Oh my....
It was a little tongue-in-cheek my comment about the Basenji looking "pudgy". All 3 dogs appeared well fed. (or hey.... maybe the painter used fat brushes.... 😛 )
That was the extent of my "analysis".
Blue tri basenji
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Its a pretty pup, I like unusual and its certainly that. Seeing it next to the normal tri though, i really do prefer the normal ones. The blue looks kind of washed out or something…
Still, if i got one of those in a litter i'd have to keep it just cos its different lol
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Very beautiful looking pup. Just wanted to let people know Sarah lee–breeder of Nocturnal kennels-- is a very sweet lady and is not a puppy mill. She is one of the few that i know to have the blue color trait.
Just wanted to clear this up.
Color aside…..
While we all have our own ideas on what is or is not a responsible breeder and/or a puppy mill and/or Backyard Breeder, my personal opinion is that this is not a responsble breeder. Why? 1st they breed/sell and have a number of different breeds that they breed and sell (at least 5 different breeds). And in my opinion, there is no way that you can properly socialize puppies having that many. They do not sell on a spay/neuter contract or any contract that I can see, therefore breeding of their puppies produced and sold with or without their knowledge is pretty much a reality. This would lead one to believe there there is no way they can keep track of all the puppies they have bred and sold, so hard to believe that they are responsible and take back any puppy bred/sold if the owners had to give up that particular dog for whatever reason. And/or be responsible for the offspring of anyone breeding any puppy that they have sold/placed.
While I see that they have Fanconi tested a few of the Basenjis (or it could have been offspring) that I could find in Sally's database, 3 of the bitches are carriers, so even bred to a clear, are the puppies tested so that any buyer would know if their pup is a carrier or clear, especially seeing that they don't use spay/neuter contracts? Without that knowledge, that pup could be bred to another carrier and produce affected.
Also, looking at the pictures, clearly to me, the dogs are kept in pretty bleak kennel runs.... and again, in my opinion, are not up to AKC standards in type or conformation. And it doesn't look like they are AKC registered according to Sally's side or the AKC site with the exception of the one MaleFlaming suit ready and waiting
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And it doesn't look like they are AKC registered according to Sally's side or the AKC site with the exception of the one Male
Flaming suit ready and waiting
No flaming from me. I just wanted to add that they are not AKC registered nor are they AKC registerable. The breeder has not provided pedigree information on the blues when asked.
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I would like to know the pedigree since I rescued a few CKC-Continental Kennel Club Bs a few years ago-reds & brindles-all males. They were from different breeders in Southern OH who sold them to an Amish USDA dealer/breeder.
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I would like to know the pedigree since I rescued a few CKC-Continental Kennel Club Bs a few years ago-reds & brindles-all males. They were from different breeders in Southern OH who sold them to an Amish USDA dealer/breeder.
You can go onto Sally's sight and search under Nocturnal Kennels, there is only one with a pedigree on there… while the rest are there because of Fanconi testing they are listed as Unknown/Unknown
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Wow, that pup is absolutely beautiful!
Very different I love it. -
Wow! That's pretty cool!
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Diana Berry of the Sin Kennels produced blues and also creams. These colours were never accepted by the then Basenji Club but Diana was a bit of a rebel and wasn't bothered. At that time the majority of Basenjis with the 'wrong' colours were culled. To my knowledge she never shared but insisted that she could breed the colour any time. I wonder if this dog goes back to them - I haven't checked Sally's database yet. Diana's didn't have blue eyes as I remember but were quite light. I've never talked about them with her son but i've a feeling it might have been before he was born so he might not know.
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While we all have our own ideas on what is or is not a responsible breeder and/or a puppy mill and/or Backyard Breeder, my personal opinion is that this is not a responsble breeder. Why? 1st they breed/sell and have a number of different breeds that they breed and sell (at least 5 different breeds).
Flaming suit ready and waiting
Ok. my "flaming suit" lol
Here goes… I am not going to be rude about my reply, ill just tell you the facts. She has 2 breeds of her own, and her husband breeds two breeds (4) there are dacshunds, westys, terriers(cant remember the bred) and basenjis. They do NOT breed them ALL at the same time. She breeds maybe one or two litters (from one or two of the breeds) Most of these dogs are her pets. They live indoors with her, however some are outside.Also, looking at the pictures, clearly to me, the dogs are kept in pretty bleak kennel runs….
She does have kennels but she created them herself and they are all in working progress. Sarah was in a car accident and has some damage resulting. She does what she can but it may take her a while. She works as hard as she can and for as long as she can. She tries really hard to do whats good for the dogs and she works hard on the kennels. She is continuously working on them. This year, she is plans on painting and building some of the kennel better. But she has a set up so the dogs can go indoors and outdoors. They have heat lamps and during the summer its heated and during the winter its air conditioned.
And in my opinion, there is no way that you can properly socialize puppies having that many.
Beings how she only breeds a couple litters (and they are not all in season at the same time) she has alot of time to work with the puppies. She LOVES her dogs. She plays with them every day and works with them. When people are interested in puppies she works hard to get the pictures of her puppies the way the buyers want the puppies. and she does this weekly so the new owners will be able to see their puppies grow. They all have vaccinations and everything is up to date when they are placed in their new homes.
They do not sell on a spay/neuter contract or any contract that I can see, therefore breeding of their puppies produced and sold with or without their knowledge is pretty much a reality. This would lead one to believe there there is no way they can keep track of all the puppies they have bred and sold, so hard to believe that they are responsible and take back any puppy bred/sold if the owners had to give up that particular dog for whatever reason.
Sarah states she will take back any puppy for any reason at any time in their life. This can be found in her adoption contract, which she does have and requires to be signed. She also has a health guarantee. She just doesnt have a spay and neuter contract because of the following reason. Now I understand your concern on this part. But she feels that people should be able to choose what they do with their dogs. She has her own opinion, just as you have yours. She feels that people who have a spay and neuter contract just make the contract so its harder to find a basenji and since there are less dogs to choose from, breeders can charge outrageous prices for a pet. Now, I UNDERSTAND there are alot of costs that go into breeding and raising puppies, but i do understand her side too. I am not getting into an argument as I am not taking sides. I am simply just sticking up for a friend because, for one she doesnt have alot of expereince with computers and she doesnt get on forums so she cannot defend herself, and because I want people to know her side of the story. (from the source and as a friend of hers)
and again, in my opinion, are not up to AKC standards in type or conformation. And it doesn't look like they are AKC registered according to Sally's side or the AKC site with the exception of the one Male
The ones that can be registered to AKC are registered. As i have posted somewhere else on these forums, Sarah inherited the blue basenjis from a friend. When her friend passed away, she got these dogs. The lady's son was a complete jerk and couldnt care less for the dogs. His main priority was to get the house cleaned out and sell it for lots of money. So the AKC part is not her fault. AKC regularly checks out her kennels just like they do yours (im assuming they do). There is a man in her area, with AKC, that comes and inspects things in and around her kennel. The dogs and the puppies. as for the site, we are working on getting them on there ( i asked if i could help her so they are on there for people as i would like to see more basenjis on there also) I have contacted Sally and she is helping us get it done. It takes hours and hours to get things updated on the site and she told us to bare with her as she will do it when she can. We are also going to get the parents and stuff on the site of the ones that are on there as much as she can do/remember.
While I see that they have Fanconi tested a few of the Basenjis (or it could have been offspring) that I could find in Sally's database, 3 of the bitches are carriers, so even bred to a clear, are the puppies tested so that any buyer would know if their pup is a carrier or clear, especially seeing that they don't use spay/neuter contracts? Without that knowledge, that pup could be bred to another carrier and produce affected.
In a recesssion, money is always an issue. Just stating a fact. but She actally just got done ordering some more tests for Fanconi for 4 more of the basenjis of hers. She is very careful on which basenjis she buys so she doesnt have to worry about Fanconi. However she tests them when she can just to be on the safe side. now IMO, I think that if someone breeds a dog, they should have it tested. So even if she didnt test the fanconi on the puppies, if someone is going to breed it, they should do it regardless of if she says it has fanconi or not. So somneone who breeds a carrier to a puppy they dont know–and it produces affected offsprind--would be stupid and it would be their fault as they shouldnt be breeding if they dont want to do it right. IMO, it shouldnt be her fault if that should happen. If someone were to sell you a puppy and say it was clear, wouldnt you test it just to be sure anyways? Even if you KNOW the parents are CL? I would because it puts more Basenjis into the database and you know for sure.
Now this is all just MY OPINION. And we are all open to our own opinions. Anyways there is my "flaming suit" take it for what its worth.
I honestly believe Sarah is a nice, animal caring lady. She genuinely cares for her dogs and she doesnt breed alot of dogs at the same time because she knows she wouldnt be able to handle it. She loves dogs and she wants what is best for them. Since you do not know her personally i dont feel it is right of you to judge her. She may not do things the same as you, or alot of other breeders, but she establishes a relationship with her puppy's owners and she tries to keep in contact. IMO,You cant tell me that EVERY SINGLE PERSON that you have adopted a puppy to has kept in contact. If so, that is amazing because, beings how you seem to be a well known basenji breeder, you have probably produced quite a few litters (co litters included) and I cant believe you would be so lucky to have kept contact with ALL of the owners of every single one of your puppies. There are some nice people but some people just dont care to keep contact--even tho i wish everyone would (with my rescue included in this wishing)
Anyways that is all im going to say now. You can share your opinion again, as i would like to hear it, or we can drop this. Its up to you. But Sarah is my friend, and a good person and i REALLY wish you wouldnt judge her without knowing her as its not fair to her.
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The ones that can be registered to AKC are registered. As i have posted somewhere else on these forums, Sarah inherited the blue basenjis from a friend. When her friend passed away, she got these dogs. The lady's son was a complete jerk and couldnt care less for the dogs. His main priority was to get the house cleaned out and sell it for lots of money. So the AKC part is not her fault.
But breeding them without registration is and is NOT responsible. If they are not registered then they should be spayed/neutered. If the registration cannot be legally transferred to her name then they should be spayed/neutered.
In a recesssion, money is always an issue. Just stating a fact. She actally just got done ordering some more tests for Fanconi for 4 more of the basenjis of hers. She is very careful on which basenjis she buys so she doesnt have to worry about Fanconi. However she tests them when she can just to be on the safe side
If in a recession you can't afford to test then you can't afford to breed. There is no such thing as clear by parentage with a marker test, every dog must be tested not "to be on the safe side" but to actually know its marker status. To breed without that testing is outright irresponsible and no justification for purposely breeding without it is going to change that fact.
How do you feel about this breeder having produced Affected offspring when a test was available to prevent it? She has done exactly that so by your own stated opinion this is a wrong thing and yet you are here defending her.
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And, I just want to point out that people here are not judging this woman personally, none of us know her. But we are judging her actions…and there is nothing unfair about that. All of us will be judged by our actions fair or not.
A very good friend of ours who was the MOST responsible breeder ever was also in a car accident. She decided to stop breeding because she could no longer do it the way she felt it should be done. THAT is a responsible breeder, IMO.
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Miss P…have you actually met this woman...in person?
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Ok. my "flaming suit" lol
Here goes… I am not going to be rude about my reply, ill just tell you the facts. She has 2 breeds of her own, and her husband breeds two breeds (4) there are dacshunds, westys, terriers(cant remember the bred) and basenjis. They do NOT breed them ALL at the same time. She breeds maybe one or two litters (from one or two of the breeds) Most of these dogs are her pets. They live indoors with her, however some are outside.And in total they have 6 breeds, I assume that she and her husband live in the same place? Therefore they have 6 breeds, border line Puppy Mill, In My Opinion. And as far as breeding them all at one time, obviously you have to breed them when they are in season… So I am sure that it is very possible that there are multi litters on the ground at one time.
I would seriously doubt that they are her pets... they are her/his income
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A very good friend of ours who was the MOST responsible breeder ever was also in a car accident. She decided to stop breeding because she could no longer do it the way she felt it should be done. THAT is a responsible breeder, IMO.
This is a fact… so this person should not be breeding if she has physical/mental limitations.... or the funds to properly test before breeding.
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Speaking as a rescue person, this woman should have these puppies sold with a spay/neuter contact. It helps stop the "littering".
Anyone who sells basenji that are not show quality, or going to improve the breed, need to make sure the puppies are fixed. -
ok i understand where all of you are coming from. I was just trying to defend her because alot of people on here are calling her a puppy mill, though not knowing her, and i think it is not right to do so. You are giving her a bad name tho u dont know her.
But i do understand where you are coming from, but please just dont sit there and bad mouth her when she isnt here to defend herself is all i ask.
please?And in total they have 6 breeds, I assume that she and her husband live in the same place? Therefore they have 6 breeds, border line Puppy Mill, In My Opinion. And as far as breeding them all at one time, obviously you have to breed them when they are in season… So I am sure that it is very possible that there are multi litters on the ground at one time.
I would seriously doubt that they are her pets... they are her/his income
Tanza, do you KNOW this? Do you KNOW she has 6 breeds and where did you hear/learn it from? Im really just wondering, i am curious as to your source of it and how you know? im asking as kindly as i can type. Have you talked to her in person before? or was it from another person who told you. And When did you hear this because it could have been lately she went down on breeds. M. O., just wondering. NOT trying to erouse anyone into an argument, im just asking.
And yes they may come into season at the same time but that doesnt mean you HAVE to breeds them. You can keep male dogs away from the females if you dont want a litter…and she does this. She choosen a few to breed and plan this and then she socializes the puppies that you have. And she DOES keep some as her pets, i didnt say ALL of them but she does keep the ones that are house acceptable, the ones she wants inside. I know for sure of a couple Basenjis that live inside. I believe she has maybe 5 basenjis in total outside. I cant be for sure so dont quote me on that, but i believe thats right. And like i said its AC and Heated when needed.And, I just want to point out that people here are not judging this woman personally, none of us know her. But we are judging her actions…and there is nothing unfair about that. All of us will be judged by our actions fair or not.
Ok i understand this. And i appreciate you being nice about it as you have always been nice to be and i honestly thank you and respect you alot. but i think for her not to be here to defend herself, its not right of everyone to express things the way they are doing because if someone who is new to the breed or to the forums or on the topic comes here and reads that "she is a puppy mill" and all, that they will believe it without knowing the truth or at least hearing her side of the story. you know? Dont you see it from my side too? This is honeslty just IMO, but i dont think that is fair to her.
this is MY OPINION and i hope you wont think badly of me)But breeding them without registration is and is NOT responsible. If they are not registered then they should be spayed/neutered. If the registration cannot be legally transferred to her name then they should be spayed/neutered.
I do agree with this but in the same sense what if later on she does find a way to legally transfer them, she just doesnt know right now? Or what if somehow the jerk of a guy decides to be nice and hand her the papers (i dont know that that will ever happen but its possible i think) and if she does get them all spayed and neutered and then finds a way to register them then that is a loss to the genetics as everyone has been telling me is important to keep the breed alive. IMO, i dont mean to offend or rile up anyone im just asking, isnt that true? Maybe im wrong, i appologize if i am…
If in a recession you can't afford to test then you can't afford to breed.
She tests when the funds are available and when she plans to breed. She wont breed unless the tests have been done. And if she cant afford the test, she simply doesnt breed a pair in which she doesnt know health wise/test result wise.
There is no such thing as clear by parentage with a marker test, every dog must be tested not "to be on the safe side" but to actually know its marker status. To breed without that testing is outright irresponsible and no justification for purposely breeding without it is going to change that fact.
Now this is a question from me, not regarding her. If the clear is not possible, why do people put it on their websites as clear/normal if there is no such thing? I am curious about this myself. All other things non related. Im asking because i honestly dont know and would like to know the answer.
How do you feel about this breeder having produced Affected offspring when a test was available to prevent it? She has done exactly that so by your own stated opinion this is a wrong thing and yet you are here defending her.
Do you KNOW this? Like has she told you so? Im just wondering and im HONESTLY not trying to be rude or mean about it im honestly just wondering because i dont know, But I defend my friends because that is the kind of person i am. I dont like to hear people bad mouth other people, i just dont and never have. and when a friend is involved then I do just that. even if it causes me to get into an argument (which i honestly dont like being in desputes, I like things to be happy and no tension.) I hope no one takes my words offensively, i just am asking.
This is a fact… so this person should not be breeding if she has physical/mental limitations.... or the funds to properly test before breeding.
She has limitations but they are not like…i dont know how to put it. she still gets along fine and is active, its just some things she forgets and the physical part she cant sit behind a desk for a long time, or go for long car rides and things like that. I was just saying she has them but it doesnt make her useless. and the funds part: she does test before she breeds and if she cant test she doesnt breed. or she only breeds a dog that she knows are tested. I ask you this from MY POINT, not defending her. I am again curious. Wasnt it you that said breeding a carrier is the only way to preserve the breed? so even if she breeds the carriers to the clears, how is that bad? PLEASE dont take that in a rude or defensive way i am asking strictly to learn. I would like to know why that would be bad for my own experience.
Speaking as a rescue person, this woman should have these puppies sold with a spay/neuter contact. It helps stop the "littering".
Anyone who sells basenji that are not show quality, or going to improve the breed, need to make sure the puppies are fixed.Being a fellow rescuer, i understand where you are coming from. but, and again this is MO, but i have had alot of rescue dogs and alot of people who signed the contract saying they would spay and neuter and then they moved or changed their number/contact info and I now do not know where they are to ensure they have spayed and neutered….but anyways but being someone who is looking for a Basenji as a pet is where its hard to tell you what im trying to say. When you want a pet, you dont want to pay ALOT of money, especially if you are just going to spay and neuther them anyways(which is even more money). Lets say a breeder asks for 900 for a pet price. Honestly to get a puppy for that cost for a pet is crazy to me. If i want to spend that much money i wouldnt want to spay it, id want to start showing and give it a chance to help the gene pool. She sells hers for i believe like 500. Which would be ok to spend to spay and neuter it. But she doesnt want to charge more for you to have to keep it from being unfixed because that is, i am assuming, how she was raised. Maybe how we were raised has alot of things to do with how we are now. So she just sells them for a flat fee for the owner. No more money for extra rights. ALOT of people i know think that way. Whether its right or wrong, she is one of them. But i really do understand the spay and neuter part. If i got into breeding id do the spay and neuter contract and if they wanted a show id do co-ownership or REALLY get to know them before id ever think about just giving a puppy of mine to a breeder. But im just saying that,--and I REALLY hope people dont take this out of context--, but to pay alot for a puppy to just be a companion to live in the home and never to breed, 900 is alot. (And I know it costs alot to breed but if you are in it for breeding and bettering the breed and not the money, wouldnt you want your puppies to go into a good home anyways even if the price was lower and you KNEW they were going to be spayed? Everyone says its not about the money so breeding a litter, knowing how much it costs, shouldnt be about selling them for 900 when a simple 500 would do for jus that, a pet. THIS IS MY OPINION, and i REALLY hope no one will use it against me, im just trying to say how i feel..whether its wrong or not) 900 is just an example, also.
Anyways, im just saying is all. I know i will be bashed around for a few things i say but im only telling my opinion just as everyone else does. ...anyways. ill wait for some responses as i know ill get alot. but this is just MO and nothing else
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Miss P…have you actually met this woman...in person?
I just wanted to bump this up. I can't remember if you said you have personally visited her kennels, or if this has all been phone and photo correspondence.
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I have plans of visitin in the future but yes all of this is over the phone, emails, and photos.
I know this will get alot of attention as I havent met in person but I know she is a good lady and we have talked for a LONG time and I feel as if i HAVE visited her. Since we live so far away i havent been able to actually meet her but i do plan on going up and visiting and talking even more eventually. I know this will be hard to believe for alot of people on here since i am defending her so much, but she is a friend and I trust her alot.
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Ok. my "flaming suit" lol
Here goes… I am not going to be rude about my reply, ill just tell you the facts. She has 2 breeds of her own, and her husband breeds two breeds (4) there are dacshunds, westys, terriers(cant remember the bred) and basenjis. They do NOT breed them ALL at the same time. She breeds maybe one or two litters (from one or two of the breeds) Most of these dogs are her pets. They live indoors with her, however some are outside.You ask how I know that there are 6 breeds? Please read you own post, you are the one that said it?
And there is no one that I know of that could possibily raise well socialized puppies with that many breeds.
And not sure that I understand your question about the Fanconi testing and there is no such thing as "clear/normal"? All of the test results aremarked "PROBABLY" because it is a linkage test and most of us have links to OFA site and the test results. So there most certainly is "clear/normal"…. and since there are now 3569 Basenjis in the Fanconi data base that have been tested, the results are right on what you would expect to see knowing the pedigrees. Either you are a responsible breeder or you are not.. and if responsible no need to defend.
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I have plans of visitin in the future but yes all of this is over the phone, emails, and photos.
I know this will get alot of attention as I havent met in person but I know she is a good lady and we have talked for a LONG time and I feel as if i HAVE visited her. Since we live so far away i havent been able to actually meet her but i do plan on going up and visiting and talking even more eventually. I know this will be hard to believe for alot of people on here since i am defending her so much, but she is a friend and I trust her alot.
Just my opinion, but I think she is playing you. It sounds like there are a lot of excuses as to why she does things the way she does. When I am in that situation, I start to wonder if the person is telling the truth..or at least the whole truth.
Just be aware…...
