Nice post, glad to be here.
Best Basenji of all time?
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How about this for a thread - Which dog is in your opinion the best and most typical basenji of all time?
The Kennel Club do a feature like that in the Gazette, where judges choose 3 favourites - not owned or bred by them.
I would find it interesting to here peoples views on the best of the best.
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What's the criteria?
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suppose criteria will be different for everyone - whether its show wins, overall benefit to the breed, whatever.
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that is so difficult to answer, as a breeder I might have a different opinion on this, you see as a breeder one should not concentrate purely on show wins, and dogs that have been bred very much are not benefitting the breed in anyways as one limits the gene pool TOO much this way. I dont like inbreeding to get superdogs. as most of the time they only look super from looks, with the limited genepool you can get all sorts of other stuff going on that reallty dont benefit the breed, sometimes inbreeding can help a breeder to show the inherited diseases sloping in the genes of these lines, but a lot of breeders only inbreed because they hope to get this supershowdog, how shallow that is and not good for the breed
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Okay, I will bite…my criteria in answering this question is purely typey looking show basenjis, who I have seen in person...nothing else. I didn't include dogs from the past, because I don't really know enough about them only seeing still photos...but there are some that would definitely fall into my 'best ever' category.
Johnny - Ch. Zindika's Johnny Come Greatly
Nate - Ch. Akuaba's Tornado
Simba - Ch. Reveille Bouteniere (however you spell that!)Yes, they are all big winning dogs...and IMO they deserve to be...yes, they all had flaws....but all dogs do. Each was so typey and so stunning, that they are among my all time top favorites.
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I believe that some of the very best basenjis likely finished their CH and retired to the couch - it is not necessarily the best basenji that wins the most best in shows BUT the best campaigned basenji that being shown extensively. There are many of us on the list that show - finish a dog and no one may see the dog again until a time or two at veteran - that does not mean that the dog is not the quality of a top winner - just means we don't want to - or don't have the money to travel the country 365 days a year.
There are dogs that are significant because of the traits that they passed on to their get, there are dogs that are significant because then consistantly produced good (insert feature here) . There are dogs and bitches that contributed things that we have to work around. There are several things that I think of so I"ll take a stab at it.
Re-up, Smooth operator of Woz, Reliant Inferno - are a few oldies that I think offered some significant things to the breed.
Johnny - brought great visibility to the brindle coat at a time when few had seen it (didn't hurt that he was a pretty nice dog too)
Nate - added some refinement to some lines that maybe had gotten too cobby
Bravo - in the show ring - pushed the envelope in BIS when few looked at the basenji as a Best in Show Candidate.
Mira - beautiful bitch who produced consistantly Tootsie who appears to produce consistantly with different sires.
Geez there are tons more - if any of you still have your old 'years of the american basenji' I am sure you will find tons of animals in there that you would like to consider - have no idea how to reduce to just a few.
In any event that's a few of the animals that sprung to mind immediatly
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I agree…there are so many different directions you could go with this.....if we are talking about what dogs have improved different areas, I would vote for Patton - Ch. Jerlin's General Patton...for improving movement in many lines.
Bravo and Mira are also on my list of all time greats, but I have never seen them in person...so I limited my list to those I have actually seen
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I agree on Patton - I know that he did wonderful things with my line - My foundation bitch still looked like a puppy at 6 so I was hoping to add some earlier maturity - and certainly did with Patton. I had Type and nice movement but was looking for more chest and to not loose the movement I had but to build on it. Certainly did with that.
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I believe that some of the very best basenjis likely finished their CH and retired to the couch - it is not necessarily the best basenji that wins the most best in shows BUT the best campaigned basenji that being shown extensively. There are many of us on the list that show - finish a dog and no one may see the dog again until a time or two at veteran - that does not mean that the dog is not the quality of a top winner - just means we don't want to - or don't have the money to travel the country 365 days a year.
There are dogs that are significant because of the traits that they passed on to their get, there are dogs that are significant because then consistantly produced good (insert feature here) . There are dogs and bitches that contributed things that we have to work around. There are several things that I think of so I"ll take a stab at it.
Re-up, Smooth operator of Woz, Reliant Inferno - are a few oldies that I think offered some significant things to the breed.
Johnny - brought great visibility to the brindle coat at a time when few had seen it (didn't hurt that he was a pretty nice dog too)
Nate - added some refinement to some lines that maybe had gotten too cobby
Bravo - in the show ring - pushed the envelope in BIS when few looked at the basenji as a Best in Show Candidate.
Mira - beautiful bitch who produced consistantly Tootsie who appears to produce consistantly with different sires.
Geez there are tons more - if any of you still have your old 'years of the american basenji' I am sure you will find tons of animals in there that you would like to consider - have no idea how to reduce to just a few.
In any event that's a few of the animals that sprung to mind immediatly
Thanks for the responses so far - its really interesting to find out who (in the opinion of others ) really significant dogs were - and of course it doesnt meant to say they had to be the top winners - it could be ones who improved the breed in certain desirable features etc. For instance when we did a similar excercise for the Dobermann, one of my favourites was not a champion but had an amazing head and great substance - Wilm von Forrell a german import to Britain- when other teenagers had popstars posters on their wall, i had a page from the 1978 Dog World Annual with a pic of Wilm on it above my bed!
Dmcarty - i know in America the well known dogs get known by their call name, but it might be useful to us foreigners to know the registered names of the dogs you mentioned?
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I would have to put Ch Kazor's Dandy Deerstalker on that list of exceptional Basenjis. He was a bit to the big size, but was a lovely dog and had llovely offspring (Grand/Greatgrand/Great,Greatgrand offspring) that are still producing today. Too bad, like Nate that he also had Fanconi… but I can tell you one thing, if he had been collected.. I would use him in a flash on a clear bitch.
I will also add that I would include Ch Reliant Inferno and Patton (Ch Jerlin's General Patton).... -
Thanks for the responses so far - its really interesting to find out who (in the opinion of others ) really significant dogs were - and of course it doesnt meant to say they had to be the top winners - it could be ones who improved the breed in certain desirable features etc.
I just loved this thread!!!! I am also trying to get a grip on the different lines and what they have to offer. Yes registered names are very important to those of us who would not know the call names. Thank you for sharing info about bitches who had important legacies. Since a lot of genetic studies are pointing at the females having a greater impact than males, it is even more important to discuss GREAT females.
I am "stalking" not just great winning conformation lines but also great health lines, great temperament lines, great trainability lines and movement lines.
Would love to hear from Europe and Australia on this topic.
I would like to mention a US dog named CH Astarte Osiris who had excellent hips, temperament, trainability, movement and conformation. I was told he won the Show Of Shows in Mexico City a long time ago. He has a lovely legacy.
I agree that we should never get "winning" obsessed in our choices. A great match might be less campaigned so less notorious or famous but produce a Speciality Winner!!!!!
I feel that those of us who can show could help those who can't for some reason. This way many great dogs could come out of hiding and the Global Basenji Genetic Pool would benefit from it. If we all helped eachother, the breed would benefit from it.
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I would have to put Ch Kazor's Dandy Deerstalker on that list of exceptional Basenjis. He was a bit to the big size, but was a lovely dog and had llovely offspring (Grand/Greatgrand/Great,Greatgrand offspring) that are still producing today. QUOTE]
Here is a link to Kazors Dandy Deerstalker so you can see what he looks like
http://www.basenji.org/BasenjiU/Owner/103History/Honor/SD/KazorsDandyDeerstalker.pdf -
Here is a link for Johnny
http://www.basenji.org/BasenjiU/Owner/103History/Honor/SD/ZindikasJohnnyComeGreatly.pdfOkay, I will bite…my criteria in answering this question is purely typey looking show basenjis, who I have seen in person...nothing else. I didn't include dogs from the past, because I don't really know enough about them only seeing still photos...but there are some that would definitely fall into my 'best ever' category.
Johnny - Ch. Zindika's Johnny Come Greatly
Nate - Ch. Akuaba's Tornado
Simba - Ch. Reveille Bouteniere (however you spell that!)Yes, they are all big winning dogs...and IMO they deserve to be...yes, they all had flaws....but all dogs do. Each was so typey and so stunning, that they are among my all time top favorites.
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The article in the Gazette was very interesting and I found some of the choices quite different. I particularly liked Glenway Dymock's choices -Fulafuture of the Congo, Cambria's TiMungai and Mzalia Private Dancer - the latter two only from photographs (which I know are not always accurate).
I thought that Lograk Lubilash (which several picked) was a stunning dog but because he was pre-Fula wasn't used as much as he should have been. He was a typical Basenji with wonderful temperament, structure and movement. He passed on all these attributes to his offspring - so many really good dogs fail in this respect, in my opinion.
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love this thread….
although my names got picked already.. -
Great topic. This could go on for some time i think!
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Simba - Ch. Reveille Bouteniere (however you spell that!)
Ch. Reveille Boutonniere is Kipawa's great great great grandfather, I believe!
