Anyone ever buy a puppy from Hilltop Meadows in Caldwell TX

[tanza]

@Holly:

Vickay–-I am also glad to hear about your decision. I wish that I had found this forum BEFORE I bought Binti. I know the others would have steered me into a much better decision. I did not realize all the other breeds Candyce was breeding and was sorry when I realized that I had, indeed, supported a puppy mill type operation. Good for you!!! And I will do better next time. Have fun with your puppy when you get him/her!!

But the thing to remember here is that you have reconized that she is a BYB/Puppymill…. and now you know to do your homework, so kudos to you!

[bewler]

I just want to say that since becoming a member of this forum I have gained a true respect for breeders like the ones here. It is inspiring to see so many people who care about the animals they are breeding and doing so just to make sure that Basenjis remain sound and healthy. I always had some misconceptions about breed fancies and those who breed dogs, but I no longer hold those views, thanks to you guys. You have educated me and opened my eyes and for that, I thank you. I think I will always adopt my dogs - I have no desire to deal with puppy shenanigans! But, it is good to know that there are people out there who are trying to ensure that the Basenjis they breed are well cared for, valued and the result of careful and thoughtful pairings. So, Kudos to you guys and thanks for all of the great information!

[CongoMama]

@vickayx:

How is it that she would make a profit when she charges less then a normal breeder though? I am not defending her in anyway I was just puzzled.

Interesting question.

Let's see. If she has three bitches which she breeds every year for a period of say, 4 years, and each bitch has on average 5 puppies, she has the potential to make:

Income potential - PM:

3 bitches x 5 pups each x 4 years = 60 pups
If she sells each for average $500 = $30,000 or $7,500 a year.

total: 7,500.00

However - we must take into account her expenses.

Expense potential:

1/Stud fee = $0 (usually owns the male(s) who is oftentimes related to the female(s))
2/Genetic health testing = $0 (usually only does this when pressed to do so)
3/Show or performance venue expenses to prove form and function of breeding stock: $0
4/ General vet care: dew claws, first exam, vaccinations, wormings: avg $50 - does not do dewclaws or a vet exam, usually buys products online and administers themselves

Now then, to compare:

Responsible breeder (RB): Caveat: A responsible breeder only breeds one, maybe two bitches a year; usually only breeds them once or twice in their lifetime, and oftentimes does not breed every year.

For the sake of comparing - we will give the RB the same number of bitches/puppies as the puppymiller.

Income - RB:
3 bitches x 5 pups each x 4 years = 60 pups
Sells each for average $1000 = $60,000 (less 1 pup from each litter which they keep since resp. breeders first breed for themselves - 12 x $1,000 - $12,000 or $48,000)

Total= $48,000 or $12,000/year

Expense:

Stud fee = cost of a puppy or $1,000 x 3 bitches = $3,000/ year

total: $3,000/year

Genetic health testing =
a/ Hips/elbows/patellas - done once, age 2 - most do it under anesthesia, avg. total for all plus OFA applications = $500 x 3 = $1,500 /4 years = $375/year

b/ Eyes - needs to be done yearly: avg $60 a year, per bitch, bitch is tested from birth through end of last breeding (age 6) = $360 per bitch x 3 bitches = $1,080 (Most RB's will continue to test until death - so in truth - we should add another 8 years on for each or another $1,440)

c/ Thyroid - needs to be done yearly: avg $180 a year, per bitch, bitch is tested from birth through end of last breeding (age 6) = $1,080. per bitch x 3 bitches = $3,240 (Most RB's will continue to test until death - so in truth - we should add another 8 years on for each or another $4,320)

d/ Fanconi - done once for the dams: $65 x 3 = $195.00 /4 years = $48.75
d1/ Fanconi - most RB's test the pups BEFORE going home so $65 x 60 pups = $3,900/4 years = 975/year
e/ Heart (should be by board cert cardiologist) - done once avg cost $100 x 3 = $300
7/ Dewclaws/Exam/vaccinations/wormings: most take to a vet for all of this - avg visit per bitch $200 x 3 = $300/year plus dewclaw visit of $300 (however most RB's do not let their pups leave until 10-12 weeks which means a second vet visit is needed 300x 2 =$600)

total: $6619 (or $12379 if you include the continued yearly testing of eyes and thyroids done on those who were bred)

Show/performance venue expenses to prove form and function of breeding stock - these are seriously deflated in today's economy:

Avg cost of dog show entry - $25 x 3 bitches = $75/show

Avg number of shows/venues (not weekends) entered each year to get various titles = 100 shows x $75 = $7500/year for all three

Avg travel expenses (gas, hotel, wear and tear on car, parking) to obtain these titles = $100/show x 100 shows = $10000

total: $17500

Net profit:

PM profit/loss: 7,450 - IN their pocket (7,500 inc less 50 exp)
RB profit/loss: <15,119> - OUT of their pocket (12,000 - 3,000 (stud fees) - 6,619. (health testing) - 17,500. = <$15,119> )

Expenses I could have added to the RB's side: time and energy spent socializing, quality vet care, high quality food, vaccine protocol adherence creating more vet visits, microchips, puppy packets, lifelong education/support of puppy buyer, etc., etc., etc.

In truth - you then have to multiply the PM profit by the number of breeds they breed (most who whelp twice a year) and well, it can be rather lucrative for some of them.

(I apologize in advance if my math is wrong - not my area of expertise), but I think one can see the general idea!;)

[dcmclcm4]

It appears that Sheila Maxwell of Keota, OK sold her Basenjis to this breeder in TX. I am familiar with Shelia Maxwell as I met her at a dog auction. If you know the name of the sire and dam of the pup, I may know some of the dogs and their health issues in their pedigrees.

Jennifer

[tanza]

Well done CongoMama and if people search the Forums for posts by lvoss, she also has recaps of litter costs by a responsible breeder.

Keep in mind also all that was said by CongoMama is if everything goes perfect…. read lvoss accounts when it doesn't! I would seriously doubt that a BYB/Miller would do what lvoss has done to make sure that everything that could be done, was.....

Here are two links:

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?4429

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?10589

[eeeefarm]

CongoMama, you forgot to feed them!! For sure responsible breeders don't make a lot of profit, if any, for their efforts.

[agilebasenji]

I'd like to congratulate our OP for taking the time to do her homework and being open to long-time basenji owner suggestions. It can be hard for your head to overrule your heart, especially when you've seen pics and really want that cute puppy.

I'd also like to give you a little something to think about based on my life experiences with basenjis. I purchased Digital as a 10 month old puppy from a very good breeder. I had an older basenji and a lab at that time and worked away from home. So getting a young puppy would be difficult given my work schedule. Because Diggie came from a breeder that cared about his welfare, he was house broken, leash trained, show trained (he was my first show dog), crate trained, socialized to men/women/kids/other dogs, vet work was done, etc. I brought him into the house and he was past the chew stage and knew to go outside to pee. He was the easiest dog I've ever owned. I also knew a great deal about his temperament - what I saw was what I got. (Although, at 10 months, there can be some later maturing with some dogs.) And off to classes we went. He trained me how to do conformation stuff and together we learned how to do agility, therapy, rally and coursing. He went on to earn 30 (or more) titles. I absolutely adore this dog and could not love him more or be more attached to him if I'd gotten him at 2 months. He is also very attached to me as he as proven time and time again by performing accurately in agility trials. So, my advice, is don't discount older puppies/young adults especially when looking at dogs from good breeders. They are, in many, many ways much easier than a young puppy.

[eeeefarm]

I'd like to second what agilebasenji wrote. I've had five Basenjis, and of those two I raised from pups. Definitely easier to adopt an older pup or adult. If you get one from a good breeder, the hard work is done. My current boy I adopted at age 3. He does not rip up things, including his plush toys, because his breeder taught him not to do that. He's good about nail clipping, teeth scaling, anal glands, you name it. There are no "don't go there" spots on his body. He's a sweetie, and the only negative thing about adopting him was that I swear it took over a year before he accepted the fact that this home was permanent and he wasn't just waiting for his previous Mom to come back and pick him up.

[tanza]

Amen to what agilebasenji posted… it is right on!!!! Thanks Kim for posting that.... great input

[Lysh]

id have to agree about being open minded to an older pup if the option was there.

we got Hope at 8 wks old and we have just recently added her half sister to our 'pack' at 6 months old. She is house trained, toilet trained, socialized etc. and walks perfectly on a lead. Hope is house trained/toilet trained etc which we had no issues with her cos she was a quick learner (except for lead walking - shes a puller but that would be my fault in failing her, we are in training to fix it though lol) but its like getting a puppy thats already trained (well basically it is!) just add in the bonus you dont need to do all the hard work. Its been kinda enjoyable actually. AND. i was one of those skeptical people that dogs wouldnt bond to you if they were older etc - alls i can say is bullshizz! Ebony has bonded so well with us exactly as if we had, had her from younger.

hehe just a thought anyway. Im very proud that you have decided not to get the pup and go through a reputable breeder. you cant beat a pup with a brilliant temperament and thats health tested.

please keep us updated

[vickayx]

Thank u everyone for educating me about the right and wrong of buying/adopting a Basenji puppy. I am so so soooo greatfull and I feel confident that I have people who will help me with any question about Basenjis and dog related questions. It makes me feel good to have this support. Also after reading that break down of what the back yard breeder makes vs a real breeder I feel stupid for what I said but I def now know and will educate others that I know of back yard breeding. This place almost feels like a family and internet family hahaha.

[Chealsie508]

Great decision, I live in mass, about 15 minutes from Eldorado. I got my first pup from them last season. They have great dogs, then again I may be partial.
Good luck

[DebraDownSouth]

Most breeders of many breeds won't place with a home that doesn't crate the dog when alone until they have them long enough to be sure of safe behaviors, paneane.

Sorry Suzee, I have a brat rescue, I volunteer with Brat. They cannot tell you if the dog has Fanconi since they ONLY strip test– which means they are not currently having symptoms. Doesn't mean spit because they could have Fanconi and not show it yet.

[Nemo]

I see you have found a breeder and some others to talk to, but in case you need help finding more people to talk to you can also contact the BCOA Breeder Liaison. If that hyperlink doesn't work you can find it under Breeder Referral at the link below. Sandy may also have an idea of who is breeding in your area this year.

https://www.basenji.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=111&Itemid=94

And as a comment on the breeding costs, the breeder I am getting a pup next year had to do a c-section at the emergency vet in the middle of the night. Which you could imagine is not cheap at all.

Clay

[tanza]

@Nemo:

I see you have found a breeder and some others to talk to, but in case you need help finding more people to talk to you can also contact the BCOA Breeder Liaison. If that hyperlink doesn't work you can find it under Breeder Referral at the link below. Sandy may also have an idea of who is breeding in your area this year.

https://www.basenji.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=111&Itemid=94

And as a comment on the breeding costs, the breeder I am getting a pup next year had to do a c-section at the emergency vet in the middle of the night. Which you could imagine is not cheap at all.

Clay

Amen to that Clay! But her dedication to the breed and the welfare of the bitch provided her with a wonderful litter of 7!!!! And hopefully one has your name written all over it!

[vickayx]

So that woman from Texas that is running that puppy mill messaged me the other day displaying pictures of the puppies and mother. I am going to tell her I decided to go with a reputable breeder but I am not sure if I should tell her exactly why I think no one should buy from her. I don't know if that's a good or bad idea. Deep down inside I want to tell her so she knows and she should stop but like I said just really confused..

[tanza]

@vickayx:

So that woman from Texas that is running that puppy mill messaged me the other day displaying pictures of the puppies and mother. I am going to tell her I decided to go with a reputable breeder but I am not sure if I should tell her exactly why I think no one should buy from her. I don't know if that's a good or bad idea. Deep down inside I want to tell her so she knows and she should stop but like I said just really confused..

I would just tell her you are going with a responsible breeder that does all health testing before breeding and let it go at that. I am sure she is well aware that she is a puppy miller and only cares about the almighty dollar. There are so many other things to breeding and placing puppies on top of health testing. She doesn't care who buys, just as long as they have the dollars to pay.

[DebraDownSouth]

I most definitely would tell her WHY. She may listen, she probably won't, but if you say nothing she misses the opportunity to learn.

[dcmclcm4]

I would tell her why because of the lack of health testing. I would definitely mention Fanconi Syndrome and talk about it if she does not know anything about it. I would let her know that most puppy buyers will not buy a puppy without being tested. I doubt Sheila Maxwell mentioned it! Now even some BYBs are testing their sires and dams for it.

Jennifer

[vickayx]

So I told her very simply I had found a breeder closer to me and one that is more reputable. She seemed a little upset. She had responded with I do not understand what you mean by more reputable… honestly I do not want to argue with her.

Good news tomorrow I am taking a 5 hour trip to Mass. to visit Elderado Basenjis. I am sooo sooo excited! Is there any suggestions you guys have for me about what I should ask?