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Puppy Pedigree - Expertise Needed!
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Hello! This forum is amazing…I'm hoping to get some help!
Below is the pedigree of the puppy I'm considering. My understanding of the chart is that the mother is probably affected with Fanconi and that father is clear (Given that both his parents are clear). This would mean that the puppy is a carrier but not at risk at developing fanconi? I do not plan on breeding so isn't something I need to worry about right?
Thanks for your help!
And a shot of the puppy…What a cutie
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One parent (sire) is untested (though comes from clear parents and "could" be clear himself) the other(dam) is affected. So worse case (and probably long shot) - your boy could be affected himself (assuming one of the grandparents are NOT truly clear and pass the gene along and his father has it to pass along.) But for sure your boy is at least a carrier since the mom only has carrier genes to give him.
I would suggest you have them test the pup prior to your falling head over heels and find out.
Or take your chances.
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Okay thanks. That pretty much confirms what I thought to be the case. The breeder seems somewhat inexperienced so I've gotten in touch with the owner of the sire who has been very helpful.
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My boy is from a CL x AFS breeding and he is indeterminate between clear and carrier. We treat him as a carrier. I agree with Linda, get a swab test done on the puppy first then you know for sure.
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My boy is from a CL x AFS breeding and he is indeterminate between clear and carrier. We treat him as a carrier. I agree with Linda, get a swab test done on the puppy first then you know for sure.
Thanks for the advice! Generally speaking, how long does it take to get the results back?
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When I did my puppy boy back in June - it took 4 days from the day they received the swab.
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There are a lot more things to consider than Fanconi when selecting a puppy.
Here are a few things to help you screen breeders.
http://www.basenji.org/learn/ScreeningBreeders.htmThe things about this pup that would concern me include:
1.) Since the OFA does not recognise "clear by parentage", the sire of the litter should have had a Fanconi DNA test done prior to breeding. I would ask why the owner of the sire did not have the test done, especially since the cost is only $65.
2.) I have no problem whatsoever with an affected being bred to a clear when the sire is the one who is affected and the dam clear. But since there is a possibility that the stress of pregnancy could potentially escalate physical symptoms of Fanconi, I would question why the owner chose to breed this female.
3.) I would ask why neither the sire or dam have had any other health tests done, such as hip x-rays, eye CERFs, etc. I would also ask why so few of their closest ancestors have had any health tests done also. "I have never had a problem with _____." is not an acceptable answer when documentation is not there to back it up.
4.) I would ask to see a copy of the breeder's contract. If they don't use one, why not?
Anyway that's just a few things to think about. Hope you find it helpful.
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I would ask the breeder why she is breeding an affected bitch. I would also ask if the dam is currently being tested at least monthly for glucose in the urine. She will be four years old in December and could be. If she is, I would ask if she is on the Fanconi protocol and why she would breed a dog that is. I would worry about her receiving enough nutrients, especially calcium for both her and the unborn pups, considering that Fanconi affecteds urinate nutrients and must be supplemented.
I have a Fanconi affected at home and it can be difficult in keeping normal values of nutrients. My girl's recent test showed a just below normal level of potassium. About a year ago, I had to increase it and will have to do so again.
If you have not read the Fanconi Protocol, I highly suggest you do so you will know what needs to be done to keep a Fanconi affected dog healthy. Here it is:
http://www.basenji.org/ClubDocs/fanconiprotocol2003.pdf
Jennifer
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I would have to agree and ask why they would bred a bitch that was DNA as Fanconi Affected. Granted it is everyone's own opinion about breeding… but I would never consider breeding an DNA Affected bitch.
That said, I would consider breeding a Clear Bitch to an Affected Dog... and usually would only use frozen sperm to do so......and only if that is the "last" of the line....
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I would have to agree and ask why they would bred a bitch that was DNA as Fanconi Affected. Granted it is everyone's own opinion about breeding… but I would never consider breeding an DNA Affected bitch.
That said, I would consider breeding a Clear Bitch to an Affected Dog... and usually would only use frozen sperm to do so......and only if that is the "last" of the line....
This was my thought exactly. It has been fairly well anecdotally documented that pregnancy hastens the onset of Fanconi symptoms. So, I would be critical of someone who chose to breed an affected bitch.
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So, I would be critical of someone who chose to breed an affected bitch.
Well then, there are several well known breeders we should all be critical off as they too have bred DNA affected bitch basenjis.
One thing - the pups are on the ground and from the look of the picture - at least 8 weeks old. No sense in this person asking why they're breeding an affected bitch - it's already done and the person has said the breeder is a total novice - so compared to the experienced breeders who have done the same - should we be so critical of the newbie?
What I wonder is why the stud owner allowed his dog to be used on not only a DNA affected bitch but one who seems to have come from either byb or pm stock.
Cute puppy though.
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Well then, there are several well known breeders we should all be critical off as they too have bred DNA affected bitch basenjis.
One thing - the pups are on the ground and from the look of the picture - at least 8 weeks old. No sense in this person asking why they're breeding an affected bitch - it's already done and the person has said the breeder is a total novice - so compared to the experienced breeders who have done the same - should we be so critical of the newbie?
What I wonder is why the stud owner allowed his dog to be used on not only a DNA affected bitch but one who seems to have come from either byb or pm stock.
Cute puppy though.
The original poster asked for opinions….I was simply stating my opinion, that I would be critical of this practice, regardless of who was doing it. One of the perks of purchasing from a breeder is lifelong support, experience and knowledge at my request, I would want to choose someone that understands, can justify and explain why she chose to breed an affected bitch.
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What I wonder is why the stud owner allowed his dog to be used on not only a DNA affected bitch but one who seems to have come from either byb or pm stock.
I beg to differ with this. While the actual breeder could be deemed a BYB, the dogs behind the dam were quality animals. Asting used to show their dogs in my area and the dogs were quite nice. I also knew Ch. Candu's Playing With Fire and Ch. Muzzal's Little Nessie. The dam of the litter could very well have been show quality. (I am not surprised by the Fanconi affected status though.)
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As a basenji lover without any breeding experience…. my advice is to follow your heart. If you and that cute puppy have bonded and you think you can love this boy until he's 15 or 16.... then I say go for it. You can love him through thick and thin, then do it. When you come home and he's scattered the trash throughout the house, but he's wagging his tail and rooing you in happiness... and you can deal with the good and the bad, then yes, get this cute little dog.
I'm not sure if you are looking for a show quality dog? Or just one to love? If it's one to add to your family, then I'm not much into the pedigree, other than as a "that's nice" thought. Again, I am not a breeder. And when people meet my basenjis, they ask about the breed, are charmed by their happiness and curly tails, but no one has ever asked me what their papers say.
So, follow your heart, balanced with your checkbook. If this dog is expensive and you can afford it, that's great too. Otherwise there are many dogs through BRAT and Craig's List that people have available. Many times people are enchanted by the curly tail and wrinkles and don't understand what they've gotten into... and a year later, they've given up.
Good luck in your decision (or have you already decided?).
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Okay thanks. That pretty much confirms what I thought to be the case. The breeder seems somewhat inexperienced so I've gotten in touch with the owner of the sire who has been very helpful.
Since the sire's owner BRED to the bitch, don't put a lot of faith there either.
I am sorry about the litter, but I hate seeing people put money in the hands of irresponsible breeders. You are essentially voting with your dollars that this person CONTINUES to breed without caring about the health of what she creates. Do you want to do that?
Please consider looking for a quality bred litter or rescue, not helping this person continue what she is doing. Untested dogs being bred, lots of untitled… sire isn't even 2 yet, ... sire of the dam under 2 yrs old when she was whelped. Your puppy would have nothing titled for 4 generations on dam's side.
Let me put it succinctly. Call the breeder, tell her she is irresponsible and why. Offer to consider, at a greatly reduced price, a puppy IF SHE PAYS FOR TESTING if you just have to have that puppy. Otherwise, best advice.. run. Fast. Let people here help you find a well bred puppy.
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I beg to differ with this. While the actual breeder could be deemed a BYB, the dogs behind the dam were quality animals. Asting used to show their dogs in my area and the dogs were quite nice. I also knew Ch. Candu's Playing With Fire and Ch. Muzzal's Little Nessie. The dam of the litter could very well have been show quality. (I am not surprised by the Fanconi affected status though.)
Those quality dogs are what - 3 generations back? If you look at any PM or BYB you will eventually find quality dogs.
The dam, her parents and grandparents come from what appears to be PM/BYB stock. Looking at Sally's website - the dams parents - who are both carriers - were bred three times for a total of 20 pups - that's a lot of potential affected puppies out there.
Sorry - while there is certainly quaility dogs back there - these dogs are not coming from responsible/quality breeders.
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I gave the following information to Sally Wallis in December 2007 regarding the breedings of these carrier dogs and others:
"I have some more information for you about some
litters and their sire and dams.The breeder is Jodie L. Brown of Shadow Hill Kennel,
214 Shadow Hill, Cape Girardeau, MO 63701,
www.shadowhillkennel.comSire of puppies-Jackie Boy Edwards, APRI
Registered-L06-ZA-DG-40792T, Red & White, I do not
have a DOB but will try to obtain it.Sire of Jackie Boy Edwards-Asting's Rocket Man, In
your database
Dam of Jackie Boy Edwards-Asting's Memphis Belle, In
your databaseDam of puppies-Kenyas Kiki Kontiki, APRI
Registered-B04-VZ-DG-35789F, Red & White, I do not
have a DOB but will try to obtain itSire of Kenyas Kiki Kontiki-Son of Charlie, APRI
Registered-A03-ZA-DG-37433T, In your database with an
AKC numberDam of Kenyas Kiki Kontiki-Lindy's Shombay, APRI
Registered-B04-AZ-DG-35575T, In your database with an
AKC numberHere are the litters of puppies:
DOB-12/20/05
6 Males
2 FemalesDOB-12/15/06
Yakira-F-Red & White
Yetta-F-Red & White-Sold to Martha in SC
Yeisha or Yiesha-F-Red & White-Sold to Kim in FL
Yoko-F-Red & White-Sold to Derrick in IL
Yvett-F-Red & White
Yori-M-Red & White-Sold to Arie & Jennette in IL
Yoshi-Red & White-Sold to Marc in Boston, MADOB-11/19/07
Bailey-F-Red & White
Birkley-M-Red & White
Blanche-F-Red & White
Bosley-M-Red & White
Brina-F-Red & WhiteAnother breeding was Jackie Boy Edwards to Zuko. I
have no information about Zuko other than that she was
sold to a pet home and she is Red & White. The litter
was born in January 2005. One male is Jagger, was
named Aristotle, now in CA and a female Ikca, was
named Angelica. They are both Red & White."Jennifer
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Seems ShadowhillsKennel is out of basenjis???
Here is a link discussing this breeder:
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=5467
If you go to the document link, then delete the pdf part you will find the old website where she was breeding basenjis, corgis, cresteds, italian greyhounds and poms.
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Thanks everyone for all your valuable feedback. It's certainly been very helpful. I've been talking to the breeder some more and we are working out arrangments for getting all the proper tests done. She is definitely not a puppy mill nor do I think she's intentionally been irresponsible. I simply think she's unfamiliar with the standards that are expected from the BCOA. A lack of due dilligence is certainly not the best excuse for a breeder to have but it's better to learn late than never.
Seems ShadowhillsKennel is out of basenjis???
Here is a link discussing this breeder:
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=5467
If you go to the document link, then delete the pdf part you will find the old website where she was breeding basenjis, corgis, cresteds, italian greyhounds and poms.
This is not the breeder who I'm talking to. Although I do think she bought her basenji from this breeder.
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Thanks everyone for all your valuable feedback. It's certainly been very helpful. I've been talking to the breeder some more and we are working out arrangments for getting all the proper tests done. She is definitely not a puppy mill nor do I think she's intentionally been irresponsible. I simply think she's unfamiliar with the standards that are expected from the BCOA. A lack of due dilligence is certainly not the best excuse for a breeder to have but it's better to learn late than never.
QUOTE]You can also talk to Michelle that bred the Mibre side. If you have questions as to why, she should be able to answer you. I do know that there are a few owners out there who did not get the full answers they needed and did not have a mentor before they started breeding. This is personal knowledge. As you say, better late than never.
