Have you had the vet look at your boy yet?
Need Home for Basenji
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We thought about the "K9 disarming", but the vets in our area don't do it. They euthanize before they pull or file dog's teeth. Yeah, we could probably find someone, but, like a muzzle, it doesn't change the behavioral issue and tooth removal/filing actually does less than a muzzle does regarding protecting others. A dog with ANY teeth can still bite and could potentially cut or tear skin.
We also explored medication. The last behaviorist we went to, the dog trainer (George ****rell) and my vet said not to put him on drugs. They all have agreed that it's not really a mental issue with the dog - he has simple been abused to the point of fearing everyone that is a stranger to him. The side effects of prozac and the other 'calming' drugs available for dogs include agression. While I could certainly TRY these options, we chose not to. Knowing what we know, he would still be behind the muzzle 24/7. So why add drugs into the mix when the problem is currently idle?
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The purpose of drugs is to change the stress and allow the dog to learn behaviors. Like with humans, psychiatric drugs are not the cure, they are there to HELP while new behaviors are worked on. Often a dog who has learned fearful behaviors, on medication, can be trained. Often the drugs give enough off the edge so that the dog is less reactive. And yes, some drugs can have side effects of aggression, but that is NOT the norm.
Second, if the dog is that aggressive, it has to be terribly stressed. The drugs may help the dog feel less stressed and that is a good thing, no? Muzzle or not, if medications can help make this dog feel less threatened, it is a plus imho to try it.
Third, teeth. Yes filed teeth still can give pressure damage, but the bite on a small dog is not bad. On a large dog, it would still be dangerous. Leveling the teeth makes the dog not a danger. And like I said, I understand your vet's feelings. So many good dogs, the expense of saving one dangerous one with pulling all the teeth or filing doesn't seem like a good use of funds. But since you are determined to not put down, and looking at over $1000 for a lot, then another $960 a year for life for care… I just offered it as an option to allow the dog to be with humans (ie your home) and not live in a pen for the rest of his life.
That said, I am sorry but I have seen dogs horrifically abused who do not learn that level of aggression. For this dog to respond the way it does, there are "mental" or behavioral components not just having been abused. I am confused about the abuse indicated.. do you KNOW this dog was abused or just surmise it since your post only mentions having bitten previous owner and teen on street, not abuse. Often people get an insanely aggressive dog and just think it must have been abused when in reality the dog simply is what it is.
Finally, no matter what... you are a saint. Whatever happens with this dog, even if you put him down tomorrow, you have given him love and security beyond what most people would have done.
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We may still someday try drugs, god knows they have helped the rest of my family!
Regarding the disarming, you are correct. I simply see no need to spend this type of money on THAT and put him through the procedure and adjustment when we have found a rather innocuous method to alleviate the danger. Granted, there still remains the possibility that a finger could slip the muzzle and be injured, but it's less likely than an injury related to dull teeth. I think, psychologically, that a bite from a dog with flat teeth would be more traumatic than a dog bumping his face into you in an attempted bite. With the muzzle, the 'bite' does not occur. With flat teeth, the bit still occurs. The money spent on a possible sanctuary situation, in my opinion, is a better option for now because things are working at this point. It's the eventual child factor we are preparing for. Muzzle or not, disarmed or not - it will be an entire new element in the equation. Tucker may turn into a kids most valuable defender, or, he may try to eat a kid. We just can't know that now.
What I can't remember whether or not I have posted is that during all of this, he suffered a lens luxation in his right eye. Currently, we're administering eyedrops to the tune of around $200/month to keep inflammation and eye pressures at bay. So far, so good. The eye specialist says the other lens will go at some point, but cannot define a timeframe. Some the next day, some never - but never is very rare. So in addition to the other issues, there's blindness on one side. I did have him checked for head trauma from his past - no evidence. According to the doctor, a dog would have to simply be knocked completely stupid and potentially killed for a lens to come loose due to impact or head trauma. I had him checked because he stepped through an open set of concrete stairs and whacked his face on the step just prior to the lense coming loose. No cuts or bleeding, but in hindsight, I remembered he had done that prior to the luxation. If the other DOES go, we will opt for the micro-surgery (another $5K) to preserve sight in the remaining good eye. The doc says dogs adapt with one good eye and function 100% normally (with the exception of the occasional wall he bumps into on that side). Having weighed all the options (drops, eye removal and the micro surgery), we, along with the doctor, decided, presently, the drops were the way to go. I also didn't think he would adjust too well to the required 6 weeks in an Elizabethan Collar. If you don't have VPI Pet Insurance, I highly recommend it. It cuts the surgeries by around 40% and it's been well worth it for Tucker. It also pays for a considerable amount of his drugs and the office visits to the specialists and regular vet visits we've endured this (and other) year(s).
Some of this is personal preference, some are assumptions. I'd like to think I've done the best for him that I could have given our circumstances. Considering all that we have endured this year (behaviorist kill diagnoses, lens luxation, integration of a nutcase drunk into our home and a move), I think he's done quite well. The move, especially, went as slick as it could have possibly gone. He's adapted almost immediately. He's only tried to REALLY bite 3 people since the muzzle went on and that was….geeze...March or so? One was in the past 2 weeks and I don't really count it because it was a locksmith. Who doesn't want to bite a locksmith???
The main difference now is that he quickly realizes he can't do any damage and life goes on whether he's tried to bite someone or not. While he used to shake and rattle for a while after the 'incidents', he now just skulks away and ignores the situation.
As for abuse, we are assuming. According to the previous owner, there were just two of them. They had a limited social life and did not have many guests into their home. Therefore, I imagine Tucker bonded with them both. When wife got pregnant, the bond shifted from wife and 'bun in the oven', leaving hubby out of the picture. Tucker became aggressive toward the husband in defense of the wife and unborn child in her belly. All incidents they reported to me after I realized the situation I was in once I adopted him, and incidents occurred on my end, appeared to be in defense of the wife and unborn child. The main reasons we assume abuse was that he was rehomed 4 times in his first 6 months of life and came to the family before me with the broken tail. The bone protrudes from the end of the fur/skin. It's bare bone there. Indicative (based on what I've read, observed myself from flinging squirrels by their tails as an incorrigable teenager and upon observation from several veterinarians) of a pull-off rather than a cut (like from a door or crate shut on it). Something that occurred to me as I read responses last night is something new to me. It never dawned on me that there could be nerve damage in his tail and rear-end that could be causing him pain. Combine that with the fact that I have only seen him wag his tail about 3 times in 4 years might mean something I've thus far missed. However, I can touch his tail and he doesn't appear to react which is why this has never, until now, occurred to me before. I have even wagged it for him with my fingers. He pretty much reacted like I would think any other dog would. He looks over his shoulder and snorts at me and, if he could talk, I would imagine he would be saying something like, "Dude....WTF?"
Tucker will not be allowed to hurt anyone ever again. He will also, as long as I have a say in it, be able to live the rest of his life.
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Thanks for the udate, Tucker's dad! I am glad to hear that you are sticking with him. Good work
Sometimes taking away the bite, makes the dog relax, because he doesn't feel like he can or must control the situation. It also may interrupt the chain of emotions that leads to him losing control. -
Thanks for the update, i'm glad you are copeing. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to for their pets.
Hats off to you, it can't be easy. -
Have to agree, sounds like he truly had a rough time. Bless his and your heart.
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Poor Tucker, having had so many homes in such a short while - and well done for looking after him so well.
It seems you can all (including Tucker) live with the muzzle so what would be the point of filing/removing teeth - it seems barbaric to me.
Ble
ss you for doing the best you can for him. -
Most pull or file the teeth so the dog can lick, groom and do other normal dog things without a muzzle on… or when the dog is likely to bite ANYONE if it's off so there is no safe time, or if it hates the muzzle, starts getting skin irritation, etc.
Sorry Patty, but calling it barbaric.. I do hope you realize many would consider the muzzle barbaric or animal refuges or ANYTHING not "normal." It is a personal call and I don't consider the people who do it barbaric. They make choices that they feel is best for their dog and situation and I respect that as much as I would Tucker's mom or the person who immediately euthanized.
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Believe it or not, Tucker grooms through the muzzle now - when he gets the grooming urge late at night. However, I get home from work prior to my wife and the crazy woman is usually passed out drunk. We've gated her room off (crazy's), so after I feed, I typically leave it off for a bit. He normally does two things…he pleasures himself and then he grooms...and in that order. :rolleyes:
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Tucker, I am not able to understand what your saying. Pleasures himself and grooms?
Are you just talking about licking Or something else? Why is this b wearing a muzzle? -
Just found this thead and thought about my "Thunder",who is now passed on 7 years ago.
He had seizure related aggression.
I used a muzzle on him for years to keep me and others safe. And, he reacted in much the same way. He would ask to have it put back on.
He was good 99.99% of the time but would for no reason "go off" at times. He bit me quite badly several times,but I loved him dearly and he was my "soul mate" "heart dog".
He was on prozac for a year and a half which worked for him but was in the end his downfall. It damaged his liver and he died of multi system breakdown.Everything failed,liver,kidneys,etc.
It's been 7 years and I still cry,I will never get over it.KDL
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Tucker, I am not able to understand what your saying. Pleasures himself and grooms?
Are you just talking about licking Or something else? Why is this b wearing a muzzle?The dog wanks. And then he grooms. Two different things.
As for the muzzle and reasons why he is wearing it, you involved in the beginning of this thread. Perhaps if you went back to the first couple of pages, it would jog your memory.
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Sorry about your dog KDL. However, I have found no studies indicating that prozac is responsible for liver or organ failure. Did your veterinarian tell you that? Prozac is safe for people with liver disease (although dose may need adjusting due to decreased processing). Unless your dog was highly allergic to the drug, such systemic issues are not likely to be prozac related. And that kind of allergic reaction would have been obvious and prevented the use long before such organ damage would occur. I really do not want probable misinformation (or undocumented very rare occurrence) to scare off people from a legitimate helpful medication.
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Hate to disagree with you but, my vet of over 30 years said that that was the cause.
A human drug,an adult dose for a human 10mg. and the length of time he was on it,did him in.
What might be safe for a human,is not safe for a dog. -
Can you ask your vet to provide research on it? If it really is dangerous, I'd like to see evidence.
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DebraDownSouth - I guess we have to agree to disagree about teeth removal to solve aggression problems but I do respect what you say.
Just reviewed this posting and seen the posting about Prozac. Is it totally harmless? Isn't it possible that giving this Basenji a human dose (which surely would be an overdose?) over an extended period could result in liver and other organ failure whatever the drug?
I'm interested in your response.
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Prozac, with the name Reconcile is approved for safe use in dogs, and comes in 16 and 32 mg, so 10 mg would not be an overdose at all.
2 of my dogs took prozac 10 mg for 3 years and one year. No liver damage or health problems. They are 6 and 10 respectively. -
Let me clearn things up about Thunder and the prozac he was prescribed.
Thunder was a crack puppy,what do I mean by that? It's a long story.Let's just say he was exposed to crack cocaine in his moms womb.
He suffered brain damage as well as damage to his other organs.
This wasn't known until his death.
The prozac did contribute to his death because he was compromized.
I went though much the same things that Tuckers' owner.
I didn't want to euthanize Thunder. I loved him and did everything in my power to make him safe and me safe.
He lived 8 years ,the most blessed years of my life. He was a great dog and I will never forget him.
I need to stop now because it is really to painful for me to talk about. -
Thunder was a crack puppy,what do I mean by that? It's a long story.Let's just say he was exposed to crack cocaine in his moms womb.
He suffered brain damage as well as damage to his other organs.
This wasn't known until his death.
The prozac did contribute to his death because he was compromized.I am so sorry. That is horrible.
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Let me clearn things up about Thunder and the prozac he was prescribed.
Let's just say he was exposed to crack cocaine in his moms womb.
He suffered brain damage as well as damage to his other organs.
This wasn't known until his death.I am so sorry for your loss, and I don't believe there is anyone who doesn't know you did all you could.
But a necropsy would show damage, not that prozac did it. Before you attributed all the damage to prozac, now to crack exposure? I just don't want anyone reading your post to not use prozac based on your claims. If your vet has one drop of proof prozac (or crack) did it, your vet should have submitted the claim to the company. Period. Because right now massive amt of dogs and humans have used the drug and not one case of organ damage shows as reported. In fact, I don't know how your vet KNOWS it had anything to do with crack either… even exposed, the issues could be genetic, viral or other things. Drug dealers and users, crack makers... many have dogs around the drugs. I can find any reports that it causes organ damage. So while it seems a plausible theory, sounds like your vet gave it as facts.
I would be more than happy to get the drug company number for you for your vet to contact them. But please be careful about saying a drug did such devastation without proof. Prozac has helped many animals stay alive, be retrained, live without demons that would have meant euthanasia.
Patty, on the teeth... let me be real clear. Before I would pull a dog's teeth OR make it live in a muzzle, I'd put it down. But I also support people who make those choices, though not ones I would do. We all know what we can and will live with. I don't think either is abusive to the dog. My concern is having a dog for which those measures have to be taken. Yet, I loved and helped care for a pretty scary wolf hybrid who had to be kenneled (indoor/outdoor run, not a crate) til he died. He wasn't mine, but I wouldn't have put him down so there you go. We don't know til we have been the ones calling the shots. And people with nasty little Lhasa's (LOL I fostered one the rescue nicknamed Hannibella Lecture).. well you can't muzzle them, lol. Anyway, we don't have to agree.
But I do know the multitude of toothless dogs living happy lives would not like to be put down. I have fostered a few who were removed from puppymills. Happy dogs, no teeth. And bless the rescues who find them homes. I honestly am worried Arwen may end up among the toothless.
Right now am contemplating a new shot for gum bacteria even though my vet and my old research vet say wait a couple of years til it has been out longer.
