time to see the vet
For Sale: Basenji pups For Sale in Nampa ID
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I went back to the thread, and here are the actual words of the only 3 posters mentioning Manu (other than me):
Andrea, I go by actual words, not what you or anyone ascribe the meaning to be.
Linda's words attacked no one.
JoT absolutely attacked Linda.
Linda questioned Manu being the ultimate expert. That isn't disrespecting, that is an opinion and asking for verification. And if you read sarcasm into her questioning, so be it– but that doesn't make it disrespectful nor does it make the question invalid. What makes Manu THE expert? The only response Jo gave was because she is from the Congo and others think she is one. Fine, except that doesn't MAKE her THE ultimate and only expert. It doesn't. People can disagree with her or think she is wrong. If someone thinks the Avuvi should be included with Basenjis and someone else thinks they shouldn't, it is ultimately just opinions.
And here is a thought. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't breed Basenji, not going to breed them. I am not a guardian of the US development of the breed. But for someone to bring their road-rage onto a board and go after a member is clearly not okay. It demeans the person doing it more than the person they did it to.
And ultimately (yeah I like that word), the bottom line is simply that you don't get respect by spewing venom and accusations. On any virtual board, your posts should be judged not by some off board history but how you conduct yourself on that board. And in this case, Dr Jo, imho, behaved badly. The issue is not about expertise, it is about the right of others to have opinions. I don't know what Linda thinks about the Avuvis. I don't care, actually. But nothing she posted was worthy of that attack. Had I, even though I have no history with JoT, posted the same thing, I suspect I would have been attacked and accused of the same nefarious motives.
I am not so impressed with most "experts" in the dog world, whether it is trainers, breeders or anyone. (Right now many, including trainers, are bowing to and worshiping at the feet of an abusive trainer, they did before at Kohlers. Doesn't make them right.) I may think highly of, agree with or whatever, but at no point is someone so much an expert that their OPINION invalidates all others. You deal with hard facts, yeah there are rights and wrong (usually). But all this abuse over an opinion or asking a question?
So yes, I will jump in with disregard to history because history should be dealt with privately, off the forum, or with said history explained. Otherwise, I'll continue to judge and respond to posts based purely on what is written. And I'll continue to think that is precisely the appropriate response.
I am just going to have a short answer, because I refuse to argue every single sentence and statement. My husband once said to me "you were never in debate club, were you?" 'cause I just can't stand the point by point crap.
Nobody said Manou was THE expert…nobody said Jo was THE expert....nobody said Rose Marie was THE expert....nobody said Linda was THE expert....there can be lots of experts. I don't know Manou...I would never dare to question her expertise. I DO know Jo, and I believe in her expertise...she knows more about Africa and the area in which Basenjis are native to than all of us put together. She has spent more time in Africa than all of us put together. And she has done more research about the history of Basenjis in the Western World than most of us put together. I am simply not going to disregard someone's knowledge and intent due to an angry forum post. Nor will I jump on someone's drama bandwagon without knowing all the details of the backstory.
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I can never follow arguments on here. They get too complicated. lol
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I am just going to have a short answer, because I refuse to argue every single sentence and statement. My husband once said to me "you were never in debate club, were you?" 'cause I just can't stand the point by point crap.
…I am simply not going to disregard someone's knowledge and intent due to an angry forum post. Nor will I jump on someone's drama bandwagon without knowing all the details of the backstory.
Andrea, lol on your husband. Sorry, I like debate.. point by point really keeps things clear to me.
However, let me say one more thing… I am not disregarding Dr Jo's knowledge, or contributions (either to dogs, bonobos or the people of the DRC). But that doesn't excuse the attack, no history needed.
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I feel like Linda Blair from the Exorcist - my head is spinning here.<lol>
Andrea - how did we go from message #114 - where you you replied to each of my questions (which I appreciate) in such a direct and professional manner even ending with:
I have no personal issues with anything you have posted here.
…. to message #119 where you replied to the subsection of the same question with what I felt was a rather critical -
Well….I guess so...if open, honest and very civil includes written words DRIPPING with sarcasm.
Can you elaborate/give an example of the dripping with sarcasm part (apart from the sarcastic humor of course as I am terribly guilty of THAT!) as I just don't see it and feel I am being misunderstood perhaps??
If were gonna be all honest and upfront, my question would be: Katy and Linda, do you have problems with Dr. Jo and Lukuru project? Because that is how it appears?…...
...no reason for everybody to have a big drama attack because two individuals have some issues to hash out.
Honestly? I think the Lukuru dogs are awesome additions to the gene pool as they ooze old style breed type. It will be fun to watch how they are integrated into the domestic gene pool just as I have watched the Avongaras, and I wish them all the best!
Now then, I am really not sure how there can be an 'appearance of anything' based solely on my original post to this thread.
I had no idea Jo was on this forum. How in the world could I? In 3 years she has not posted a single post, until she decided to show me (and the rest of the group) the error of my ways yesterday - in her opinion of course - to what I thought was a pretty benign post sharing my opinions about the subject of native dogs with a query at the end asking for credentials of a presumed expert.
Andrea - you are the one who talks about hot buttons, you talk about how I tend to ask questions that piss people off, and you talk about Jo and I as though we have issues known to you. How is it you know so much and I know so little?
As stated I have never met Jo face to face that I can recall. Our private email exchanges have extended to basenjis that I can recall and nothing more. At least on my end - I have no issues at all with regard to her and I am not sure how my posts could even infer I do.
You and I have maybe met once Andrea - not sure as I used to confuse you with Brenda Phillips and certainly you and I have never had any private email exchanges except re: ASP CDs or when I was hoping to do a virtual standard with Eunice. So throwing your statement back at you -
If were gonna be all honest and upfront, my question would be:
- who is whispering in your ear and possibly obscuring impartiality towards me about hot buttons, issues needing to be hashed out and questions that piss them off in relations to me? I figure it is either that (someone whispering in your ear) or else you have all of these personal issues with me yourself. In which case - I would love to be able to address them head on and perhaps correct them if possible - on or off forum - your choice.</lol>
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wow! seeing those native dogs was very interesting. seeing some of the dogs here (http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/A…s/List2010.htm), i now can see clearly how little i know about the basenji type. the stocky snout and non-curly tail would have totally led me to believe that those bottom two were not basenjis.
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Hey, this thread started with Avuvis being advertised for sale!
Why do so many people have to read insults into the written word? Perhaps being English I mistake the nuances in the words of people from other countries as I'm sure that they may in mine. I read no insults into JoT's comments.
So back to the original thread I find the Avuvis very interesting and found Manu (I now know her proper name, but she introduced herself to me as Manu) as extremely knowledgeable on the breed. The fact that this other lady advertised Avuvi puppies on a Basenji site suggests to me that she hasn't the knowledge that Manu has.
I agree that just because someone is born and lives in a country doesn't always make them knowledgeable about that country's native dogs. But if that person has an interest in dogs they normally do get to know about their native ones intimately and can gather information that sometime visitors to their country can't.
The UK Kennel Club is much more reticent nowadays in accepting new imports into a breed and usually will only accept dogs recognised as that breed in their countries of origin if that country has a recognised registration system.
Looking at some of the dogs now accepted into the Basenji breed I'm sure that were the KC to have the same system as the US I certainly wouldn't have certified some of the dogs which have been accepted there. I don't offer this as a criticism so please don't take it as so - to each his own after all.
I have been involved in Basenjis for many years and have actually seen some of the offspring of the dogs originally imported from the then Congo. A few years ago I saw a video of one of the visits to Central Africa to bring back some dogs and I was struck by how very different those native puppies were from those I'd seen. The same thing struck me when I've viewed Avuvi puppies. When viewing the pictures of the Lukuru Basenjis and puppies I could see our early imports there. Admittedly seeing pictures is not the same as seeing them in the flesh.
Further to a comment that a previous poster (I can't remember who) made that all breeds derived from mongrels - I must totally disagree and this is not borne out by others' researches.
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Why do so many people have to read insults into the written word? Perhaps being English I mistake the nuances in the words of people from other countries as I'm sure that they may in mine. I read no insults into JoT's comments.
Further to a comment that a previous poster (I can't remember who) made that all breeds derived from mongrels - I must totally disagree and this is not borne out by others' researches.
Last comment response.. not sure if you mean me but by mongrels I mean dogs without a stud book or "breed".. and I did state many had a type or whatever thanks to isolation etc.
For the rest, come on. You speak English and you found no insult in:
@JoT:
**Good grief. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. You did in fact jump to a conclusion and posted without any information.
**Your comment is a gross untruth of Manu (her given name is Emmanuelle Occansey).
Why do you think that you can belittle her authority?
In fact, if you had taken a moment to think before you posted,
Your statement is an insult to Africans and nothing more than propaganda to promote your own agenda.
Jo -
I feel like Linda Blair from the Exorcist - my head is spinning here.<lol>
Andrea - how did we go from message #114 - where you you replied to each of my questions (which I appreciate) in such a direct and professional manner even ending with:
…. to message #119 where you replied to the subsection of the same question with what I felt was a rather critical -
Can you elaborate/give an example of the dripping with sarcasm part (apart from the sarcastic humor of course as I am terribly guilty of THAT!) as I just don't see it and feel I am being misunderstood perhaps??
Honestly? I think the Lukuru dogs are awesome additions to the gene pool as they ooze old style breed type. It will be fun to watch how they are integrated into the domestic gene pool just as I have watched the Avongaras, and I wish them all the best!
Now then, I am really not sure how there can be an 'appearance of anything' based solely on my original post to this thread.
I had no idea Jo was on this forum. How in the world could I? In 3 years she has not posted a single post, until she decided to show me (and the rest of the group) the error of my ways yesterday - in her opinion of course - to what I thought was a pretty benign post sharing my opinions about the subject of native dogs with a query at the end asking for credentials of a presumed expert.
Andrea - you are the one who talks about hot buttons, you talk about how I tend to ask questions that piss people off, and you talk about Jo and I as though we have issues known to you. How is it you know so much and I know so little?
As stated I have never met Jo face to face that I can recall. Our private email exchanges have extended to basenjis that I can recall and nothing more. At least on my end - I have no issues at all with regard to her and I am not sure how my posts could even infer I do.
You and I have maybe met once Andrea - not sure as I used to confuse you with Brenda Phillips and certainly you and I have never had any private email exchanges except re: ASP CDs or when I was hoping to do a virtual standard with Eunice. So throwing your statement back at you - - who is whispering in your ear and possibly obscuring impartiality towards me about hot buttons, issues needing to be hashed out and questions that piss them off in relations to me? I figure it is either that (someone whispering in your ear) or else you have all of these personal issues with me yourself. In which case - I would love to be able to address them head on and perhaps correct them if possible - on or off forum - your choice.</lol>
OMG…seriously??? nobody is whispering in my ear....I have no personal issues with you....really, honestly. I have met you more than twice, but I don't really care if you confuse me with Brenda, because she is one of the most awesome people I know.
I actually posted my response to your individual questions before I read the part that I identified as sarcastic. I think the part about dissecting what it is to "live" somewhere is the part that made me roll my eyes.
I have no more knowledge about this discussion than you...I just have been reading your posts on list for years. Your posts don't piss me off...but surely you recognize that you spark people's angry responses? Maybe you don't. Maybe the sarcastic humor that you were speaking of is what I sensed. I do find you rather argumentative, but that is not a character flaw in my book
I tend to read between the lines, and maybe I read something that wasn't there...or maybe you accidentally, or intentionally like to put things inbetween the lines. I don't know, since I don't know really know you, as you pointed out.Either way, I always am intrigued by, and respect your point of view, even if I disagree with it.
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I don't know who any of you are, and you don't know me, so then I must be the EXPERT!!!!!:):):)
Sorry, couldn't resist. Expert, schmexpert.
Isn't this forum about basenjis and their awesomeness and all that entails? Or is about people constantly getting their feathers ruffled?
Like water on a ducks back, people, like water on a ducks back…..
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After reading two pages…
I would much rather make dinner for my family, play with my puppies and dogs, heck, I'd rather poop scoop than read the drivvle I have seen posted on those few pages.RM... the pups are cute. As a longtime breeder, dog owner, exhibitor and AKC judge, I respect what you are doing with the Avuvis. That doesn't mean I'd ever want to use them.. but I have no issues with thes dogs, any more than I do the DRC or Lukuru dogs.
In fact, MANY people on this forum LOVED the pictures I posted of some of your imports... of course, this was when I posted them and they had no idea they were imported from Benin.Now, I know you are doing the testing as much as possible and doing what is being required with the Avuvi project. Kudos to you. And kudos for not breeding a dog that flat out didn't pass a major health screening. Can ALL the breeders on here say they have done the same?? Yeah, I know the answer to that already, as do MANY others.
This forum was put together by a couple that thought they were doing a good thing by bringing together Basenji owners. Unfortunately, it has become a ground for people that have nothing better to do than throw their know-it-all opinions and trash-talk of others down the throats of newbies and those inquiring about the breed.
I thought I left HS 25 years ago... apparently the crap and gossip that went on there is now here. Yet another reason why I discontinued referring my puppy buyers to this website.
Don't waste your typing skills flaming me... because those that would... are most definitely not worth the time it would take me to read through pages just to respond to you.
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Well…I guess that topic is closed....
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There truly is no need for either of you to be sarcastic.
There is also no need to be rude… it reflects upon you as a BREEDER.
W:)hile you may try to show people you care about the breed, you are just flat out being nasty to Rose Marie.
If you don't like her dogs, that is fine.
But, is it really necesary to treat her the way you have been on a public forum? -
She was nasty before anyone else, so go chastise her.
I am not a breeder. I neither like nor dislike her dogs, but I certainly don't like someone advertising dogs as basenji, refusing to give health but indicating it's been done and will be given to buyers when a check of OFA shows NOT done, and then attacking people who question her.
And btw, breeding without testing is about as irresponsible as breeding dogs who failed imho because if you don't test, you don't know. Same lack of ethics.
Oh and thought you were done?
And sorry I wasn't being sarcastic, I was laughing at a very short to the point post.
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Please - in the holiday spirit, can we lay this post to rest? There is more than enough anger in the world.
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There truly is no need for either of you to be sarcastic.
There is also no need to be rude… it reflects upon you as a BREEDER.
W:)hile you may try to show people you care about the breed, you are just flat out being nasty to Rose Marie.
If you don't like her dogs, that is fine.
But, is it really necesary to treat her the way you have been on a public forum?But I guess it is okay for you to be nasty to me? and the other breeders who post here regularly? okay…
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Please - in the holiday spirit, can we lay this post to rest? There is more than enough anger in the world.
Sorry Fran
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I agree we need to be civil. Sorry too Fran.
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Amen Fran,,,,,Amen
Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to you all -
Although this thread is dying or dead … since my post two days ago seemed to spark a bit of furor, I would like to make a brief comment and then I will be silent.
First, I laughed out loud at the apt description of this exchange as feeling like Linda Blair from the Exorcist. After reading the pages of posts, my head is spinning too.
Wow, things got really twisted.To be fair, for those who pointed out that it would have been better for me to limit my post to the facts and information without the confrontational context, I do agree.
As can happen, the information (about Manu's background) seems to have been lost in my delivery (words of frustration) and in the subsequent redirection to focus on the messenger (me).I wrote my original note out of my annoyance at comments on other lists of which some of you do not see. That left some of you angry about the tone of my words.
I read the statement that "As far as I know [Manu] is no more of an expert then XXX - as both have been to Africa and both own Native dogs from a similar region. As always - I like to have as many facts as possible before leaping to a conclusion." as conclusive statement of alleged fact, not a question. My reaction was a knee-jerk defense of Manu.I did not presume that anyone knew anything about me. My original post was only about Manu; it was not about me. When presenting facts about Manu's background, I did not realize that I had to qualify myself in order to make the facts acceptable or not.
It was only later that I replied on my own behalf in response to specific presumptions made about who I am.In no instance did I address any individual dogs, any importation effort, any analysis of type or typiness of imports, nor did I make any comment about what is in the best interest for the breed, nor did I say anything about my personal background having any reflection on Manu's level of knowledge, nor did I ever label myself as the ultimate expert / guardian / ultimate decision maker for the breed, etcetera. … all things attributed to me in 'your' (generic) posts.
Again, my post was not an opinion post or my view of anything but was only a presentation of facts and information about Manu. Admittedly, the message was framed by my sentiments founded in posts outside the purview of this forum. That was my mistake.I must say, reading the comments from the past two days has certainly been enlightening to me on many levels.
Thank you all for your candor.
Jo