I cannot imagine committing to buy a puppy without seeing the animal and if possible the sire and dam. OTOH, a rescue (or adoption of an older dog) is a different thing. My last two Basenjis came to me sight unseen, and turned out to be wonderful dogs, but the breeders I got them from wanted to place their dogs in an experienced Basenji home, and I only paid the cost of getting the dogs to me. One came by air, one was personally transported to me by his breeder. If she hadn't been happy with what she found I expect she would have taken him back with her when she left. I also had to commit to return him if ever I couldn't keep him. Good breeders care about where their dogs end up.
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If keeping him intact is a "guy thing", my husband can attest that it doesn't make any difference. Years ago we had 3 brothers that we kept intact (never bred, but what a pain at times!) because Don didn't want to 'clip' the boys. When we got Topper he was still intact and stayed that way till he was 5, and he started getting really grumpy at the park, I put my foot down and got him neutered, and in a couple of weeks he was his normal self. When we got Ed, I took him right away to get neutered and he hardly even noticed! I know neither of my boys will get testicular cancer, or kidney failure from prostate hypertrophy. So if is a 'guy thing', give it some thought, it is a very minor surgery and it will bother you more than the dog!
It's not to make life easier, it is to keep the dog healthier!
Anne in TampaAnne…. Amen to that and thanks for posting that.....
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I was planning on showing Medjai. NOT for breeding purposes, but to get experience, and get used to the ring.
BUT, the way everyone is ganging up, I feel left with two options, 1) Neuter Medjai now, so that I can join the BCOA and get a bitch from a good breeder as early as next year, and 2) Not neuter Medjai, so that I can show him and get used to the ring, and not join the BCOA until I run into an issue with Medjai that will be eased by me getting him neutered.
By the way, with everyone ganging up like this (on here, and through e-mails I've received) you are making the statement, that unless you spay/neuter all tested affected Basenjis, you will not be able to purchase a good animal from a responsible breeder to show/possibly breed or become a member of the BCOA. That being said, with that stance, you may as well extend it to all carriers too, as there is Little reason to breed a carrier when there are so many clear basenjis out there.
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I don't think anyone who's commented here wants to gang up or even create "sides". They're plainly laying out for you how they receive this situation and probably hoping you'll learn from it. I believe they want you on their "side". I don't know much about how one goes about getting started in breeding but I imagine that for the first few years it's all about being open to learning from a breeder who has more experience and is willing to help you. Regarding affected vs. carrier, breeding a carrier is not ideal for obvious reasons, however, clear x carrier will still produce 50% less carriers than affected x clear.
Can't you show and collect Medjai and fix him before getting the bitch? It sounds like you have some time before getting her.
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I was planning on showing Medjai. NOT for breeding purposes, but to get experience, and get used to the ring.
BUT, the way everyone is ganging up, I feel left with two options, 1) Neuter Medjai now, so that I can join the BCOA and get a bitch from a good breeder as early as next year, and 2) Not neuter Medjai, so that I can show him and get used to the ring, and not join the BCOA until I run into an issue with Medjai that will be eased by me getting him neutered.
By the way, with everyone ganging up like this (on here, and through e-mails I've received) you are making the statement, that unless you spay/neuter all tested affected Basenjis, you will not be able to purchase a good animal from a responsible breeder to show/possibly breed or become a member of the BCOA. That being said, with that stance, you may as well extend it to all carriers too, as there is Little reason to breed a carrier when there are so many clear basenjis out there.
There are many reason to breed a carrier (to a clear only) and there could be reason to breed use sperm from an affected male (note that I said using a male only, I would never ever consider using a bitch that was shown as affected)… We have a limited gene pool and we have almost as many carriers as clears and as long as you then test those pups and if any are used for breeding you go again to a clear. It is easy in one generation to get back to clear. Obviously if there was a reason to use an affected male to a clear, you would get all carriers, but then you go to clears with that offspring and you can still get back to all clears.
BUT again as said before... you have to look at the dog and what does that dog have to offer the breed?
Learning to show should not be a reason to keep your boy in tact, especially for health reasons with being DNA for Fanconi... at least not IMO.... -
You are far from the only one with that opinion Pat. I just see things much differently from a lot of people here, as I'm sure you're aware.
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That is true, but you really are putting a health risk of your boy to the fore front… and with really no good reason for doing so... other then he is healthly now... he is not show quality (and sorry to say that without seeing current pictures, but the ones you posted just when you got him were pretty clear)... and you yourself note that he is undersized...
And other then the show ring, that is the only thing that he is restricted from competed in.. you could still lure course, do obedience, agility...And honestly, you will have a hard time every finding a responsible breeder that will place a bitch with you... and also many responsible breeder require a co-ownership on dogs/bitches that might be bred...
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Yes I am having a hard time, but I still believe it's possible, and I don't need to have full ownership of the dog right now. In the future, I would like to fully own a breeding pair of good, healthy, dogs to breed and continue to further the basenji, but it's not necessary now.
There are over 1,100 members on here, but only a couple hundred are active, and I think that is due to the major difference of opinions that people have. I just am willing to fight long and hard for my opinions.
And I apologize first for the people this may offend, but I do see there as being much more of an elitist attitude among the community of responsible basenji breeders that I don't see in many other breeds' breeders.
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Yes I am having a hard time, but I still believe it's possible, and I don't need to have full ownership of the dog right now. In the future, I would like to fully own a breeding pair of good, healthy, dogs to breed and continue to further the basenji, but it's not necessary now.
There are over 1,100 members on here, but only a couple hundred are active, and I think that is due to the major difference of opinions that people have. I just am willing to fight long and hard for my opinions.
And I apologize first for the people this may offend, but I do see there as being much more of an elitist attitude among the community of responsible basenji breeders that I don't see in many other breeds' breeders.
It may help to remember that the opinions of the breeders and long-time owners/showers on the list are borne of years and years of experience and experiences.
They have learned what it takes to produce healthy, quality dogs; they have seen the results of spay/neuter vs not spay/neuter, accidental breedings, behavioral difficulties. They have been through years of learning the ins and outs of Basenji physical and mental health.Not to knock your efforts or opinions, but you are only 21 and this is your first Basenji. Might not hurt to not form your opinions in concrete just yet, but to let education, experience,and time form them more fully.
Responsible breeders of any breed care deeply and are passionate about their breed and the practices that accompany breeding. If you run into breeders that are not, you may want to look elsewhere to find a quality program.
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Other breeds aren't dealing with Fanconi and while not everyone shares the same viewpoint, I think everyone agrees that within a few generations this disease can and should be eradicated from the breed.
While your opinion differs and you have a right to that opinion and what you do with your dog, remember that you always have to deal with the consequences of your actions.
If it's a guy thing…you really should get over it. If you want to show Medjai and he isn't show quality, my question is why spend the time and money to get nowhere? It costs more then a few dollars and you aren't going to get all the experience you need from one or two times in the ring. It's an ongoing learning process and each dog will be different. Why a female as your next dog? Why not start with a show quality male? There shouldn't be a need to rush into breeding any dogs of any breed.
I really don't think you'll EVER find a good breeder out there that will give an unknown person a breeding bitch with a "probably" affected intact male that was purchased from a backyard breeder. That's just the way it is. You need to sit back and think of what it is you want and may have to change your way of thinking to get it.
And that's just my opinion!
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thanks for all your thoughts, back from the phone. I was looking to get a female because they should be a year or two older than the male to mate, and at least with my parents huskies, an older female gets along better with a younger male than vice verse.
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I do believe the bitches should be around 3 before they're bred…someone correct me if I'm wrong on the age.. but they can mate with an older dog.
As far as getting along...Although a different breed, my first vizsla, a female was younger then Dakota, my first b, a male and they got along..were best buddies in fact. Marlowe came after Shawn died young with Dakota, then 9 and they were fine. Chey had Marlowe, then 3 and Dakota 12 , and they all did fine. Apache came in with Chey 2 and Marlowe 5, and except for Apache getting a bit snotty with Marlowe on occasion they all get along fine. I think that all has to do in how you introduce them and deal with any problems that may arise.
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Most responsible breeders will wait till the bitch is 3 to breed, they have to be at least 2 to have the hips done… and most breeders look for an older male to breed to... at least I do... I don't want in my breeding dogs that are only 5 or 6 yrs old in the first three generations... I like to see age... shows health... My one litter was sired by a 14 yr old... and while one of my litters the sire and dam were the same age of 4, their parents were older at 7 and (sire died at 16) on the bitch side and on the sire side I think it was like 9 and 11
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Yes I am having a hard time, but I still believe it's possible, and I don't need to have full ownership of the dog right now. In the future, I would like to fully own a breeding pair of good, healthy, dogs to breed and continue to further the basenji, but it's not necessary now.
There are over 1,100 members on here, but only a couple hundred are active, and I think that is due to the major difference of opinions that people have. I just am willing to fight long and hard for my opinions.
And I apologize first for the people this may offend, but I do see there as being much more of an elitist attitude among the community of responsible basenji breeders that I don't see in many other breeds' breeders.
And you think that is a bad thing? That Basenji breeders take breeding seriously? And being a responsible breeder is a bad thing? Elitist how? because responsible breeders believe in health testing and not just selling puppies on open registration to just anyone? I think that if you really found responsible breeders in every breed you will find the same concerns and the same attitudes. In every breed you can find BYB's and responsible breeders…
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I do so hope you listen to what these breeders are telling you.
I don't see it as picking on your or being elitist.
I think they are trying to help you learn.
Hope you see that this boy might be wonderful for you, but not an asset to the basenji breed as a whole.
I am not a breeder, but I love my dogs and I know you feel the same way.
I really think you need to get to meet some of the breeder in your area and see what they can teach you.
We all had to start somewhere and learn.
I would assume when you breed your litter with your name on them, you would want the very best quality basenjis you can produce.
That will take time and learning… -
I'm very stubborn, but trying to listen and take in criticisms. I know medjai is probably not an asset to the breed. At least, he's not good to be bred, he is great for helping show people the breed though.
I am also not planning on breeding in the next couple years, but because I would like to breed in the future, I would like to get better quality dogs next, instead of simply other dogs from Medjai's breeder's other dogs with different lines.
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Again, I am not a breeder but this seems very smart to me, your not wanting to get another dog who might not be the standard to show and breed.again, no offense to your current basenji.
It seems to me that breeding needs to be done with the best of the best re dogs and bitches.
Not the most popular, as this has been big trouble in the past, but the lines of health and movement that complement your dog and blood lines.
I never felt I had the smarts or skill to become a breeder, so I do rescue and I do love to help dogs.
I am looking forward to seeing you show your quality dogs ringside, in the future.
Its just time and learning… -
Michael, accidents happen, and if you really care about the Basenji Breed then you would step up and do the right thing. You would neuter your dog to prevent the possiblity that Fanconi could be passed on to another. I know you think you can control things, but the reality of life is that you can only control yourself and your behavior. Ask yourself, could your parents control you?
If you really want to learn to show dogs, then your best path to doing so, is to attend as many shows as you can, and talk to both handlers and owners. You would surprised what you can learn, just by watching and talking to others. Also someone might take you under their wing and teach you what you really need to know.
All of what you have said so far, makes me wonder if this is more about your personal desires than anything else.
What is wrong with you just loving your dog? If you do love your dog and the breed, then you just might be extending his life, and protecting the breed by having him neutered.
Jason
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Michael, accidents happen, and if you really care about the Basenji Breed then you would step up and do the right thing. You would neuter your dog to prevent the possiblity that Fanconi could be passed on to another. I know you think you can control things, but the reality of life is that you can only control yourself and your behavior. Ask yourself, could your parents control you?
If you really want to learn to show dogs, then your best path to doing so, is to attend as many shows as you can, and talk to both handlers and owners. You would surprised what you can learn, just by watching and talking to others. Also someone might take you under their wing and teach you what you really need to know.
All of what you have said so far, makes me wonder if this is more about your personal desires than anything else.
What is wrong with you just loving your dog? If you do love your dog and the breed, then you just might be extending his life, and protecting the breed by having him neutered.
Jason
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Michael,
In the end it is really about the dog.. pure and simple…. you have a dog that is DNA tested as affected... chances are 99% at some point he will have Fanconi.... the best you can do for him at this point is to make his life as easy as possible. By neutering him now is to lessen the stress on him... and help to keep him as stress free and healthly as possible.. for as long as you can.If you are interested in getting something to breed at some point.... hook up with a breeder now... spend the time and effort to learn about conformation, showing and breeding... with a mentor.... many of us have mentored people.. and personally I love doing it... and that is not to say that someone has to believe in exactly what I think might be the "perfect" Basenji... but in the end.. health is something we can all agree on...
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Michael,
In the end it is really about the dog.. pure and simple…. you have a dog that is DNA tested as affected... chances are 99% at some point he will have Fanconi.... the best you can do for him at this point is to make his life as easy as possible. By neutering him now is to lessen the stress on him... and help to keep him as stress free and healthly as possible.. for as long as you can.If you are interested in getting something to breed at some point.... hook up with a breeder now... spend the time and effort to learn about conformation, showing and breeding... with a mentor.... many of us have mentored people.. and personally I love doing it... and that is not to say that someone has to believe in exactly what I think might be the "perfect" Basenji... but in the end.. health is something we can all agree on...
