I agree with Lisa… while your list can be helpful, puppymillers have learned to look very reputable making it much harder to look at the website to determine. The bottom line is, no matter if they sell one breed or more, they can be a puppymill. And there are certainly some very legit responsible breeders with 2 or even 4 breeds! My entry into dog breeding/showing was a woman who had English bulldogs, her daughter had aghans and setters. If they don't have pedigrees and health testing info on the web page, I'd run. If they have it and you check OFA and find they falsified, or only maybe the current or some of their dogs have testing.. run. The rest they can fake or pretend but generations of health clearances generally aren't part of a puppymill.
Does this breeder sound reputable?
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Not sure who you think here is "bashing" rescue? We are just pointing out that a rescue is not the best choice for all people. And even if you look at BRAT, how many of those dogs say "no children under the age of…."....
Rescues as we all know come with a different set of baggage then a puppy... and many times because of the situation they were in there are circumstances that the best of fosters will never be able to work through...Not bashing rescue dogs? Really, what thread were you on? Review below.
Actually, you took one statement about rescues being at higher risk of health issues than dogs with well tested and carefully bred parents to be rescue bashing and then turned this thread into your chance to breeder bash. I think that demonstrates an issue with breeders.
I still believe that temperament and behavior are the primary concerns when adding a new dog and they are the primary reason most families opt for a puppy over a rescue because rescue dogs do not have the socialization to the hectic daily routines of most families. It has been pointed out time and again that far more adult dogs list "not good with children" then list "good with children" so absolutely TEMPERAMENT and BEHAVIOR are important in choosing a puppy over rescue.
And continuing to say my issue is BREEDERS is dishonest. No beef with responsible breeders. My only complaint is anyone, breeder or not, bashing rescues. Although I DO have a new beef, it is twisting my words and continuing to repeat something I clarified… such as that temperament doesn't matter. OF COURSE IT DOES. But a temperament tested, fostered, socialized dog who has been deemed good with kids IS just as safe as your puppies. AND, once again (typing slow so maybe you all stop repeating it over and over).. I didn't CLAIM ALL RESCUES GOOD WITH CHILDREN. For crying out loud, how many times do I have to say it.
And there are benefits from the health perspective to temperment of the dog that you know about.
The initial adoption fee for a rescue may be a little bit less than a responsibly bred dog but the risk for health issues may prove higher, and far more expensive, in the long run.
Okay so rescues AND homes without children living in them can't prepare a dog to live with kids:
@khanis:For others, it just will NOT work.
I have kids, so I know that is imperative to many families getting a pup… my pups are kid-proofed more than any puppy could possibly be that does NOT have children living under the roof. If they hit 8 wks in my house.. they are literally bomb-proof to all noises and kinds of people. You don't generally find that in rescue.Actually most rescues ARE fine, or they don't make it into rescue… unstable dogs should always be put down. Nor is the modern family an issue. Unruly abusive children would be, they would be for ANY dog.
@lvoss:It can be very difficult for families to find adult dogs that have been well socialized to the chaos of the modern family and of the temperament to take it all in stride. That doesn't mean that there are not adult dogs that will fit the bill but they are definately not the most commonly seen in the surrendered dog population.
Just a few things, there are quite a few rescues that clearly state, on almost all of their adoptions, 'better off in a home with children over 12, etc'. So what is that saying? Obviously, a lot of these dogs are felt to be not good with children-and that is put out by your evaluators/fosters. So how can it be said that rescues are well socialized with children and are able to be placed with children? I'm not saying all rescues dogs are like this, but a reality is most are because most of these dogs have little socialization with adults, never mind children.
Most of the rescues that are dealt with do come with issues irregardless of what you say. Whether they are mental or physical. It is a crap shoot in the long run with any dog. I agree with that as to the physical well being, no one, NO ONE, can determine long term what can happen to anyone or anything physically or mentally.
Secondly, no matter how stellar a rescue volunteer is at training and rehabilitating, lack of good socialization during critical development periods can never really be fully substituted.
I think rescues are a great option for some people but they come with huge question marks that make then a less suitable option for some households and no matter what you say, HEALTH and TEMPERAMENT are some of those huge question marks.
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MY dogs, as most well-bred dogs, have temperaments beyond comparison to any rescue. Sure, some rescues are one in a million… but that isn't the norm.
Actually, it really is. Most dogs in rescues and shelters are there due to stupid or irresponsible owners, not temperament. Lets get real okay? Responsible breeders make up .. I forget the AKC stats… quite a bit less than 20 percent show their dogs in any venue, never mind percent who do their breed's recommended genetic and health testing. That's only akc. Yet most dogs are perfectly fine temperaments. Exceptions? Sure, guardian breed dogs and others. But generally, nope. Which is why there aren't hundreds of people dead every year from those poorly breed insane dogs you imagine are out there. MOST dogs have fine temperaments... maybe not for every home, but certainly okay. Most dog issues are not the dog's temperament but the owner's issues.
FEW RESCUE DOGS, IF ANY, CAN BE CONSIDERED BOMB PROOF.
I do not care who has evaluated it, spent time with it, and TT it.
The vast majority of dogs in rescue to not have a history that rescue knows 100% about.Heads up. Unlike a human sitting in psychoanalysis, you don't need much history. Live with a dog for 3 to 6 mos and if you aren't able to evaluate the temperament and bomb proof it as much as any other dog, you need some help. Doesn't mean every dog for every home, but then, neither are Basenjis right for even MOST homes.
The vast majority of people that turn dogs into rescue tell the truth. They are ready to be done with the dog, and if it takes making up crap to shove the dog off on others, it is done.
Don't even waste your breath to try and refute this… I have seen it way too much.I think you meant DON'T tell the truth. And we agree. Again, so what? You spend time with the dog, you'll get all the info you need.
And a rescue is almost always as good of a choice as a well-bred puppy?
You obviously believe this to be true… but it is merely an unsubstantiated opinion that all I can really do is laugh at someone that believes it.Typing slow again. Puppies are hard for most people to raise right. If they have the ability to raise a puppy right, they could also live with a rescue. So yeah, it's laughable you want to argue a rescue won't do just as well unless they want to show or breed. Genetic diseases aside… which I grant and have said.
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The majority of my rescues have never been around children since they have lived in crates 24/7. Since I do not have children, they are not exposed to children in a household. They might meet children at events, etc. but that is not the same as living with children who might pull their tail, carry food around at their height, etc.
Jennifer
Then you would be wise to never place in homes with children… or do you mean dogs you have adopted? Not sure if you mean you rescue to place or your own adopted dogs. If you rescue to place, here is a thought.. should anyone do rescue if they are not able to find kids to expose them TO? Because most homes have kids visit... family, neighbors, whatever. I consider exposing to children to be critical. It really is important to know how a dog is. What if one of those rescues has issues with children and is a danger?
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Debra,
Do you have any idea how much rescue Jennifer does for the Basenji breed??
I gather you don't by the rude comments you are making.
Jennifer is an ANGEL and does more than many folks combined when it comes to rescue. Bless her for being there for so many of these dogs.THIS THREAD NEEDS TO BE CLOSED.
You are a rude individual to folks that you do not know in any way.
We can all suffice to say that you would argue til the cows came home…
the fact is, you are bashing those of us on here that are good breeders AND we do rescue.
Get past yourself and realize you are preaching to the wrong choir. -
I agree this topic needs to be closed.
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Well before we close it can I pipe in? Thanks.
Of course rescue dogs are in competition with reputable breeders for finding good homes, and vice versa. As are BYB and puppymills. What differentiates us from each other is our intent. Personally I find very little fault in what Debra has had to say. Breeders do perpetuate the myth their dogs are better than rescue dogs to some degree, and again - vice versa. We are all biased about what we are doing and we all think we have the best thing going. I admit it - I think what I do rocks and is better than many if not all others which is why I continue to do as I do! But - I am always open to improvement.
I am not concerned so much by the number of adults a breeder has. Well socialized adults have very little need for excessive training, just brief periods of refresher courses throughout the week is enough to keep them in tip top temperament shape. What concerns me is multiple litters that a number of "reputable" breeders (and I say that word lightly) have on the ground at any one time. I know the time and effort and commitment that goes into properly socializing and exposing puppies - which means getting them out of the house, as a group and individually numerous times. With multiple litters - something has to give and it will usually be the early socializing/exposure excursions 'cuz they just don't have the time. My recent litter of 4 pups took a tremendous amount of my time and I still did not do all that I had wanted.
That said - nothing is full proof. I have seen dogs with the best start in life be ruined by owners to become schitzo adults. I have also seen pound pups, with the worst start in life, step up and make the grade. As for children - I personally do not feel this breed is good with children in the traditional sense. Not because there is anything wrong with the breed's temperament - its more due to the fact that many kids I see today are spoiled rotten, have no boundaries with very little respect or regard for anything. Sure - a total generalization but its my reality. IMO, our breed does not do well with any human (child or adult) that does not have a sense of respect for it and act accordingly. Does not mean my guys are not well bred or well socialized.
And speaking as a person who sees multiple rescues of every shape and size, every day at work where most of our patient base are petstore rejects or pound pups - I agree it is stupid people that create stupid, schitzo dogs - it is the rare individual animal that has a true genetic temperament template which can not be eradicated in the right enviro and a lot of dedication.
As for health. Excluding fanconi - as that is a recent test therefore I would expect well bred dogs to be over represented in testings - having test results does not guarantee breeders anything. Yes, testing does help breeders to determine odds of a health problem cropping up but it does not exclude breeders from having said problems or other problems not on the breeds radar screen. I know breeders with Idiopathic immune disorders on this list - myself included - that no amount of health testing would have alerted us to. Heck - health testing has only really become a mainstay within the breed in the last 10-15 years. It was the norm NOT to test. Which means most well bred dogs were NO better than the unknown rescues with regards to knowledge - in other words - it was all a crap shoot. Add to that breeders unwilling to talk about or even acknowledge they had any problems and you have no more info than if you took home a dog picked up off the street - except what the breeder may or may not tell you. Has it gotten better - heck yes. But we still have breeders with their head in the sand, to the point they still will not test for fanconi!
The crux of the problem, IMO, is something Pat mentions - not every person wants a rescue. There is something alluring about a puppy; it's a clean slate, has little to no baggage, is believed (wrongly of course) to be "easier" to take care of. So in that regard Pat is right - rescue is not for everyone. When folks come to me re: a basenji puppy and I do not have pups on the ground or a litter planned I will always remind them of rescue dogs as well as give them names of other breeders who might have litters or older dogs needing placement and leave the choice to them. But if I have available pups on the ground or a litter planned and they are asking for a pup, I admit I am not thinking about sending them to rescue. I am thinking about vetting them to see if they would be a good prospect for one of my pups. If they are, I admit I will keep them for myself if I can. By no means am I bashing rescue - to be honest - rescue probably has not even come up in the conversation.
As an aside - this reader did not take Debra's post to Jennifer as a criticsm - especially since she has implied she is not 100% certain she understands what Jennifer means by rescue (dogs she plans to place or dogs she herself has rescued/adopted). Her question re: whether or not someone should do rescue (for eventual placement) if they have no plans to somehow expose said rescue to children is a valid question. I personally never thought of it but can see how it could be an important point in a future potential placement.
Now then - feel free to close the subject since this reader feels ya'll are so set to "right fight" you lost the bigger picture about 2 pages ago. That being - in the end it is all about the dogs and giving them the best start, or second start possible, and getting them into one home for the rest of their lives.
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Linda, well said.
I always try to keep my eye on what is best for the b.
It makes things a lot clearer when I think that way. -
WOW!
MY dogs, as most well-bred dogs, have temperaments beyond comparison to any rescue. Sure, some rescues are one in a million… but that isn't the norm.
FEW RESCUE DOGS, IF ANY, CAN BE CONSIDERED BOMB PROOF.
I do not care who has evaluated it, spent time with it, and TT it.
The vast majority of dogs in rescue to not have a history that rescue knows 100% about.
The vast majority of people that turn dogs into rescue tell the truth. They are ready to be done with the dog, and if it takes making up crap to shove the dog off on others, it is done.
Don't even waste your breath to try and refute this... I have seen it way too much.My reply:
I apparently haven't figured out how to do quotes yet, sorry.
I'm not going to waste much breath refuting your opinion of a rescue basenji, but I could offer you hundreds of testimonies from satisfied adopters who have become the forever homes for the dog of their dreams.
Apart from that, can we just put this issue to bed?
Debbi J.
who lives and breathes rescue -
I gather you don't by the rude comments you are making.
You are a rude individual to folks that you do not know in any way.
the fact is, you are bashing those of us on here that are good breeders AND we do rescue.
Get past yourself and realize you are preaching to the wrong choir.1. About as RUDE as the comments to me. Put on your big girl panties… when you twist what I say, continue to twist, refuse to accept explanations, then don't expect happy responses.
2. I was not rude to her at all. Please quote what was rude. I suggested that all rescuers, ALL, should socialize dogs with children or at minimum seriously evaluate with them. I believe that completely. That isn't rude or insulting anyone.
3. Please quote me where I bashed BREEDERS. I bashed comments about temperaments and general health. Period.
4. Get over yourself? What are you, 10?
And for the record, I am and SAID before... I am (or was) a breeder... Rottweilers. Pretty silly to accuse me of being anti-breeder. But please, show me where I bash responsible breeders. I'll apologize.
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Wow! You asked where you bashed breeders? Where did anyone bash rescuers either? Show me. And I think I did say something about the rescuers putting something in about dogs that have a byline - no children under 12- again, I was ignored and you talk about others putting words into your mouth. Maybe you should re-read your replies to the people. I didn't say ALL. I said the majority of them. And the evaluators are not perfect either, no one is.
Not one person here bashed rescuers-only in your head. All breeders know that without rescuers, it would be a happier world. But, you talk about having to deal with people that come to you from responsible breeders, do you ask them if they've gone to the breeder first? Or do you just take it at face value? Do you research if they have actually gone to the breeder? Do you call the breeder to find out if they will take the dog back? Or do you just say "screw it" and put the dog in a foster home without letting the breeder know?
You are a piece of work lady! Talk about saying to others 'What are you 10?' Look in the mirror honey. BACK AT YOU. I'm done with you. Don't talk or message me. You are a narrow minded individual who has an issue that you won't let go. Breeders. I don't care that you say you don't have an issue and that you were a Rotti breeder. By the very way you have talked to the people on this forum-YOU DO.
Rescuers are mostly great people. I wouldn't want to deal with you and I certainly wouldn't want one of my dogs falling into your hands. Because, you probably wouldn't let me know about it and then I would fall into your 'irresponsible' breeder category. Mistakes happen-how about you get over yourself and leave the breeders on here alone. You have taken one small issue and made it your personal vendetta.
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Sorry, again an additional 700 to BUY the dog on top of the care IS a lot for most people. Period.
Nor did anyone bash breeders or getting from breeders. It was breeders bashing rescue dogs or inferring (or out and out claiming) not healthy or risky temperament. From breeders who if they know ANYTHING know that temperament testing is as valid on a rescue as their own pups (well unless they suck at temperament testing)…and is VERY reliable on older pups and adults. Now I am done on this topic. I left here crying yesterday because I couldn't believe people I thought were knowledgeable and cared about the breed were pushing breeder dogs and putting down rescues. So I have my big girl panties on and my rose colored glasses removed. 'nuff said.
Give me a break. No one was bashing rescue! It is a fact that responsible breeders are using the Fanconi marker test to AVOID breeding dogs with Fanconi. It is a fact that BRAT is not using the marker test prior to placing dogs (for GOOD reasons)…so therefore you DO stand a risk of adopting a dog that will have Fanconi by not purchasing from a responsible breeder. And dogs that have been placed into rescue often have developed bad habits because their prior owners have not invested enough time and/or learning into training their dogs before giving them up to rescue....nothing to do with temperament...but a lot to do with the mindset of the original owner. That doesn't mean there aren't perfect homes available for these dogs...but they won't be perfect for everyone. There is a place for responsibly bred puppies, and rescue dogs...but we won't do anybody any good if people try to create a wall where there isn't one.
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I already quoted the bashing.
And Arlene, I am sorry you are unable to discuss a TOPIC without making personal attacks. Since I have never talked to or messaged you, I don't think you have to worry. When people become abusive as your post was, it says all I need to know about them.
Nor did I say (there you go inventing) that RESCUERS were attacked, I said rescue dogs. And yes, I repeatedly addressed the no kids topic. You may want to reread.
But I doubt anyone actually READING this thread is side-tracked by your rant. The continued accusations that I attacked or have issues with RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS doesn't hold, so instead of admitting you can find nothing to quote other than my bash of BASHING RESCUES, you launch a personal attack. Tut tut.
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Give me a break. No one was bashing rescue!
There is a place for responsibly bred puppies, and rescue dogs…but we won't do anybody any good if people try to create a wall where there isn't one.Andrea, I quoted the comments, so please don't tell me that people were not putting down getting rescues. For the rest, I agree… and in fact said, repeatedly, responsibly bred dogs do have genetic testing behind them. For people to keep saying that rescue wasn't being bashed when the quotes are there makes no sense. Nor is this breeders verses rescuERS, it is about people who bash rescue dogs.
I am not trying to create a wall, but I won't let stand unanswered assertions that rescues are generally more unhealthy than breeder dogs nor that the temperament of rescues is worse than breeder dogs nor that there aren't plenty of good rescues for families with children. Note, NOT ALL RESCUES (or breeder's dogs) are good for children. Please don't twist my words to say that. And please don't continue to make this as Debra-hates-breeders. That is hogwash. I love responsible breeders as much as I hate puppy mills and irresponsible breeders. I KNOW the work and love and sweat that goes into being a good breeder. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BREEDERS. It has to do with breeders or ANYONE who puts down rescues.
And when I get snippy in response to the continued twisting of my words, I apologize anywhere it even SOUNDS like I might mean breeders. But again, I am asking before you slam me again... quote me where I bashed BREEDERS. Otherwise, well, we all know what it means.
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I don't know about all areas of the country but at least in this area, the responsible breeders don't have 10, 20, 30 dogs, they have maybe 5-6 dogs and they are house dogs and well socialized,
For the record, …
http://www.khanisbasenjis.com/ourdogs.htm
8 dogs listed as in residence… 3 litters due this fall. Means could easily be 20 if ave 4 a litter... counting pups.So while I am sure MOST have 5 or 6, not all do. I just wanted to point out that while 30 was over the top, it wasn't massively over the top.
But the whole comment was about socialization, etc. And I should have left numbers out and just said socialization with a few dogs can be done incredibly well in a rescue with more time available in 24 hours per animal than someone juggling adults and an entire litter, or 2, or 3.
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This was the start of it certainly. Just because you believe we, as responsible breeders on this forum, do or don't charge that amount, your inference was that we were irresponsible. How many times on this forum have we said we lose money? It isn't about the money for a lot of us, but about the breed.
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So if you aren't saying we are bashing the rescues as responsible breeders, and you aren't talking to anyone off the forum, you are posting here, again your inference is back to the breeders on this forum.
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And you're saying you're not bashing the breeders on this forum??? Sorry, when you bash one you bash us all-at least that's the way I feel.
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And again, your words. You are the one who generalized against all the breeders. If you didn't want a generalization you should have been more specific. What? And we don't place depending on the dog and family as well?
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And that wasn't a nasty thing to say? How do you know someone's personal lifestyle to make that statement?
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That was also not playing nice. And you're calling the rest of us rude? What are you trying to do? Play one against the other?
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Again, are you so perfect this has never happened to you? Kids are kids and dogs are dogs and it can happen to anyone. If you trust a dog, IMO, comletely, you are an idiot. Period. A dog is still a wild animal and behaves accordingly.
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I still don't see where anyone bashed rescues! Why do you insist on bringing this up time and again?
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Again, you can't see outside your little box that no one here bashed rescues or rescue dogs. You are the one that keeps bringing it up.
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Check out some of the people that didn't get a dog that was responsibly bred. You'll begin to see the differences.
<< I don't lump you with the rescue bashers any more than I lump responsible breeders with puppymills or byb. My only issue is bashing rescue>>
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So what is it?? Rescuers, rescues, or rescue dogs.
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You're right, you don't have issues with responsible breeders, just all breeders! And I thought you didn't bash anything?
I will repeat and repeat and repeat. You are calling the people on here rude, you attack people personally, who are my friends, and then you try to state that I shouldn't say anything. Sorry, not in my field. Leave the people on here alone. Go back to your little narrow world where you are the best and only perfect soul in existence and you cannot see outside of it. I really don't like your outlook at all. I pity you living in your perfect world. You are not a saint either.
NUFF SAID.__ -
Arlene, the poster will just say you can't read because obviously when we say that health of rescue is a question mark that is rescue bashing even though it is true. As Andrea very accurately summarized, responsible breeders do Fanconi testing before a breeding, they make sure their puppies Fanconi status is known prior to placement. BRAT does NOT do Fanconi marker testing because it will negatively impact the rescue's likelihood of being adopted so for at least that one health issue when you adopt a rescue that will be a question mark.
If we say temperament can be a question mark that is also bashing. Having spent many hours at my shelter working with temperament tested dogs, I can say that we still run into surprises. A temperament test cannot test for every situation. It tests for the ones that are most likely going to be triggers but you can still run into surprises when you are actually working with a dog or when an adopter brings the dog home. And Andrea made a good point, it isn't always temperament but behavior. We see lots of adolescent dogs that have been reinforced for lots of bad behaviors like jumping up, nipping, etc. Those are bad behaviors but often they are combined with energetic, playful temperaments that make those behaviors highly likely.
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Very True Lisa. But I am done with her. Nasty. Too bad.
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<<_I doubt many responsible breeders can begin to place a pup for much under $2,000. Certainly not under $1,000.>>
This was the start of it certainly. Just because you believe we, as responsible breeders on this forum, do or don't charge that amount, your inference was that we were irresponsible. _<<<
That wasn't the start, it wasn't. And the cost of a breeder pup wasn't the topic about bashing. Please quit trying to make it so. But you actually TWISTED my intent, which was that I didn't see how a breeder can begin to sell for less BECAUSE I know the expenses incurred. I wasn't saying make a profit, I was thinking prevent financial ruin. So the ASSUmption I meant it about profit... sorry, not from me.
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And again, your words. You are the one who generalized against all the breeders. If you didn't want a generalization you should have been more specific. What? And we don't place depending on the dog and family as well? <<<<
Since I addressed this several times, not going to again, but no it was NOT generalizing about all breeders, it was comparing the ability to socialize... which was put down about rescues... saying... oh wait. I explained it already so wasting breath.
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Again, are you so perfect this has never happened to you? Kids are kids and dogs are dogs and it can happen to anyone. If you trust a dog, IMO, comletely, you are an idiot. Period. A dog is still a wild animal and behaves accordingly. _
Wow, again twisting. My point was.. typing slow... no matter what you do, if the home is wrong it can be undone. That can happen to anyone. It wasn't breeder bashing and you know it.
_So what is it?? Rescuers, rescues, or rescue dogs. _
Rescue dogs, but since that was the discussion each and every post except when someone said I said people were bashing rescuERS.
_You're right, you don't have issues with responsible breeders, just all breeders! And I thought you didn't bash anything? _
OMG, insane, that comment really is.
Not even going through the rest because you said you were done, yet continue with personal attacks and in next post call me nasty. I have not personally attacked anyone, you have. Look in the mirror for rude, nasty etc. Check into anger management even. And no, dear, you can't order me off here. You can't order me to not respond to you ...heck you obviously couldn't even order yourself to stop cause you keep on. You attack me, I'll respond. Perhaps bullying and name calling and personal attacks works for you elsewhere, but you rather picked the wrong person. I can respect debating a topic even when disagreeing, but when someone makes the clearly harassing attacking posts you do, their comments deserve no respect. But perhaps you need the last word so I'll give it to you, done.
I do want to state one last time.. nothing I wrote was ever intended as responsible breeder bash, but defense of rescue. That it has been beaten to death has long since passed any level of productive discussion. For my part, done. But I hope most breeders realize the accusations that I am against breeders is nonsense. Responsible breeders are the light against the dark in all breeds, not just this one, and the only ones who should ever produce a puppy. -
Wow, again twisting. My point was.. typing slow… no matter what you do, if the home is wrong it can be undone. That can happen to anyone. It wasn't breeder bashing and you know it.
I totally disagree with this comment…. And I know many a Basenji that was in the wrong home and the damage was never able to be "undone"
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Pat, I apologize you misunderstood. I guess because I said it so many times and it was PERFECTLY clear in what I wrote before that she quoted:
And the next truth is that no matter what YOU do, you place a puppy in an idiot's home where a child hurts the dog, your bombproofing for kids goes down the drain.
I didn't explain fully this one. I meant no matter what you do, it you put a dog in the wrong home, whatever good YOU DID can be undone.
