I agree with Lisa… while your list can be helpful, puppymillers have learned to look very reputable making it much harder to look at the website to determine. The bottom line is, no matter if they sell one breed or more, they can be a puppymill. And there are certainly some very legit responsible breeders with 2 or even 4 breeds! My entry into dog breeding/showing was a woman who had English bulldogs, her daughter had aghans and setters. If they don't have pedigrees and health testing info on the web page, I'd run. If they have it and you check OFA and find they falsified, or only maybe the current or some of their dogs have testing.. run. The rest they can fake or pretend but generations of health clearances generally aren't part of a puppymill.
Does this breeder sound reputable?
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Sorry, again an additional 700 to BUY the dog on top of the care IS a lot for most people. Period.
Nor did anyone bash breeders or getting from breeders. It was breeders bashing rescue dogs or inferring (or out and out claiming) not healthy or risky temperament. From breeders who if they know ANYTHING know that temperament testing is as valid on a rescue as their own pups (well unless they suck at temperament testing)…and is VERY reliable on older pups and adults. Now I am done on this topic. I left here crying yesterday because I couldn't believe people I thought were knowledgeable and cared about the breed were pushing breeder dogs and putting down rescues. So I have my big girl panties on and my rose colored glasses removed. 'nuff said.
Give me a break. No one was bashing rescue! It is a fact that responsible breeders are using the Fanconi marker test to AVOID breeding dogs with Fanconi. It is a fact that BRAT is not using the marker test prior to placing dogs (for GOOD reasons)…so therefore you DO stand a risk of adopting a dog that will have Fanconi by not purchasing from a responsible breeder. And dogs that have been placed into rescue often have developed bad habits because their prior owners have not invested enough time and/or learning into training their dogs before giving them up to rescue....nothing to do with temperament...but a lot to do with the mindset of the original owner. That doesn't mean there aren't perfect homes available for these dogs...but they won't be perfect for everyone. There is a place for responsibly bred puppies, and rescue dogs...but we won't do anybody any good if people try to create a wall where there isn't one.
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I already quoted the bashing.
And Arlene, I am sorry you are unable to discuss a TOPIC without making personal attacks. Since I have never talked to or messaged you, I don't think you have to worry. When people become abusive as your post was, it says all I need to know about them.
Nor did I say (there you go inventing) that RESCUERS were attacked, I said rescue dogs. And yes, I repeatedly addressed the no kids topic. You may want to reread.
But I doubt anyone actually READING this thread is side-tracked by your rant. The continued accusations that I attacked or have issues with RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS doesn't hold, so instead of admitting you can find nothing to quote other than my bash of BASHING RESCUES, you launch a personal attack. Tut tut.
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Give me a break. No one was bashing rescue!
There is a place for responsibly bred puppies, and rescue dogs…but we won't do anybody any good if people try to create a wall where there isn't one.Andrea, I quoted the comments, so please don't tell me that people were not putting down getting rescues. For the rest, I agree… and in fact said, repeatedly, responsibly bred dogs do have genetic testing behind them. For people to keep saying that rescue wasn't being bashed when the quotes are there makes no sense. Nor is this breeders verses rescuERS, it is about people who bash rescue dogs.
I am not trying to create a wall, but I won't let stand unanswered assertions that rescues are generally more unhealthy than breeder dogs nor that the temperament of rescues is worse than breeder dogs nor that there aren't plenty of good rescues for families with children. Note, NOT ALL RESCUES (or breeder's dogs) are good for children. Please don't twist my words to say that. And please don't continue to make this as Debra-hates-breeders. That is hogwash. I love responsible breeders as much as I hate puppy mills and irresponsible breeders. I KNOW the work and love and sweat that goes into being a good breeder. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BREEDERS. It has to do with breeders or ANYONE who puts down rescues.
And when I get snippy in response to the continued twisting of my words, I apologize anywhere it even SOUNDS like I might mean breeders. But again, I am asking before you slam me again... quote me where I bashed BREEDERS. Otherwise, well, we all know what it means.
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I don't know about all areas of the country but at least in this area, the responsible breeders don't have 10, 20, 30 dogs, they have maybe 5-6 dogs and they are house dogs and well socialized,
For the record, …
http://www.khanisbasenjis.com/ourdogs.htm
8 dogs listed as in residence… 3 litters due this fall. Means could easily be 20 if ave 4 a litter... counting pups.So while I am sure MOST have 5 or 6, not all do. I just wanted to point out that while 30 was over the top, it wasn't massively over the top.
But the whole comment was about socialization, etc. And I should have left numbers out and just said socialization with a few dogs can be done incredibly well in a rescue with more time available in 24 hours per animal than someone juggling adults and an entire litter, or 2, or 3.
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This was the start of it certainly. Just because you believe we, as responsible breeders on this forum, do or don't charge that amount, your inference was that we were irresponsible. How many times on this forum have we said we lose money? It isn't about the money for a lot of us, but about the breed.
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So if you aren't saying we are bashing the rescues as responsible breeders, and you aren't talking to anyone off the forum, you are posting here, again your inference is back to the breeders on this forum.
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And you're saying you're not bashing the breeders on this forum??? Sorry, when you bash one you bash us all-at least that's the way I feel.
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And again, your words. You are the one who generalized against all the breeders. If you didn't want a generalization you should have been more specific. What? And we don't place depending on the dog and family as well?
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And that wasn't a nasty thing to say? How do you know someone's personal lifestyle to make that statement?
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That was also not playing nice. And you're calling the rest of us rude? What are you trying to do? Play one against the other?
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Again, are you so perfect this has never happened to you? Kids are kids and dogs are dogs and it can happen to anyone. If you trust a dog, IMO, comletely, you are an idiot. Period. A dog is still a wild animal and behaves accordingly.
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I still don't see where anyone bashed rescues! Why do you insist on bringing this up time and again?
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Again, you can't see outside your little box that no one here bashed rescues or rescue dogs. You are the one that keeps bringing it up.
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Check out some of the people that didn't get a dog that was responsibly bred. You'll begin to see the differences.
<< I don't lump you with the rescue bashers any more than I lump responsible breeders with puppymills or byb. My only issue is bashing rescue>>
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So what is it?? Rescuers, rescues, or rescue dogs.
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You're right, you don't have issues with responsible breeders, just all breeders! And I thought you didn't bash anything?
I will repeat and repeat and repeat. You are calling the people on here rude, you attack people personally, who are my friends, and then you try to state that I shouldn't say anything. Sorry, not in my field. Leave the people on here alone. Go back to your little narrow world where you are the best and only perfect soul in existence and you cannot see outside of it. I really don't like your outlook at all. I pity you living in your perfect world. You are not a saint either.
NUFF SAID.__ -
Arlene, the poster will just say you can't read because obviously when we say that health of rescue is a question mark that is rescue bashing even though it is true. As Andrea very accurately summarized, responsible breeders do Fanconi testing before a breeding, they make sure their puppies Fanconi status is known prior to placement. BRAT does NOT do Fanconi marker testing because it will negatively impact the rescue's likelihood of being adopted so for at least that one health issue when you adopt a rescue that will be a question mark.
If we say temperament can be a question mark that is also bashing. Having spent many hours at my shelter working with temperament tested dogs, I can say that we still run into surprises. A temperament test cannot test for every situation. It tests for the ones that are most likely going to be triggers but you can still run into surprises when you are actually working with a dog or when an adopter brings the dog home. And Andrea made a good point, it isn't always temperament but behavior. We see lots of adolescent dogs that have been reinforced for lots of bad behaviors like jumping up, nipping, etc. Those are bad behaviors but often they are combined with energetic, playful temperaments that make those behaviors highly likely.
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Very True Lisa. But I am done with her. Nasty. Too bad.
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<<_I doubt many responsible breeders can begin to place a pup for much under $2,000. Certainly not under $1,000.>>
This was the start of it certainly. Just because you believe we, as responsible breeders on this forum, do or don't charge that amount, your inference was that we were irresponsible. _<<<
That wasn't the start, it wasn't. And the cost of a breeder pup wasn't the topic about bashing. Please quit trying to make it so. But you actually TWISTED my intent, which was that I didn't see how a breeder can begin to sell for less BECAUSE I know the expenses incurred. I wasn't saying make a profit, I was thinking prevent financial ruin. So the ASSUmption I meant it about profit... sorry, not from me.
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And again, your words. You are the one who generalized against all the breeders. If you didn't want a generalization you should have been more specific. What? And we don't place depending on the dog and family as well? <<<<
Since I addressed this several times, not going to again, but no it was NOT generalizing about all breeders, it was comparing the ability to socialize... which was put down about rescues... saying... oh wait. I explained it already so wasting breath.
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Again, are you so perfect this has never happened to you? Kids are kids and dogs are dogs and it can happen to anyone. If you trust a dog, IMO, comletely, you are an idiot. Period. A dog is still a wild animal and behaves accordingly. _
Wow, again twisting. My point was.. typing slow... no matter what you do, if the home is wrong it can be undone. That can happen to anyone. It wasn't breeder bashing and you know it.
_So what is it?? Rescuers, rescues, or rescue dogs. _
Rescue dogs, but since that was the discussion each and every post except when someone said I said people were bashing rescuERS.
_You're right, you don't have issues with responsible breeders, just all breeders! And I thought you didn't bash anything? _
OMG, insane, that comment really is.
Not even going through the rest because you said you were done, yet continue with personal attacks and in next post call me nasty. I have not personally attacked anyone, you have. Look in the mirror for rude, nasty etc. Check into anger management even. And no, dear, you can't order me off here. You can't order me to not respond to you ...heck you obviously couldn't even order yourself to stop cause you keep on. You attack me, I'll respond. Perhaps bullying and name calling and personal attacks works for you elsewhere, but you rather picked the wrong person. I can respect debating a topic even when disagreeing, but when someone makes the clearly harassing attacking posts you do, their comments deserve no respect. But perhaps you need the last word so I'll give it to you, done.
I do want to state one last time.. nothing I wrote was ever intended as responsible breeder bash, but defense of rescue. That it has been beaten to death has long since passed any level of productive discussion. For my part, done. But I hope most breeders realize the accusations that I am against breeders is nonsense. Responsible breeders are the light against the dark in all breeds, not just this one, and the only ones who should ever produce a puppy. -
Wow, again twisting. My point was.. typing slow… no matter what you do, if the home is wrong it can be undone. That can happen to anyone. It wasn't breeder bashing and you know it.
I totally disagree with this comment…. And I know many a Basenji that was in the wrong home and the damage was never able to be "undone"
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Pat, I apologize you misunderstood. I guess because I said it so many times and it was PERFECTLY clear in what I wrote before that she quoted:
And the next truth is that no matter what YOU do, you place a puppy in an idiot's home where a child hurts the dog, your bombproofing for kids goes down the drain.
I didn't explain fully this one. I meant no matter what you do, it you put a dog in the wrong home, whatever good YOU DID can be undone.
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BRAT does NOT do Fanconi marker testing because it will negatively impact the rescue's likelihood of being adopted so for at least that one health issue when you adopt a rescue that will be a question mark.
For the record, BRAT does not do Fanconi marker testing because we can not afford it. If we tested each basenji that came into rescue each year, it would cost over $30,000 per year. Our adoption fees do not begin to cover our direct vetting expenses as it is. This is the primary reason BRAT does not test. In addition, the test is not 100% accurate.
debbi j.
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That is not what has been said in the past. Cost is one factor but the negative impact on the adoptability has always been listed as a major factor.
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That is not what has been said in the past. Cost is one factor but the negative impact on the adoptability has always been listed as a major factor.
Who is your source that the negative impact on the adoptibility is the major factor? I am one of the five members of the Board and one of the three members of the Executive Committee. The primary reason is the cost factor.
debbi j.
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@debbi:
For the record, BRAT does not do Fanconi marker testing because we can not afford it. If we tested each basenji that came into rescue each year, it would cost over $30,000 per year. Our adoption fees do not begin to cover our direct vetting expenses as it is. This is the primary reason BRAT does not test. In addition, the test is not 100% accurate.
debbi j.
The test is very true to form… there have been no Clears that have started to spill as of yet... that I know of and there are over 3500 Basenjis in the data base. I would hope that no one uses the excuse as a reason not to test.
And I have heard the same as Lisa as the main reason that BRAT doesn't test... also there have been suggestions made that when someone wants/needs to give up their Basenji that they are requested to make the 65.00 donation so the dog can be tested... not all are strays or from shelters. While maybe many would not, can't hurt to ask... and you might be surprised.
This is NOT a BRAT bash... just that I really think that these dogs should be tested before placement and the potential owners aware of what might come.
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And I have heard the same as Lisa as the main reason that BRAT doesn't test…
This is NOT a BRAT bash... just that I really think that these dogs should be tested before placement and the potential owners aware of what might come.
I don't see this as BRAT bashing. I am involved in the making of BRAT policy, and I know that is not the main reason. You may have heard this from individual BRAT members, but the opinion of individual members does not stand for the organization.
debbi j.
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@debbi:
I don't see this as BRAT bashing. I am involved in the making of BRAT policy, and I know that is not the main reason. You may have heard this from individual BRAT members, but the opinion of individual members does not stand for the organization.
debbi j.
I still think that on Basenjis being given up from the owners direct if you asked for a donation of 65.00 for the test, then it is not a cash outlay from BRAT. As they say, if you don't ask….
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I still think that on Basenjis being given up from the owners direct if you asked for a donation of 65.00 for the test, then it is not a cash outlay from BRAT. As they say, if you don't ask….
Unfortunately, most owners giving up a basenji will not even bring their dog up to date on shots, much less donate $65.00 for the test. We generally ask for a donation to help defray costs, but it seldom happens. So far this year, we have received seven donations when an owner surrendered their basenji to BRAT. In a more perfect world, things might be different.
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even though im new on this forum and pretty much uninformed, (and im sure ill be told so by at least one person) i do want to say several things
something was posted in this thread about most brat dogs being listed as not good with children under 12 as though this was an indicator of the instability of rescue dogs vs reputable breeders dogs.
sebastian my foster will be listed as needing to go to a home with children over 12. i requested that, not because i think hes a danger but because i feel he needs a home where his space and person will be respected by everyone in the household, which is as it should be for any dog, breeder pup OR rescue. sebastian is good with anyone who respects his space and person whether they are 2 years old or 80 years old human or canine, but if they dont then he will let them know, which could result in his being without a home once more, so why take the chance?
dogs are not responsible for teaching children or adults appropriate behavior.
personally i think that you are setting ANY dog up to fail if you place them in a home with children who are either too young to understand the concept of respecting the family dogs space and person or in a home with children whose parents fail to teach the children that the family dog deserves as much respect as any other member of the household.there was an email from brat recently about a dog who needed a home asap because the 9 year old in the home was tormenting the dog.
i think brat is wise in posting most dogs as needing homes with kids over 12 years of age, there may be very good reasons why some of the dogs are posted that way.
but in general it just makes sense to take one of the major reasons dogs are taken to shelters or rescues out of the equation when posting a dog for adoption who has already been abandoned once.second
i have just started fostering with brat and i have to say that im amazed at the amount of money they spend on these dogs
sebastian has in just the past few weeks had over 400.00 spent on tests, medications, xrays etc.telling an owner that they Have to pay 65.00 for testing of their dog would im sure cause many of the relinquishing owners to simply take their dog to the pound, list it on craigslist as a "free dog" or just abandon it.
would testing for fanconi be good? of course and maybe one of these days brat will financially see their way clear to do so, but until then lets just applaud them for the work they do and have faith that if there is any way possible to test every dog they will figure out a way to do so.
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Westcoast..well said. BRAT does vet the dogs they have in their care.
We are very lucky to have BRAT help b's in need. -
What if the adopting party offered to pay for the test before they committed to taking the dog?
