Training "STYLES"

[agilebasenji]

@Patty:

I've just got back from a seminar by Dr Ian Dunbar

You are sooo lucky. I'm jealous.

[DebraDownSouth]

I would love to see Dunbar too.

Patty, you don't have television? Wow.

[Patty]

Yes, Ian Dunbar was amazing and he commanded my total interest for the two days. Most of his methods are ideal for a Basenji in my opinion and he was also vey knowledgeable about them which certainly did impress me because so many dog trainers I've heard, (including Cesar, thank goodness!) have very little experience of working with them.

Debra - we gave up television when our first son was born (54 years ago!!!) as we made the decision that we wanted to raise our children naturally (just like we tried to raise our Basenjis!) and we thought television would waste valuable time when they could explore, read and learn so much without the influence of the media. Occasionally I hear of a programme that I would have loved to see but really don't miss having one. Sorry, off topic!

[Schouiffy]

Everyone is saying what I would be saying… I stay far far far away from Caesar M. My parents used that same methodology (when I was a small child) on our first Basenji - she turned into a fearful, withdrawn dog who could never be around other dogs, had to be muzzled when people were in the house because she bit adults and children. I always regret her life because as much as we loved her and she loved us, she lived a much more pallid existence than a dog should have due to the fact she was improperly trained.

I have trained my Basenji with only positive reinforcement methods, using a variety of cherry picked techniques - including clicker training. I'm happy to say I have a well adjusted bitch, who loves everyone, enjoys cats and dogs, and can be recalled with in 2 feet of live ducks. that's Basenji training. (**THANK YOU **Dr. B.F. Skinner, Karen Pryor, Dr. Dunbar, Jane Killion, Dr. Patricia McConnell and others… )

[DebraDownSouth]

Patty, I know several people who got rid of their tvs. I couldn't. But I did limit my daughter's viewing. I frankly feel it can be good in many ways. But the folks who don't have them don't seem to suffer.

Lauren, I don't care what they say about spite.. dogs do feel spite.

Years ago a friend's husband had experience I challenge anyone to term something that fits better.

He drove a delivery route at the time and when the weather was nice, often took their GSD with them. So one morning he got up, told her she could go bye bye. She was psyched! He goes down and realized it was raining so told her she couldn't go. Lynn and dog watched him leave. The dog went upstairs, carried down one of his shoes, placed it in the middle of the living room rug and pooped in it.

Tell me, what is that if not spite?

[JayCee]

I just love it when folk say Mr Milan can't be all bad as he says you need to feed, exercise and give a dog affection!!!!

Jeepers! They are the MOST basic requirements for caring for any sentient beings - how Mr Milan can get any kudos for stating that is beyond me. I learnt that in nursery school when we had to look after the gerbils.

It is also beyond me that anyone can be surprised that a dog given a well-balanced diet, is given appropriate daily exercise and human contact affection is more likely to be calm/relaxed/happy/receptive to human interaction than a dog that is fed poor diet, not exercised and ignored.

Helena you made a wise decision to stop watching TV all those years ago, as it seems the majority of the Western world has lobotimised itself and lost the ability of 'common sense'.

I would like to give a shout out to Jane Killon, Ian Dunbar, Ray Coppinger, Jean Donaldson, Susan Garrett, Lesley McDevitt and Kay Laurence who among my current favourite reads/DVDs when it comes to dog behaviour and/or training.

Apologies, rant over…. I'm obviously in need of some exercise and the poor diet of 3 coffees per day is doing me no good!

[Vintinck]

JayCee

I live in a county where 30% of adult population is obese (I don't believe the UK is far behind). If people can't control their own diet and exercise, or that of their children, I wouldn't make the assumption that they know how to properly feed and exercise a dog either. Just because you know something needs food and exercise doesn't mean you know how to administer it or in what quantities. Many people I know just think letting the dog out the back door is a proper way to exercise and wonder why their dog is still so hyperactive. Many people just keep their dog's bowl full with whatever grocery store kibble they can buy but wonder why their dog is overweight.

I am not familiar with any of the other trainers you mentioned, just the ones who are on TV and the trainer I take Malu to. My trainer teaches basic obedience using a basic lure-reward style which Malu responds to (most of the time ). Bottom line is there are a lot of great training methods out there but if you don't take care of the "common sense" basics then your dog isn't going to well behaved canine citizen.

[DebraDownSouth]

@JayCee:

Helena you made a wise decision to stop watching TV all those years ago, as it seems the majority of the Western world has lobotimised itself and lost the ability of 'common sense'.

Probably 20 or more years ago, sci fi shows would feature future humans glued to reality tv with human competitions and such, 24/7. And I thought such a view was ridiculous, never going to happen. And here we are in the land of Housewives of XYZ, Survivor, pregnant teens, parents who shouldn't have one child raising 8 or more for the world to watch etc. I don't get it. The closest thing I watch that can be labeled reality tv is Project Runway and the various Andrew Lloyd Webber/John Barrowman musical cast series. Why anyone would revel in watching low/no class slime, fights, lack of morals and manners is beyond me. Yep, if you can't choose quality viewing, Helena's no tv makes sense

@Vintinck:

I think both the mentioned television trainers have some things to offer, but both are far from ideal. Like most people said above, most of CM's techniques won't work well with a Basenji's personality.

CM's techniques are not good for ANY dog. I think you are failing to comprehend his training borders abuse. Victoria is a pretty common sense trainer who understands (as is almost always the case) that the ones needing training are the owners. Not a precision incredible trainer, but I wouldn't worry about my dog in her care either. The difference is oceans wide.

[Vintinck]

There are definitely things I would never do that Millan does, like a kick or an alpha roll, but not all physical touch is bad and its not all abusive either. I wouldn't call a leash jerk abusive (although it can be if applied viciously like you see people do sometimes) and I have definitely used my feet/legs to stop my dog from going a certain way without kicking.
Some of the highly aggressive dogs that he works with probably wouldn't respond to anything other than the dominance style of training that he uses. I don't think I've ever seen Victoria work with a dog that she needed to muzzle so it wouldn't attack her. On the flip side, there is no reason to kick or roll 99.9% of dogs.
I agree that I wouldn't recommend anyone to try and copy his techniques that he uses with extremely bad dogs. If you are a relatively smart person you should be able to watch his show and filter out the things that aren't appropriate for your dog. I don't really watch it that often, but some of the dogs aren't that extremely badly behaved and he doesn't always use extreme techniques to correct those behaviors.

[sharronhurlbut]

vintinck, any rough handling is BAD for a basenji. Anything but positive treatment will come back to "bite" you. Sorry to be so harsh, but that has been my experience. I have done rescue like forever, and these types of treatments put b's into rescue.
Only positive training should be used..EVER!

[Vintinck]

I wouldn't consider it rough. Its more just to get his attention. When teaching sit. I'll give him the sit command. If he doesn't respond, he gets a slight tug on the leash upwards, at which point he sits and then gets rewarded. Its no rougher than a poke or a tap on the shoulder for a person. If he still doesn't respond I will guide him into the position.

As for positive only? That is a little impractical. I don't think you need to punish your dog but some negative reinforcement it is good. For instance, turning your back to a dog that is jumping on you. Its not punishment but it is a good way to negatively enforce the bad behavior. Dogs, along with people, naturally use both positive and negative reinforcement to encourage or discourage behavior. Its not wrong to use a little of both.

[listeme]

I thought that turning your back to the dog was actually considered in the same category as not giving a treat. The attention is the treat. Therefore, turning your back is positive training. No?

(I may be oversimplifying; I'm tired and the puppy will be up verra early.)

[DebraDownSouth]

@Vintinck:

I wouldn't call a leash jerk abusive
Some of the highly aggressive dogs that he works with probably wouldn't respond to anything other than the dominance style of training that he uses.

On the flip side, there is no reason to kick or roll 99.9% of dogs.

If you are a relatively smart person you should be able to watch his show and filter out the things that aren't appropriate for your dog.

As for positive only? That is a little impractical….turning your back to a dog that is jumping on you. Its not punishment

Going to try one more time, then I am done.

Jerking a leash is abusive. Period. You don't have to jerk a dog off it's feet to be abusive. If you have to jerk a dog's leash, you need training.

I WORK rehab with aggressive dogs. You bet I would kick, hit, hang up or body slam a dog who was charging to attack. But there is no excuse, ever, to use physical responses other than in such a DIRE situation… certainly not for TRAINING. What anyone with an ounce of sense learns is that aggressive dogs respond to aggressive responses with increased aggression. It is PRECISELY those types of dogs that CM is going to end up getting someone killed over. Your typical dog he is only going to harm it and its relationship with the trainer. THOSE kinds of dogs someone is going to use his methods on and get bitten, mauled or killed and the dog dead.

If you are relatively smart about dogs and training, you won't waste your time watching that pos CM. You'll pick up some good videos or books or go to Youtube to find positive trainers to actually learn from.

And you seem to not grasp positive training. Positive training doesn't mean you always reward a dog. It sure doesn't mean you don't apply negative reinforcement. Of course ignoring a dog or turning your back is done by POSITIVE trainers. Unlike the old days when people were told to step on the dogs feet if they jumped up! Or give a strong leash correction.

[tlish]

cesar millan doesn't do anything but physically exert his will on dogs. it's not a good scenario. he may be cute and entertaining, but he is not a good dog trainer. i would classify him more as an enforcer - someone to be feared, but not someone to be loved and respected.

[Static]

Seems like people are using the same terms to apply to different things….
Negative Punishment - removal of something to decrease a behavior, such as turning your back/ignoring the dog.
Positive punishment - addition of something to decrease a behavior, such as a leash correction.
Negative reinforcement - I always have a hard time explaining this one even though I know what it is, so here's the definition from Karen Pryor website: "Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases, because that is the only “safe” place—because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed." http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary
Positive reinforcement - addition of something to increase a behavior- treats, toys, praise.

Positive training usually uses negative punishment and positive reinforcement, though I have heard of trainers who say they only use positive reinforcement but I've never seen any of them in action. I, like many others here am not a CM fan and I'm not a fan of Victoria either, though her techniques aren't dangerous or damaging like CMs. I would much rather people watch her show & try to copy her… I just don't find her all that impressive or think she's a really great trainer.

(I'm also have puppy fatigue so I'm sorry if something isn't clear.)

[Quercus]

@Static:

Seems like people are using the same terms to apply to different things….
Negative Punishment - removal of something to decrease a behavior, such as turning your back/ignoring the dog.
Positive punishment - addition of something to decrease a behavior, such as a leash correction.
Negative reinforcement - I always have a hard time explaining this one even though I know what it is, so here's the definition from Karen Pryor website: "Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases, because that is the only ?safe? place?because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed." http://www.clickertraining.com/glossary
Positive reinforcement - addition of something to increase a behavior- treats, toys, praise.

Positive training usually uses negative punishment and positive reinforcement, though I have heard of trainers who say they only use positive reinforcement but I've never seen any of them in action. I, like many others here am not a CM fan and I'm not a fan of Victoria either, though her techniques aren't dangerous or damaging like CMs. I would much rather people watch her show & try to copy her… I just don't find her all that impressive or think she's a really great trainer.

(I'm also have puppy fatigue so I'm sorry if something isn't clear.)

Torture is a good example of negative reinforcement: I will apply this pain to you until you give me my desired outcome.

a simple rule of thumb is that reinforcement makes a desired behavior increase and punishment makes a undesired behavior decrease. Positive means adding something to the equation, negative means taking something away. So you can combine those variables together in different ways to train anything.

Most people avoid negative reinforcement, because although it is effective, it ruins the relationship between trainer and trainee…and most people view it as cruel.

[listeme]

I knew I was getting something all confused there! Thanks for the clarifications.

Again, I blame the puppy.