remain in touch and will explore medication once Tucker's training progresses and the need will be revisited. Doggy Prozac is on the table, but since Tucker's lifestyle is changing drastically, she want's to wait prior to trying anything further in fear of any drugs having a negative effect due to their potential to increase aggression during the initial period of the drug use."
In addition, we spoke about Clomicalm. Dr. Meyer, whose specialty is medication, said that she would recommend the Prozac prior to the Clomicalm. While they both have aggression as a potential side affect, she feels the Prozac is the 'lesser of two evils'.
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Well done to you and I do hope that all the hard work you and your trainers are putting in with Tucker will be successful.
It's always good to hear from someone who is prepared to give these dogs a chance,
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Just an update on Tucker.
First, Dr. Meyer is not at the top of my list anymore. This happened early in my quest to keep Tucker around, but after the assessment, she told me to put him down as most of you know by now. She followed up with me a couple weeks later and I told her I was working with a trainer and who he was. She was familiar with George and his methods and assumed we were using an e-Collar. At the time, we were not, which surprised her. Shortly thereafter, I got a letter from her reiterating her recommendations except it included an offer to provide services for treatment via medication. I was a little put off that she told me to kill my dog and then comes back, once she realized I intended to save him at all cost, and offered her services to help me.
I've had 2 private sessions with George C o c k r e l l [this forum seems to think his last name is dirty for whatever reason…. :)] and I am at the midpoint in a 6 session group class on Saturdays. If you didn't know, George told me that Tucker is not an aggressive dog and that he bites out of fear. His regime is to help me train Tuck to a high degree of discipline at which point the bite situations can be controlled (in addition to other methods, like muzzle and crate). I've nearly got him accustomed to his crate, he sleeps in it every night now and makes it through most nights without trying to get into our bed. The muzzle training went fine, but I haven't be in a situation that I had to put it on him in a while, so I suspect I'll need to put it on him more lest he forget what it is. I have only closed the crate door once and he freaked out when he woke up. I will try closing it again soon.
There was a hiccough in the training. In addition to everything else this dog has been through, he suffered a lens luxation in his right eye. For those of you not savvy on your opthalmology, a lens luxation is when the ligaments holding the lens in place fail, and the lens breaks loose and floats around in the eye. The lens has moved forward and does not appear to want to go back behind the pupil and it's starting to kill his cornea cells (turning them milky). He's going to go blind in that eye, eventually. He's just started to bump into a few things. I imagine this will improve as he gets used to losing his right side vision. After 7 or more trips to the opthalmologist at The Hope Center in Vienna, Va, we elected to treat with drugs for this eye over the microsurgery ($4500) to remove the lens in addition to drops for the good eye in a preventative nature. The surgery can complicate things worse than they are now, even if successful, requiring more surgery and even quicken his losing the eye and, subsequently, another surgery to remove it. According to the opthalmologist, if one eye luxates, the other typically follows. There is no time connection between eyes, though. Our plan is to continue drug treatment (drops) with his right eye. Should the other eye go, we will most likely go with the more aggressive surgery in order to save some vision and risk the complications. VPI will cover about 35% of the cost. All this means that I cannot use the training methods George had outlined for us and we had to change midstream. Initially, I used the plastic pinch collar all class attendees use, but now I've gone with the Sit Means Sit e-Collar. The opthalmoligist said I need to minimize any constriction on his neck because it increases the pressure on the jugular, which increases the eye pressure that could lead to accelerated glaucoma. I know a lot of you would disagree with this approach, but we tried it and there is no aggressive response from Tucker, just obedience, reinforcing George's assessment of Tucker and somewhat detracting Dr. Meyer's assessment. Yes, Tucker is a biter, but it's not because he's an aggressive dog. The collar I got was the SportDog 800SMS (the Sit Means Sit collar created by Fred Hassen and SportDog). It can be dialed down to virtually nothing. Yes, I tried the collar myself and on the lowest setting, I couldn't even feel it, but Tucker recognizes it and responds. He is also sporting a new RuffWear harness. He's a handsome boy in his new walkwear.
So, as of now, we've just started the training all over again using the e-collar in place of the plastic pinch.
Presently, my wife and I have agreed to keep Tucker until we have a child, which could be anytime between 9 months from now to never. My mom, who lives alone, has agreed to take Tucker and continue his training should we have a child. Tucker will live out his life.
A couple things to note. Tucker would only bite (with few exceptions) if he was touched on the head by a stranger, or someone he was not familiar with. On the third group training class, after 1 private class and during the 2nd private class, Tucker approached George and sat against him. George was able to pet Tucker and grasp and stroke his head like Tuck was his own dog. No negative reaction from Tucker at all. Additionally, I cut Tucker's toenails a few nights ago. Something I've never been able to do without fearing a bite from him…even me, knowing his limits. Yes, he raised his lip a bit at me, but he made no grumblings about it. That, my Basenji friends, is BIG progess if you knew this dog.
Lastly, on a potentially down note, Tucker has started developing lumps at various locations on his body. I'm hoping for the best but fearing the worst. He has a dime sized lump on his chest, a quarter sized lump on his side (between his ribs and his hind leg web) and there's another dime sized one behind his armpit, on the side of his ribcage. The stick out just a bit, but I can feel them pretty easily. I'm hoping these are simply lipomas. It would devastate me if, after all of this, he developed the big C. That is the one battle I have no hope of winning. His vet appointment is this Thursday evening. I've had one removed from him before that started to impede his ability to walk. It grew to about half the size of a golf ball before I had it removed. It was benign.
