Raw food

[Voodoo]

@eeeefarm:

In the wild, a predator would be eating stomach and intestine contents of the prey, so getting veggies and grain that way.

All our dogs (and our raccoon dogs) always have emptied the stomach by shaking it before eating it with all prey bigger then a mouse or small rat.
I don't know how the commercial raw diets are in the USA, but over here, most don't include any veggies or grains or so. And feeding a commercial complete raw food, isn't really considered feeding raw over here, but more like something between feeding dry food and raw food. If you say you are feeding raw over here, it means that you are feeding real pieces of meat and bones, together with intestines and such. For most people, that comes down to feeding mostly chicken-carcasses with then every day another type of meat, bones and intestines. And then there are now more and more people who are thinking raw isn't good enough anymore, and are feeding a 'natural raw' diet. And that is giving whole prey like chickens, rabbits, hares, mouse, deadborn farm animals…

[eeeefarm]

Interesting differences in approach. Whatever works I guess, if it keeps your dog healthy. Around here coyotes don't leave much of the carcass and seem to devour stomach contents, at least judging by the little that is left behind. I don't feed raw myself, but dehydrated which has been reconstituted with water. Has the advantage of being convenient and easy to store, and I don't like kibble, which is far more processed. Bones can cause problems. Chipped teeth, constipation, etc. But dogs are scavengers and will make do with whatever they find. That's how they evolved to being dogs, after all.

[DebraDownSouth]

I believe in raw, have fed fully then partly raw for about 16 yrs. Now I cannot. Arwen has an autoimmune problem, which is the only reason I would not advise raw, and cara, no matter how small the amt I start her on, gets diarrhea. But I absolutely believe done right, raw is the best.

[Voodoo]

It's kind of a 'big thing' over here and most that feed raw are very passionate about it. I don't care that much really. Most important reason why I fed raw was the extra mental stimulation the dogs got. But it is like you said, dogs are scavengers and will eat everything that seems edible to them and will do well on it. A good dry food isn't bad for a dog. Sure it is processed and contains grains or other rather useless ingredients to keep it all together, but it also contains everything that a dog need. It's a save option that is really easy. When giving raw (not the commercial stuff, as that is almost as easy as dry food) you need to make sure that they get everything they need in the right quantities. Not that hard, but I've seen quite a few people who did it wrong. And especially when doing it wrong with a pup, it can harm the dogs. Same as with giving them bones. Some bones are suited to give to dogs, others are not (to hard, will splinter). Feeding raw is something you have to learn and wich you best start doing with the help of someone who knows what he is doing.

[Patty]

Raw is raw whether fed from a packet or on the hoof. It just seems more natural to feed 'on the hoof' but some people don't have access toi that.

[Voodoo]

Oh, but I agree with you Patty. Just wanted to tell that that isn't the case anymore for a lot of people over here. They really are divided in seperate camps. The ones who feed commercial raw diets, the ones who make the diets themself and the ones who feed whole prey, and a lot are pretty fanatic about it.

But it all doesn't matter that much. Just feed your dog what you like and what he likes. Like I said, I'm feeding dryfood again now for the biggest part. I like how easy that is and Voodoo just dives into his foodbowl when I present it, so I guess he doesn't mind eating kibble. He is healthy and looks good, so we are both happy with it.

[Bettawhippet]

I am thinking about switching my B, Kiora, to Raw. My beautiful mixed breed baby, Ananda, had to be put to sleep on Saturday. She had what was likely bone marrow cancer. I never thought a dog of mine would get cancer because for many years I have fed them high quality, grain free, kibble. Although I did feed Ananda very bad food (Purina, Iams…etc) for the first 3 years of her life before I became educated about dog foods. Now I am kind of feeling like my efforts were insufficient.

So I would like to switch Kiora onto a raw, or mostly raw, diet. I do have a few concerns/questions:

I have read when buying raw it is more ecomonical to purchase in bulk, however I do not have the space to store the quanities that I was reading (30 lb boxes). Buying another freezer is not an option. Is it really outrageous to buy meat that is not in bulk? I would be willing to spend 50 or maybe 60 dollars a month...can I feed one 22 lb basenji raw on that budget?

Time is another potential constraint. I am reading that it takes more time and effort to feed raw. Most of the time I can take a few extra minutes to feed her but being a college student who also works, some days I just want to crash on the couch and can't even prepare myself food. Would it be fine to feed her food I've prepared for her most of the week but then feed her some pre-packaged raw mixed with a little kibble a couple times a week?

I am also concerned about the bones. I know raw bones don't splinter but Kiora is such a chow hound I am worried she will choke on a bone in her zeal. Is it o.k to grind up the meat in a food processor so that the bone is mixed in finely with the rest of the meat? What about for a larger animal? Give her bones so big she can't possibly choke?

I hope it is appropriate to ask these questions here. I was going to start my own thread but this seemed to be the thread designated for questions/comments on raw.

[Henna420]

Hi. We have an option of buying either 10lb bulk or 50lb. You do save a little bit of $ money buying 50lb but we dont have a seperate freezer either. We have two Bs and it cost us $60/month….thats not bad at all. Not worried about the bones...they are crushed with meat and the veggies.
And it doesnt take much time...we have 1lb bricks. We leave one in the fridge overnight to thaw...and just feed them in the morning:)

We have noticed a great difference in our babies since switching to raw food

[Kipawa]

Have you considered a dehydrated raw food? For the last month or so I have been feeding him kibble and supplementing with some NRG Grainless Dehydrated food. It is extremely easy to prepare. You just add warm water to it and let it sit for 15 - 20 minutes. It fluffs up nicely. NRG is a Canadian brand, but I bet there are a variety of these types of foods in the U.S. I put the kibble and the NRG in their own bowls. Kipawa always goes for the NRG first. The bag cost me $30 Canadian, but it really is lasting long, so I think price-wise it is pretty much on track with the good quality kibbles.

[Bettawhippet]

So Henna do you feed a pre-prepared raw? What brand is it? if it costs you 60 a month for two b's then it should be no problem for me with my one.

Kipawa from what I have seen for the dehydrated our holistic pet food store only offers one brand and the grainless only comes in one variety, but perhaps they could order me some other kinds. I will look into it.

Thank you all for the information.

[curlytails]

I think dehydrated raw is significantly more expensive than doing it yourself, but it's certainly a good option for when you just don't have the time or energy to invest in calculating a nutritionally balanced diet.

Not sure what the cost of living is like in your region, but the cost of meat for me here can be a bit high. I seldom buy in bulk, though I would save about 20 ~ 40% of grocery store prices by doing so. My dogs don't tolerate beef very well, so that puts one of the more common sale-item meats out of the running. We do a lot of chicken, turkey, and whole fish (sardines, anchovies, pike mackerel, but few things much larger).

A pre-made brand of frozen raw that I like quite a bit is Primal. If we fed 100% Primal Raw, the Basenji would probably go through almost 3 of the 4-pound bags a month, with an occasional chicken wing or turkey neck or some other raw meaty bone instead (according to Primal's feeding calculator). I'd estimate that cost in food alone to be about $50 ~ $60 a month (depending on the formula you purchase).

As it is, my dogs get a LOT of variety in their diet, including kibble, grocery-store bought raw meat, pre-made raw formulas, dehydrated raw, some home-cooked recipes and supplements… I tracked my finances last year and found I was spending about $80/month for our two dogs (Basenji and Shiba, so comparable sizes) with this feeding regimen. I'm in school too, so I cut some corners for the sake of convenience (i.e. kibble). But once we all got used to feeding this way, it's been quite a pleasure.

I think carefully grinding up bones is okay, but then you would lose some of the dental benefits of feeding raw bones. You would know best how your dog chews. Neither of my dogs are hard "chompers," but they had to get adjusted to eating raw bones. My B is a fairly delicate chewer -- though when we first transitioned, she was so eager about eating raw meaty bones that I don't think she chewed thoroughly enough and consequently barfed up her undigested meal shortly afterward. Yuck. But now she takes to it just fine. She prefers poultry bones which overall are softer, and gives up quickly on bones that she finds too hard. At least she knows how to self-regulate.

[Bettawhippet]

Thanks, that's very helpful.

I really like the concept of offering lots of variety. I have already been switching between brands and varieties of kibble. It sounds like a model similar to yours might work well for me.

Kiora is not even slightly delicate. my fear is that she'll chomp the bone really hard once or twice then swallow it down. I suppose the best way to find out though is to try.

I've got quite a bit of kibble to get through but when we get a little closer to the end of the bag I'll go ahead and start offering the raw. I've also got a couple books coming that I want to get through before I start her on anything.

Can I ask how you transitioned your dogs from the kibble to the raw? I've heard varying accounts…some saying it should be very slow and others that recommend switching 100%.

BTW, your dogs are both beautiful.

[curlytails]

If you're worried about how Kiora chews, you could try starting her off with a drumstick or something and holding one end while she chomps and tears. Sounds gross, but I did do this when I started out, especially since both dogs did NOT want to touch their food and were a little confused about how to handle their RMB and refused to touch the raw meat! Heh…

To be honest, the dogs themselves determined the pace at which we switched over to raw. Bowdu the Shiba took to it immediately, so I think it only took a few days to move from kibble to raw. They say you shouldn't mix kibble and raw due to different digestion rates, but we still did so until it seemed pretty clear that his gut took to it just fine. Bowpi the Basenji was different, though. She actually turned her nose up at the pre-made raw, going so far as to pick out the kibble around the raw nuggets. But she seemed to know just what to do with her first chicken wing, even though I had to hold it for her. The poop didn't come out so nicely after the first time, so I supplemented with some canned pumpkin the next time, sprinkled some acidophilus on the next time... didn't try to give her raw meaty bones more than twice a week until her poops were consistently nice, no matter what she ate. It took probably a couple months before she got used to eating raw for about 30% of her meals, and now she eats raw/home-cooked/non-kibble for half of her meals, like Bowdu. It took a bit of experimentation, observation, plus some digestion aids.

In general, I don't mix raw and kibble, but I will mix dehydrated mixes with kibble. Oh, and I will "soak" the raw in a bag in very hot (not boiling) water for just a little bit so that it's not cold to the touch upon serving. Just a little extra step that honestly may not be necessary. I read that the meat may be more appealing to dogs if it seems to be at a "life-like" temperature, which sounds kind of absurd to me... but this was actually true for Bowpi! There are similar principles in Chinese medicine, so I guess I felt it didn't hurt... just don't want the raw meat to sit around in open air growing bacteria, of course.

Anyway, I'm definitely not an expert. I haven't been feeding raw or this variety for very long, but I'm learning a lot and will never go back to just kibble. Your books will probably tell you a lot more, though I think there's a lot to be gained from others' experiences since each dog seems to take to raw feeding just a little bit differently.

p.s. I went back and read your "reintroduction" thread to reacquaint myself with your dogs. I'm sorry to hear about your beautiful Ananda... and I totally understand that motivation to "do better" by our dogs. Bowdu ate Science Diet for the first three years of his life, and who knows what Bowpi ate but since she came to me with a bag of Kibbles 'n' Bits, I don't think it was anything that good either. We do what we can to give our dogs a good, full life, and diet is surely one aspect, but ultimately it's just one of many ways we show our love, you know?

[Bettawhippet]

Thank you. Losing Ananda was devastating. She went from seemingly perfect health to no longer being able to even stand in the course of a week. It was and is shocking and one way I am coping is by focusing on Kiora. This is not really the the thread to talk about it but if you'd like I will send you a pm.

I think that Kiora will absolutely love eating raw. Pretty much the only thing she turns her nose up at are vegetables. I will keep a close eye on her stools though. I got one of my books in the mail today which is: Natural Nutrition For Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schultze.

I will let everyone know how she is doing one I start offering it to her. Thanks again for the great advice!

[lec]

We switched our 2 boys to raw from kibble about 6 months ago. The switch came because we were simply exhausted from walking them 3 times a day because they had loose stool (we don't have fenced in yard, so we need to walk them to go to the bathroom). Our vet recommended more fiber in their diet to help with loose stool. This intuitively just didn't resonate with us. Basenji are one of the most ancient breeds of dog… why on earth would more fiber be a solution to their problem (I know the theoretical why, but logically it was counter-intuitive)? We read many sources or literature on the raw diet and thought this would be a good switch for them. Again, they are an ancient breed so moving toward raw foods seemed appropriate and logical. It took that about a month for them to get really accustomed to eating raw chicken quarters, rabbit halves or pork shoulders but now they have no problem gulping their meal right down, bone and all (for those of you who don't feed raw, gulping is a normal behavior and bone is an essential part of the diet). Their digestion issues have vanished and we've even seen marked improvement in their destructive behavior. Two super happy boys now, two super happy Basenji owners!!