New Breeder Needs Help

[ComicDom1]

While I am not a breeder, for what its worth, here is my take:

Fanconi and other health issues currently exist in the gene pool.

Inexperienced or Irresponsible breeders have perpetuated the current health problems that the Basenji Breed suffers from. If you have read your history concerning the Basenji Breed, then you already know that certain health issues have made it necessary for the AKC to open the books so fresh stock without health issues could be brought into this country from Africa.

I would strongly urge anyone who is considering becoming a breeder to take this into consideration. These are serious issues and should not be taken lightly.

Any person considering breeding and raising Basenji's really needs to understand what it really requires. This is a very Intelligent, Independent, and High energy type of dog, and handling multiple dogs of this breed is sure to be a real challenge. Not all dogs end up with great temperaments, so a new breeder needs to know how to handle that issue as well.

You need to ask yourself, what experience do I really have with a Basenji? How well, do I understand Genetics? How much money and free time do I really have? What is my commitment level? What am I going to do if breeding Basenji's becomes more than I can handle?

The last thing that anyone who loves Basenji's is to see any Basenji sent off to a shelter or to be Euthanized because the owner and or Breeder was unprepared. Or god forbid the puppies would end up with perpetuated genetic defects because the breeder was uneducated, uniformed, and did not bother to spend the money necessary to test the dogs they bred, own, and explore the preexisting health issues in the pedigree prior to breeding.

Jason and Miranda

[Jylly18]

I don't think she means she just "gives the puppies away" it means that the money she gets from them mostly gets put back into the business for health testing, etc. So yes, she does charge money, its just that not much of it is profit…am I right? At least, that is what I get out of it. I doubt you are in it "just to make money" but I am sure there is a lot to learn, and hopefully there is someone that can patiently help you like you are looking for...is there another breeder in your area you can talk to? Maybe you could visit and see what her set-up looks like? I don't know, I know nothing about breeding, but hopefully you can find someone nice to help you decide if breeding is right for you or not...

[ComicDom1]

@LiLi:

Well, I just want to breed sweet socialized basenjis that's all. I do want money for the baby's I would be breeding, because if I said free, they'd go to god knows whos home. I mean, yeah, I would screen the people first, but if a dog is free you have a better chance of liars coming to get a free dog, than somebody who has the money to buy a puppy, and take care of it.

I've had my Li Ra (a rescue basenji-x puppy), for over a year now. She's just friggin' awesome.

I would of course take my puppy's back, if something happened and the people could'nt afford the dog anymore, or something like that happened. I don't intend to be a bad breeder at all, I just love the breed and want to breed them, my intentions for breeding are nothing but good.

I am worried about how many litters a female basenji dog can produce before it becomes too painful, or too much for her to do anymore. For me, that's just not acceptable, you can't have one breeding female basenji. It's just not right and fair to the dog.

I intended to get at least two litters out of a female basenji and then have her fixed and placed in a forever home. I don't care if it took a year, as long as it's a stable loving home for her.

I've converted our garage into a sterile environment, for the puppies, and plan to put some little kids furniture out there, and turn it into an awesome play house just their size.

I just don't know who to buy a healthy male from or female, I won't buy a puppy off of the internet ( just google basenjis for sale ) or at a pet store. I thought maybe a good breeder here could tell me how to go about this.

I'm looking for a male and female who have a clean family history, and who's parents have good mental health, socialized, etc.

I may be new to breeding, but so was everyone else here, when they had first started out. I could just start breeding any two basenji's tomorrow, and not care or test them and sell them, but I'm not.

"Basenji breeders in the U.S. charge between $500 and $850" - tanzabasenjis.com for a "companion" dog. So, you're telling me that you haven't made any proffit off of any of your puppy's, that you've "sold", when you pay for medical tests, food, shelter, etc ?

How is supposedly "giving away" basenji's you breed, making the breed better?

I don't see the problem here, if there is one.

Wow, I hope you are not serious about breeding!

[lvoss]

I think that it is important for anyone who is considering breeding a dog to understand the cost of doing it right. The cost is not just monetary either, I know from personal experience how high an emotional cost there is when your girl who is in exceptional health and everything was done right ends up in the emergency room for an emergency C-section.

Just to give an idea of some of the costs involved in a normal litter.

Before breeding, the dog you are considering breeding should have at least the 4 health tests done to obtain a CHIC number. That means hips, eyes, thyroid, and fanconi test. Hips and Fanconi test are only done once in a dog's lifetime but the the thyroid and eye exams will need to be repeated throughout the dog's life, so if you are planning on placing your bitch after breeding her you will need to find a home that is willing to do this continued health testing and stay in touch with you about the results.

The costs of the these tests will depend on vet care in your area but some rough estimates.
OFA X-ray done after 24 months of age - $100 + $35 OFA fee
Fanconi Marker Test - $60 + $25 or more for blood draw and overnight shipping (can be done as soon as the 3 cc of blood can be safely drawn)
CERF Eye Exam - $35 + $12 (Recommended to be done yearly)
Thyroid Panel - $75 + $15 OFA (Recommended yearly until 4 years old then every other year)

Now most responsible breeders do not own both the male and the female. Since all breeders who are breeding responsibly should be looking for the best match for the bitch conformationally, temperamentally, and health wise, it is often the case that the best match is not the dog that is in your house. Most breeders are going to want to know that you are committed the breed and are going to follow through with your litter and take back any puppies you produce for their lifetime. Some ways to these things are to become involved in local clubs, membership is usually around $17-25 a year, help with rescue in your area so you understand the very real issue of pet overpopulation and homeless basenjis, and to get involved in basenji activities like lure coursing, conformation, or agility. These events also help to prove the quality of your animal and what it has to offer the breed as a whole.

I do not count these expenses into the cost of breeding, just like I do not count the cost of the premium foods I feed my dogs and their annual exams. My dogs are first and foremost pets and companions so I figure I would do all of these things no matter what.

If everything checks out health-wise and your dog has proven that it has something to offer the breed and you have found a stud dog that compliments her the next step is to plan the breeding.

For my first breeding my expenses were something along the lines of

Brucellosis Test $35
Progesterone Tests $65 x 3
Don't remember what the cost of gas was back then, way cheaper than now but the trip to the stud dog was 600 miles round trip. I was also lucky and didn't need to get a hotel room since I could just stay with my mom who lived nearby.
Stud Fee $500
Ultrasound at 28 days - $75
X-ray prior to whelping - $75
Dew Claws - $35 + 15/pup
Microchips - $35/pup
Puppy Shots - $35 + $15/pup for 1st and again for 2nd shots
Eye Exams - $35/pup
AKC Registration - $20/pup

These costs don't include the whelping supplies, the extra food, the toys and everything I include in my puppies going home package.

An average litter is about 4 puppies.

In my second litter, I had all of the above expenses, even higher fuel costs to an even further location. I also lost one puppy and had to pay $1200 for an emergency C-section. Also, there was nothing that could have been done to prevent it. The puppy just plain got stuck. Bad luck pure and simple.

[ComicDom1]

@LiLi:

What?

A new breeder is asking other breeders for advice on where to buy two healthy basenjis from, to breed. I've researched Basenji's for months now. I never said I don't know anything about them, I said I'm new and need help to purchase them from the right [good] breeders.

She may not sell her puppies, but thats what I get from her website…..

Anyways, if you won't help me out here on who I should purchase them from, don't reply then. All you're doing is wasting my time, and yours by replying.

For a rescue agency worker, you're not very helpful, Miss Sharron.

Ok I will come out and say this: I have no idea how old you are, but Sharron is being very helpful. Sharron is telling you in the nicest way possible, that you really do not have any idea what it takes, and her greatest fear is the same as mine, that the breed will end up with another irresponsible breeder.

The fact that you believe that any responsible breeder might give away a healthy Basenji Puppies, shows that there is certainly a glitch in what you have researched in past few months, and logic you are sharing.

The fact that you think your garage could be sterile is beyond reason.

All this sounds similar to a young girl talking about getting pregnant just because she wants to be a Mommy! When you ask them why they want to be a Mommy, you get the standard answer, "Because that is what I want". As things turn out and the young girl gets pregnant, all of a sudden she is unhappy, and finds out there is a lot more to being a Mommy then just getting pregnant.

Jason

[LiLi]

Wow, I'll just end this here, sift through the mass idiotic spam and get what little information most of you have given me and go elsewhere. Can't beleive a breeding forum has this many rude and uninformed people on it.

Awesome information to a new breeder, the posts provided except ivoss's were really unhelpful.

[Vanessa]

First off let me state that I agree with what ComicDom1 and and the rest of the individuals who responded to what LiLi said. From the sounds of it…LiLi needs to do a lot more research before she decides on breeding. We are pretty sure that anywhere she goes she will get similar advice.

LiLi joined our forum expecting to find information and advice on how to breed basenjis and what she found (the so called idiotic spam) is NOT spam. It is individuals sharing their experiences and advice. We are not a breeding forum, and probably not the best place to seek this type of advice.

[Alex]

I agree with what Vanessa said. May I just remind everyone that the purpose of this forum is to provide a place for Basenji owners to make connections, exchange information, assist and encourage one another. It is above all a friendly environment for online discussion.

[serenjane]

I know nothing of breeding either, however the breeder I bought my Serenjane from was very serious about having her and her other puppies in a good home. Before the sale was finalized, the breeder took a deposit on the puppy, gave me lierature to read about the breed, required me to sign papers saying if for any reason we found we did not want her she must be returned to the breeder. We also had to sign a paper we would not breed her (we were not experienced with Basenjis) and we would have her spayed as early as possible and inform the breeder of this.
The breeder also wanted to know about our living arrangements, home or apartment and how big our yard was and did we have a fence. It was amazing the information we had to give. The breeder gave us a week to decide if this puppy was for us, while she held our deposit. A week later and another 300 miles round trip we brought our Serenjane home. That was 6 years ago. I love my Basenji but for me breeding would be out of the question.

[Quercus]

The other point to consider is there are not THAT many Basenji homes out there; and often even experienced, responsible breeders end up having puppies they are waiting to place, particularly as our economy declines.

If you think of it like a pie, the first and largest portion of the pie is people who think they want a basenji for the wrong reasons (clean, barkless, etc)…you don't want to sell to them, because they will be unhappy with their puppy. Then there is a section of the pie that would prefer to adopt a dog thru rescue, or an older dog (no problem with that!). Then there is a section of the pie that want to buy a puppy from a responsible breeder that has health tested breeding stock (that means genetic testing, not a vet check from your local vet) has put years of research into making the best match of the parents, is involved with either conformation or sport with their dogs, and will ask you a billion questions about how you will raise your puppy....these are the customers that most of us, who breed on this list are looking for.

But it sounds like you will fall into the category of backyard breeder...or someone who loves their pets and wants to make more for other people; and maybe make a little money on the side. I will tell you, there isn't much of a market for Basenjis in that area. Most of those puppies produced in that manner either end up in shelters, or in the puppy mill trade; mainly because the people that bred them don't do thorough enough screening of their puppy buyers.

To answer your original question, most of us who breed seriously, and responsibly spent years learning from mentors in the breed, spending hundreds (thousands?) of hours pouring over literature to learn about the breed; meeting and forming relationships with experienced breeders and deciding which lines we might want to use to breed from, and even then owning our breeding dogs on co-ownerships with those breeders.

There are very few responsible breeders that just purchased a couple dogs and bred them together and had that lead to success...it just isn't that easy. It is truly one of those things that success is directly proportional to how much effort you invest.

[tanza]

@LiLi:

Well, I just want to breed sweet socialized basenjis that's all. I do want money for the baby's I would be breeding, because if I said free, they'd go to god knows whos home. I mean, yeah, I would screen the people first, but if a dog is free you have a better chance of liars coming to get a free dog, than somebody who has the money to buy a puppy, and take care of it.

I've had my Li Ra (a rescue basenji-x puppy), for over a year now. She's just friggin' awesome.

I would of course take my puppy's back, if something happened and the people could'nt afford the dog anymore, or something like that happened. I don't intend to be a bad breeder at all, I just love the breed and want to breed them, my intentions for breeding are nothing but good.

I am worried about how many litters a female basenji dog can produce before it becomes too painful, or too much for her to do anymore. For me, that's just not acceptable, you can't have one breeding female basenji. It's just not right and fair to the dog.

I intended to get at least two litters out of a female basenji and then have her fixed and placed in a forever home. I don't care if it took a year, as long as it's a stable loving home for her.

I've converted our garage into a sterile environment, for the puppies, and plan to put some little kids furniture out there, and turn it into an awesome play house just their size.

I just don't know who to buy a healthy male from or female, I won't buy a puppy off of the internet ( just google basenjis for sale ) or at a pet store. I thought maybe a good breeder here could tell me how to go about this.

I'm looking for a male and female who have a clean family history, and who's parents have good mental health, socialized, etc.

I may be new to breeding, but so was everyone else here, when they had first started out. I could just start breeding any two basenji's tomorrow, and not care or test them and sell them, but I'm not.

"Basenji breeders in the U.S. charge between $500 and $850" - tanzabasenjis.com for a "companion" dog. So, you're telling me that you haven't made any proffit off of any of your puppy's, that you've "sold", when you pay for medical tests, food, shelter, etc ?

How is supposedly "giving away" basenji's you breed, making the breed better?

I don't see the problem here, if there is one.

I have never ever made a profit, I was lucky to cover the cost of raising a litter "properly"…. I didn't give away puppies... and again, responisble breeders do not make money, period!

[tanza]

@LiLi:

Wow, I'll just end this here, sift through the mass idiotic spam and get what little information most of you have given me and go elsewhere. Can't beleive a breeding forum has this many rude and uninformed people on it.

Awesome information to a new breeder, the posts provided except ivoss's were really unhelpful.

As stated this is really not a breeding forum… but Basenji lovers that happen to have a few breeders as members. I am not sure why you say "uninformed" people... we are telling you our experiences and that fact that responsible breeders do not make money from their puppies, nor is that the reason they breed.... I am not sure why you think the responses are spam? Here is another link to the cost of a litter http://www.geocities.com/rugosab/Prices.htm
This webpage was done a few years ago, so you can add to the prices listed…. as you can see, we do sell our pups, but in the end, we do not do it for the money, we figure if we break even, we have done well... but often that is not the case.

[lvoss]

This sort of got buried in my last post and I want to make sure it is noticed by anyone who may come along this thread because they think they may want to breed.

When I got my first basenji, long before I ever even thought about breeding, I was told that anyone who was even thinking that they may want to breed should first put in hours as a rescue volunteer. There are many things that rescue needs help with such as home visits, dog evaluations, transport, and of course fosters. I think that this is sound advice and the breeders that I know and consider responsible have all put in hours volunteering for rescue. Anyone who is going to bring a puppy into this world needs to have an understanding of the current pet overpopulation problem and why dogs are ending up homeless. There are many people who do not understand the numbers of purebred dogs that end up in shelters and rescue. I am sure that Sharron is better able to provide current numbers for BRAT. If you don't know why dogs end up in rescue then you can not do anything to prevent your puppies from becoming one of them. Even the most responsible breeder, if they have been doing it long enough will have pups returned because life happens and sometimes even the best of homes becomes completely overwhelmed by their situation. But the responsible breeder is that pup's safety net no matter what age. There are way too many dogs of all breeds that have no safety net and I think that getting out there and seeing how those dogs ended up where they did is a really important part of the research and education process for anyone thinking about breeding.

[sharronhurlbut]

You might not believe this, but we are trying to give you good information.
Breeding dogs is something that good breeders take very seriously.
They do their homework.
They show their dogs and they have quality puppys with the best health possible.
I seldom see these dogs in rescue, and when I do, these breeds do what it take to get them back into the home they were born into.
I do see a lot of puppies/dogs from folks who think they can make money selling dogs.
They don't the health testing and the homework to find the right sire/dam to create quality puppies.
They just put 2 dogs together and sell the pups.
I am hopeful your wanting to become one of the quality folks.
We have many show breeders here to would help you learn to do this breeding right…and you will be welcomed to share and learn and tell us how its going.
If your not going to do your homework, just going to do it, find 2 dogs and breed puppies, please think again.
I have done rescue too long to be anything but sad and upset if someone who is smart and can do better, doesn't...

[ComicDom1]

@sharronhurlbut:

You might not believe this, but we are trying to give you good information.
Breeding dogs is something that good breeders take very seriously.
They do their homework.
They show their dogs and they have quality puppys with the best health possible.
I seldom see these dogs in rescue, and when I do, these breeds do what it take to get them back into the home they were born into.
I do see a lot of puppies/dogs from folks who think they can make money selling dogs.
They don't the health testing and the homework to find the right sire/dam to create quality puppies.
They just put 2 dogs together and sell the pups.
I am hopeful your wanting to become one of the quality folks.
We have many show breeders here to would help you learn to do this breeding right…and you will be welcomed to share and learn and tell us how its going.
If your not going to do your homework, just going to do it, find 2 dogs and breed puppies, please think again.
I have done rescue too long to be anything but sad and upset if someone who is smart and can do better, doesn't...

Sharron, lets not forget those irresponsible people that are breeding (Mutts) (cough) designer dogs. It makes me shutter to think that one day I might wake up and discover some one is selling Basenjipoo's, all because they just wanted to either see what would happen, or wanted a basenji with curly hair.

Jason

[sharronhurlbut]

Oh, my heavens…my worst nightmare!
I so hope the public can become informed the these mutts with good pr...
shudder...

[ComicDom1]

@sharronhurlbut:

Oh, my heavens…my worst nightmare!
I so hope the public can become informed the these mutts with good pr...
shudder...

Why Sharron, I would think you would be first in line for a Basenjidoodle:eek:

Jason

[sharronhurlbut]

You are a bad young man! laugh..get to work..its mon and you shouldn't be bothering an old broad like me…grin.

[Eli_and_Me]

Hmmm….a curly tail with a little poof ball at the end?

[sharronhurlbut]

A tall curley coated dog that screams, barks and needs constant grooming, and doesn't mind…

You all are very, very bad!
laugh...