Why not a physical, visual barrier with a shock device on it? Like they use with horses and such? There are devices that don't have that much wattage, so only small chocks that 'suprise' the dog. Used one with my racoondogs and worked perfect. They ran against it twice and then allways stayd at a little distance from it.
Why not a physical, visual barrier with a shock device on it? Like they use with horses and such? There are devices that don't have that much wattage, so only small chocks that 'suprise' the dog. Used one with my racoondogs and worked perfect. They ran against it twice and then allways stayd at a little distance from it.
The whole reason for this discussion is that my boyfriend is opposed to a physical, visual barrier. He will only allow an invisible fence unless I can convince him otherwise.
You may disagree but the information out there supports that dogs do make negative associations with objects, people, or animals near them when they get shocked and this can cause fear and aggression. Yes, it is true that barrier frustration can be an issue but it is not the same as fear aggression caused by the negative associations caused when the dog is shocked.
Dogs certainly can make negative associations with something if they are not introduced to it properly. This, I suspect, is unfortunately most often the case when people buy something and expect instant results without regard for the necessary training. A dog who understands invisible fence knows it has nothing to do with the people or animals that come and go. I have a few friends who use it to make sure their farm dogs don't go visiting when they aren't around. The dogs understand the fence perfectly, and are also "collar wise" and know once the collar is removed they are free to go about their farm chores and cross the fence line without repercussions…..but these dogs were properly trained to the fence. (and yes, one of them will run through it to chase coyotes off the property......generally not, otherwise.)
Also concerned because we have a lot of deer. If its baby season, I know deer can be extremely protective…....I'll just use all of this in my argument.... I'd really like a physical barrier AND invisible fence combination.
Then why not look into the deer fence at my link, as then you would have your physical barrier and also a deterrent to having deer in your yard. 
You can put some plants along the borders, make a high rock garden, put some fences that you paint in a nice color (or even write a love po?m for him on them :D). A fence doesn't have to look like a fence to be effective. 
It is not about being properly introduced, it is about what is around when the shock is delivered because even "properly introduced and trained" dogs have been documented to make negative associations with things in the environment near them when the shock is delivered. There are trainers all over this country whose primary business has become to rehab dogs whose owners use invisible fences. Some of those owners didn't train their dogs properly and that contributed to the issues but some spent big bucks to hire professionals to do the training and still ended up with huge issues with their dogs because of the invisible fence.
I can give you a compromise idea. How about something like this…..much less visible than the average fence....
http://www.invisible-deer-fence.com/invisible-deer-fences/deer_fence_rolls_2.htm#metalHexagrid
And back it up with invisible fence, so your dogs won't be tempted to try to get through it. I think invisible fence is best used to keep the dogs off the regular fence. They are unlikely to stand getting zapped for long enough to climb, dig under, or damage the regular fence.
That is a great looking fence! You could combine it with either invisibile fence, or hot wire fence to keep them away from it. There is also aluminum fencing that looks like wraught iron…that is attractive, and doesnt spoil the view, but will keep the dogs in. Both of these are pretty pricey, though...
Oh, and no…I wouldn't trust invisible fence with my dogs. That being said, I have clients (witout Basenjis) that are very happy with it. I might use it if I really needed to keep a dog out of a certain area in the yard, but I wouldn't trust it as a barrier....for all the afore mentioned reasons.
It is not about being properly introduced, it is about what is around when the shock is delivered because even "properly introduced and trained" dogs have been documented to make negative associations with things in the environment near them when the shock is delivered. There are trainers all over this country whose primary business has become to rehab dogs whose owners use invisible fences. Some of those owners didn't train their dogs properly and that contributed to the issues but some spent big bucks to hire professionals to do the training and still ended up with huge issues with their dogs because of the invisible fence.
O.K we will have to agree to disagree.
"documented to make negative associations with things in the environment near them when the shock is delivered"
Documented by who? Who witnessed the training, the "association", etc. I am always suspicious of generalized comments. You can prove pretty much whatever you want with statistics. (perhaps those would have been problem dogs no matter whether they ever experienced shock or not?) You can also not go by results in a lab, because in the real world there are way too many variables to control. With invisible fence, if the dog is trained correctly it never experiences shock after the initial training, since the collars typically supply a "tone" or "vibration" when the dog is getting close to the fence. Most dogs heed the warning signal, thereby not experiencing shock again. Some dogs learn they can run through it…...a momentarily unpleasant feeling.....but again, it isn't a matter of not knowing they will get a jolt.
"Shock" training sounds nasty, but it works because most of us do not enjoy the sensation and try to avoid it. I hate getting zapped by my electric fence. My neighbour, OTOH, will touch it to make sure it is on! Not me. If I touch it accidentally, I mutter obscene words under my breath, but I don't really feel like biting anyone......nor do my horses, or any dog I have yet met.
BTW, "Professional" means you got paid, it doesn't necessarily mean you know what you are doing! 
Unless you live in a deed restricted neighborhood with fence rules, that deer fence looks great,likely easy to put up and take down, not 'forever' fencing, and doesn't block the view.
We have a friend who tried to use an invisible fence with his basenji, she would just put her head down and run through it, and not come back across it, actually became afraid to come back into the yard.
Here's another alternative from the same site, which they are marketing as "portable". Won't keep the deer out, but should work unless your dogs are keen on jumping.
http://www.topdogfences.com/products/electric_fences/kits/index.htm#mesh
The only real caveat I have about electric fence is that they don't work in a power failure, or if they have been shorted out. It is necessary to check them constantly, and I for one would not go away for the day and trust my (non reliable) dog to stay inside one. But if you want something to contain them while you are home, it might be a good compromise.
Basenjis are not Border Collies, and if they can figure out a way past the fence, they will. (Once upon a time, I inadvertently left my Border Collie on a down stay, got distracted and went to town. Two hours later, when I returned, he was exactly where I had left him. No Basenji I have met would ever do that!)
Good luck, I think you need to put your foot down and tell your partner that it has to be a barrier fence.
Here are some published journal articles on invisible fences and shock collars.
Polsky, Richard, (2000), Can Aggression in Dogs Be Elicited Through the Use of Electronic Pet Containment Systems?, Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science, 3(4), 345-357
Schilder, Matthijs B.H. and van der Borg, Joanne A.M., (2004), Training dogs with help of the shock collar: short and long term behavioural effects, Applied Animal Behavior Science 85 (2004) 319-334
Schalke, E., Stichnoth, J. and Jones-Baade, R., Stress Symptoms Caused by the Use of Electric Training Collars on Dogs (Canis familiaris) in Everyday Life Situations, Current Issues and Research in Veterinary Behavioral Medicine,
Here are some published journal articles on invisible fences and shock collars.
Polsky, Richard, (2000), Can Aggression in Dogs Be Elicited Through the Use of Electronic Pet Containment Systems?, Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science, 3(4), 345-357
Schilder, Matthijs B.H. and van der Borg, Joanne A.M., (2004), Training dogs with help of the shock collar: short and long term behavioural effects, Applied Animal Behavior Science 85 (2004) 319-334
Schalke, E., Stichnoth, J. and Jones-Baade, R., Stress Symptoms Caused by the Use of Electric Training Collars on Dogs (Canis familiaris) in Everyday Life Situations, Current Issues and Research in Veterinary Behavioral Medicine,
Interesting articles. The first one appears relevant to the topic, as it deals with invisible fence systems. The author has a PHD, is prominent as a dog bite expert, and is available as a professional "expert witness" for court cases. His subjects for this study are limited and his data is anecdotal. His conclusions are also qualified. ("the implication that shock was associated with, or the cause of, the dog's attack remains tenuous") Reading the actual cases was illuminating. The mistakes made by the owners were obvious, and the training received by the dogs…...all five of them......inadequate. I believe the last incident in particular would have had the same result had the dog been contained behind a physical fence and gotten out. Still, it makes for entertaining reading. www.dogexpert.com/…/Electronic%20fences.pdf
The second, supposedly clinical, study referenced makes use of GSD's undergoing military training. The study is not double blind, and I believe it is not peer reviewed. The conclusions are entirely subjective, as all observed dogs appeared to have some stress from their training, whether they were shocked or not, and the observers (who knew which dogs had had shock training) assessed that the shocked dogs were more affected. Not a very scientific approach. And not directly related to invisible fence.
The third reference is the most interesting, and in fact proves my point. The researchers document that poor timing on the part of the trainer can result in unintended associations (they mention that this is also the case with reward based training, but since reward based training is less resistant to extinction it presents less of a problem).
So I will give you this: invisible fences are not a good idea if the training isn't properly carried out, and since many (most?) people are unlikely to take the necessary time to do the job right, there will be incidents when improperly prepared dogs may make undesired associations, possibly resulting in transferred aggression. I doubt this has resulted very often, but it is possible that it has happened. That said, I believe there are many, many more incidents involving dogs on leashes in public places biting people…...perhaps we should all stop walking our dogs!
(BTW transferred aggression is an interesting thing. I'm sure I am not the only one who has witnessed dogs who normally like each other attack each other because they can't get at the thing they really want. "When you can't bite the one you want, bite the one you're with")
But with an invisible fence system you are not in control of timing, it is delivered when the dog gets too close to the boundary and if there happens to be people, pets, etc at the boundary then the shock can be associated with those things. This is even more likely if the reason the dog approaches the is because of those things.
As far as how often it happens, I think it happens far more often then you think based on the experience of trainers who are called in to do evaluations of dogs in homes with invisible fence. I know you don't care because it is not scientific research but it does exist.
LOL tell your bf that an invisible fence won't work… so your time--- instead of sex or cooking or housekeeping-- will be spent on having to walk your dog and go out on long line for it to be out, etc.
Thank you all for your input. This is pretty much exactly what I expected. I am completely dead set against an invisible fence alone, and I think an invisible fence paired with a nice, quality picket fence would be very nice. My boyfriend is a commitment phobe when it comes to big, expensive decisions, so I think he is dragging his feet on the issue. I'm hoping to wear him down, and will be showing him the deer fence, etc.
Thanks all. Please keep my basenjis in your thoughts and cross your fingers that they get a fence, sooner rather than later.
Please keep my basenjis in your thoughts and cross your fingers that they get a fence, sooner rather than later.
Fingers crossed that it works out for you! I agree with everyone here that an invisible fence alone is inappropriate for a Basenji.
But with an invisible fence system you are not in control of timing, it is delivered when the dog gets too close to the boundary and if there happens to be people, pets, etc at the boundary then the shock can be associated with those things. This is even more likely if the reason the dog approaches the is because of those things.
As far as how often it happens, I think it happens far more often then you think based on the experience of trainers who are called in to do evaluations of dogs in homes with invisible fence. I know you don't care because it is not scientific research but it does exist.
Trainers called in to do such evaluations typically have been called as a last resort because the people are dealing with behavior they can't control. Whether or not the fence was a contributing factor, it is extremely likely that someone who gets into this position with their dog was not a competent trainer to begin with and didn't properly introduce the fence.
And yes, you are in control of the timing when you are training the dog. If the dog has been properly conditioned to the fence it understands that the effect of the fence is not dependent on whatever else is in the environment. And the dog will not blunder accidentally into the fence field. Invisible fence collars typically warn the dog when he is getting too close. There is an audible tone. After hearing the tone, the dog has the option of backing off or continuing. When you begin teaching the dog, you never let him feel a shock. You teach him that the tone signals he should retreat. Only once you have established this response do you allow him to get close enough to discover there are consequences to ignoring the tone. Most dogs figure out cause and effect very quickly, and never again encounter the shock because they are not stupid! You should also carry out extensive distraction training to "proof" the dog's obedience to the fence. Again, in circumstances you can control. And with maximum value distractions. Many people (most?) are not this diligent, even the so called professionals.
With some dogs, if there is an irresistible attraction perhaps they will continue, knowing full well what the consequences will be. Under those circumstances you are dealing with a dog that is so motivated to "get" the object of his desires that with or without the shock there is going to be a bite if he can get at it.
I care a lot, believe me. I don't think any sort of electronic training devices should be available to anyone without adequate understanding of their use, but unfortunately, as with many things, competence is not required to purchase them. This is unfortunate for both the reputation of the equipment and the unfortunate dogs. I think this equipment has its uses, but it needs to be respected and understood.
Often, we don't know enough about the circumstances which created an aggressive dog. Children are notorious for teasing, but once bitten their cry is always "I didn't do anything". A dog that has been harassed and finds an opportunity to retaliate usually will. And not only children, but adults also, will lie about the circumstances surrounding a bite. If they can blame some outside factor rather than their own actions, they will. I think this was quite clear in the story of the woman who was correcting her dog for digging, and blamed his aggression on the fence. The likelihood was that she made a mistake and triggered the response herself, especially since it took several approaches by her before the dog retaliated. It is extremely unlikely that he was digging in the radius of the fence field…...
I do hope you can get your boyfriend to change his mind (by fair means or foul!) as I totally agree with the other postings. There are very few Basenjis with no prey drive whatsoever and as most of us seem to agree 'it works until it doesn't'!!
Isn't that the truth Patty… it works till it doesn't!
Our two Goldens respected an invisible fence, but the Basenji– not so much. Sometimes, they don't even respect the visible ones. We installed a picket fence at our last house, and I decided I wanted those pretty scallops. Our B-girl quickly found she could get a little momentum going and clear the center dip in our 4' fence. Now I have a 6' shadowbox, and that's done the trick.
