I have plans of visitin in the future but yes all of this is over the phone, emails, and photos.
I know this will get alot of attention as I havent met in person but I know she is a good lady and we have talked for a LONG time and I feel as if i HAVE visited her. Since we live so far away i havent been able to actually meet her but i do plan on going up and visiting and talking even more eventually. I know this will be hard to believe for alot of people on here since i am defending her so much, but she is a friend and I trust her alot.
Ok. my "flaming suit" lol
Here goes… I am not going to be rude about my reply, ill just tell you the facts. She has 2 breeds of her own, and her husband breeds two breeds (4) there are dacshunds, westys, terriers(cant remember the bred) and basenjis. They do NOT breed them ALL at the same time. She breeds maybe one or two litters (from one or two of the breeds) Most of these dogs are her pets. They live indoors with her, however some are outside.
You ask how I know that there are 6 breeds? Please read you own post, you are the one that said it?
And there is no one that I know of that could possibily raise well socialized puppies with that many breeds.
And not sure that I understand your question about the Fanconi testing and there is no such thing as "clear/normal"? All of the test results aremarked "PROBABLY" because it is a linkage test and most of us have links to OFA site and the test results. So there most certainly is "clear/normal"…. and since there are now 3569 Basenjis in the Fanconi data base that have been tested, the results are right on what you would expect to see knowing the pedigrees. Either you are a responsible breeder or you are not.. and if responsible no need to defend.
I have plans of visitin in the future but yes all of this is over the phone, emails, and photos.
I know this will get alot of attention as I havent met in person but I know she is a good lady and we have talked for a LONG time and I feel as if i HAVE visited her. Since we live so far away i havent been able to actually meet her but i do plan on going up and visiting and talking even more eventually. I know this will be hard to believe for alot of people on here since i am defending her so much, but she is a friend and I trust her alot.
Just my opinion, but I think she is playing you. It sounds like there are a lot of excuses as to why she does things the way she does. When I am in that situation, I start to wonder if the person is telling the truth..or at least the whole truth.
Just be aware…...
Do you KNOW this? Like has she told you so? Im just wondering and im HONESTLY not trying to be rude or mean about it im honestly just wondering because i dont know, But I defend my friends because that is the kind of person i am. I dont like to hear people bad mouth other people, i just dont and never have. and when a friend is involved then I do just that. even if it causes me to get into an argument (which i honestly dont like being in desputes, I like things to be happy and no tension.) I hope no one takes my words offensively, i just am asking.
Her breeding stock for Fall 2008 were all tested AFTER the breedings had been done (you can verify this by the testing dates and counting back from the litters' birthdates) and are all public in the OFA database.
The dams of the two litters born that year were Bacardi and Victoria both carriers
Nocturnals Bacardi is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343451#animal
Nocturnals Victoria is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343452#animal
Their male
Nocturnals Crow Stopper
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343454#animal
I am pretty sure the tested puppies are BAQPup for Bacardi's litter and VicPup for Victoria's litter.
Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqp
Victoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpup
it's a beautiful color, I wonder why it is not an accepted color?
You ask how I know that there are 6 breeds? Please read you own post, you are the one that said it?
I said FOUR (4) I dont see where you got 6 from. I said she has 2 and her husband has two and i named the 4 breeds they breed.
And there is no one that I know of that could possibily raise well socialized puppies with that many breeds.
I personally would not breed more than one breed but i understand that if you have only like say 2-3 litters (even if they are different breeds) then i think you CAN socialize them. obviously this is going to be a agree to disagree type of situation.
And not sure that I understand your question about the Fanconi testing and there is no such thing as "clear/normal"? All of the test results aremarked "PROBABLY" because it is a linkage test and most of us have links to OFA site and the test results. So there most certainly is "clear/normal"…. and since there are now 3569 Basenjis in the Fanconi data base that have been tested, the results are right on what you would expect to see knowing the pedigrees. Either you are a responsible breeder or you are not.. and if responsible no need to defend.
I must have read your post wrong. I thought you had said there are no such thing as clear/normal results. but ok i understand now. Look Tanza I know we obviously would never be able to work with each other as we both have very strong opinions and its clear you do not like me. I am not going to fight with you or get offensive with you because i dont think it would be right to do so…so i am going to stop right now.
Now this is a question from me, not regarding her. If the clear is not possible, why do people put it on their websites as clear/normal if there is no such thing? I am curious about this myself. All other things non related. Im asking because i honestly dont know and would like to know the answer.
You didn't read my statement very carefully there is no such thing as "CLEAR BY PARENTAGE". There is such a thing as "PROBABLY CLEAR/NORMAL" but the individual dog must be tested to make that statement.
Here is a link to OFA's published statement on the matter, http://www.offa.org/dnacbp.html
Her breeding stock for Fall 2008 were all tested AFTER the breedings had been done (you can verify this by the testing dates and counting back from the litters' birthdates) and are all public in the OFA database.
The dams of the two litters born that year were Bacardi and Victoria both carriersNocturnals Bacardi is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343451#animalNocturnals Victoria is a carrier
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343452#animalTheir male
Nocturnals Crow Stopper
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1343454#animalI am pretty sure the tested puppies are BAQPup for Bacardi's litter and VicPup for Victoria's litter.
Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqpVictoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpup
Thank you for sharing. I DID NOT know this. With this in mind, I agree it shouldnt have been done. and I am wrong when i say she tests. I guess i just assumed everyone did before they bred, she never actually told me. So i appologize, you are right on this matter. That is sad. I will talk to her about it and see what i can convince her to do as far as tests. I know when i am wrong and i admit it. so i appologize on this part. You are right
You didn't read my statement very carefully there is no such thing as "CLEAR BY PARENTAGE". There is such a thing as "PROBABLY CLEAR/NORMAL" but the individual dog must be tested to make that statement.
Here is a link to OFA's published statement on the matter, http://www.offa.org/dnacbp.html
Yes after i read your reply, i see i did read that wrong. sorry. I didnt understand the clear by parcentage thing.
Just my opinion, but I think she is playing you. It sounds like there are a lot of excuses as to why she does things the way she does. When I am in that situation, I start to wonder if the person is telling the truth..or at least the whole truth.
Just be aware…...
Thank you Quercus. I will be sure to be careful and aware. I have a feeling that she isnt but we both could be wrong so i will just be careful. I really like her tho and i dont think she will take advantage of me or knowingly hurt me. I honestly think she is a good person, whether breeding should be part of her life or not. But i do appreciate you looking after me (if you were or werent) and ill keep in mind what you said
it's a beautiful color, I wonder why it is not an accepted color?
To know new knowledge, it is accepted. As long as the parents are AKC registered. I thought it was not but i have been otherwise told that it is now. So I guess it is..granted the parents are too
Thank you for sharing. I DID NOT know this. With this in mind, I agree it shouldnt have been done. and I am wrong when i say she tests. I guess i just assumed everyone did before they bred, she never actually told me. So i appologize, you are right on this matter. That is sad. I will talk to her about it and see what i can convince her to do as far as tests. I know when i am wrong and i admit it. so i appologize on this part. You are right
I know you don't think so, but those of us who have posted really do know what we are talking about and most of us keep track of the listings that come up on the sites frequented by BYBs and Puppymills because as Sharron has pointed out so many times these dogs are coming into rescue and it only because we collect the data when the litters are posted we can provide some info for the rescuers to work with.
You may want to read through the entirety of this thread, http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265
My apologies, I was incorrect… it is 4 breeds, I misread and thought she had 2 and he had 4... instead of 2 and 2.
However ever 4 breeds, it is very difficult to properly socialize that many pups.. keep in mind that the other breeds come in season 2x's a year and a Basenji bitch usually has a season after whelping....
And as already pointed out, the pictures of her kennels is less then acceptable, in my opinion... and if you have kennel situations and can not afford to put up good kennel runs then you should not be breeding... Saying that it is "work" in progress is not (again in my opinion) acceptable conditions for any dog to be living in...
The are planning basenji litters for Fall 2010/Winter 2011. They are planning Welsh Terrier litters in Fall2010/Winter 2011 and Spring 2011. Fall 2010 litters planned for Westies. Litter due Nov 2010 for mini dachshunds. So that sounds like the absolutely plan to have at minimum 4 litters at approximately the same time.
Again this is all public info, just search for Nocturnal Kennels on google and read the advertisement listings.
Bacardi's puppies, including an affected.
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=baqpVictoria's puppies
http://www.offa.org/results.html?all=vicpup
Wow, who knew a set of raw data in a table could be so crushing?
That was really sad to read.
I sincerely hope that whomever ended up with BAQPUP6 was notified of the Fanconi status of their pup. I see that the report didn't come in until almost two full months after the test was submitted (if I read that correctly?), so it seems likely that the pup was already sold before the results came in.
Meanwhile, I just wanted to add something to the conversation…
The internet must have done wonders to change the way that potential puppy buyers seek out and purchase "rare" breeds, like Basenjis. It seems to me that a breeder who is willing to cast their lot with national internet search portals like Breeders.net (or puppyfind.com) need to be prepared for Google to turn up some hard facts about the way they operate their business, as well.
If I was trying to research a kennel as a potential buyer, I would be incredibly glad to see a thread like this. Everything here that has been collected and "organized," as it were, leaves an information trail that allows a reader to come to a clear-headed decision. If it were up to me, I would decide to stay away, because I could not in good conscience support a kennel that assumes such little responsibility and has such apparent disregard for the future, long-term health of the breed. No matter how nice the person. Buying a pup from such a breeder essentially validates the irresponsible choices made to produce the pup.
The rest of the information regarding this breeder's personal affairs and health have no place in my judgment and seem out of line, in my opinion. Miss P., I realize you are just trying to defend someone you consider a friend, but as a matter of privacy, you may want to refrain from publicizing information about her health on her behalf. It does neither you nor her any good.
Finally, there are lots of perfectly nice people out there who love dogs and have great pets of their own, but should not be breeding for various reasons. That doesn't make them any less of a Basenji/Dachshund/West Highland White Terrier/Welsh Terrier lover, nor does it make them any less knowledgeable, or less of a person. In some cases, I'd think even more highly of a breeder if they just pulled out altogether... especially before greater damage to their respective breed(s) has been done. None of what I'm saying has anything to do with a person's character, but rather, a breeder's policies and their actions. Policy and action is all observable and documentable. And some of what I've seen out of this kennel is appalling.
MissP-
I'm glad you've decided to stick around and ask questions. That's good. It's how everyone learns.
MissP-
I'm glad you've decided to stick around and ask questions. That's good. It's how everyone learns.
Thank you agile Basenjis. I am glad I did too. I like to learn and I like to research. I wanted to stay on here because, besides feeling attacked, i have learned alot from these breeders. Especially lvoss because she helped me understand the genetics part Which was very interesting to learn
Ok I have talked to her and im going to explain this for her.
As i have said before, she got the dogs from the lady with the ignorant son. She took these dogs in out of the goodness of her heart and she cared for them and got them all tested. One of the females was already pregnant when she got her. (Bacardi) The owner who previously had them (the lady with the son) didnt know anything about genetics and she didnt understand that carrier to carrier was bad. So she bred them. I agree (i know this will be said) that lady shouldnt have been breeding knowing nothing about genes and heredity. but anyways she DID get that litter tested because she found out after testting the dogs that it was a carrier to carrier breeding. So that is why that litter is on the site. because she spent the money to test the puppies because she knew after getting the dogs that it was possible for an infected. She had someone interested in the puppy but because she found out it was positive she told the lady she wouldnt sell it to her. The lady was furious and sent her loads of mean emails saying how she promised her the puppy. but Sarah wouldnt sell it to her because she didnt know the lady and she didnt want it to possibly be bred to another dog. She had a friend who was well aware that the dog was affected and she sold it to them on a spay and neuter policy, which the guy did get it fixed, and she said that the dog is actually doing ok so far. its not showing symptoms of the disease but she keeps in contact with them. So this was not her fault. And i believe that. I KNOW she wouldnt do that on purpose, she loves her dogs. She had nothing to do with it and she couldnt help it but have the puppies and find good homes for them. She did what a responsible person would have done. She got the puppies tested. She found good homes for them. She denied a person because she didnt know how the puppy would end up and she got it a home where it was spayed and neutered.
That is the truth about the situation.
and its ok Tanza i have misread things too so no hard feelings.
I just want to say what i had said before. See how when that new person entered the picture they didnt know the truth about the situation about the infected puppy and now she has totally disregarded N.Kennels because of it? That is what I was getting at when i said that. New people coming onto the forum, its not fair to say things about her when you dont know the truth because it can affect people in bad ways, even if they are good people.
well anways i just wanted to share that.
I am sorry but that is NOT the truth. She tested the puppies only after the puppy buyer told her there would be no purchase until the puppies were tested.
I am sure she will find a "reasonable excuse" for you to anything you ask her but here are the facts.
1. The only health testing she is doing is Fanconi testing and that is only because the BCOA education is working well and people won't buy puppies from untested parents.
2. She is breeding dogs that do not have valid registration. I am sorry but there is no shortage of registered basenjis in this world that there is any valid reason to breed dogs that aren't registered.
3. She breeds multiple litters and multiple breeds each year often at the same time. There is no way to adequately socialize these puppies let alone pay for the type of care to do it right if she can't even find the money to do health testing on the parents. Vet care isn't cheap.
4. Every time you find a "hole" in her story she conveniently "remembers" a detail that she left out to make the story work.
I don't expect this to convince you because you clearly don't want to believe it but this is NOT a responsible breeder.
