Hey eeeefarm, read that article you shared via link…..very interesting and enlightening! when one reads about spindle cells and the amygdala, one has to consider emotions to some degree in animals across the board! don't know about trees etc....???? 'nother forum ????
Basenji Growling & Aggression
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I can't relate at all or know anything about this kinda aggression, but has there been any sort of change in your B's life? And do you know for certain that he is healthy? I ask that because maybe he doesn't feel good and is protecting himself.
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Has anyone ever used one of the squirty collars? Tone, 2 tones, puff of (odourless, not citron) gas. Butu seemed to be doing very well with it, but it doesn't seem to be very robust…
it may work well with Butu, but there are so many forms of aggression and sometimes positive punishment makes it much worse…..
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well, pertaining to the bed scenario as I can relate one instance when Uzie was in bed with us, the hubby came back from a bathroom trip, and Uzie growled from deep in the chest and got louder as John yelled. I was so stunned, and the only thing I could think of to do as I was half asleep and with instinct flowing, I lifted the covers so he was 'thrown' ONTO THE CARPET….! because it sounded like a bite was about to occur (really scarey!) and he was pushing his envelope to see who was going to win over the resource or to get his way-whatever his mind and bossy adolescence (he was 20months old) attitude was about. It totally never happened again. All winter he was fine in bed with us, no growlies no more! Even though dogs are neutered/spayed the hormones still rage as they become pre-adults. The ages of 12-18 months they will start to see how far they can 'push everyone around' and get their way. The attitude with the nail trimming issues is kinda the same, and hard to give advice on this because there may be pre-existing emotions from you or him as the foot or his body is picked up for the trim/shampoo. You may have read that you have to let the Basenji think it was his/her idea to do IT. Using your imagination, his particular drive (food/toy/praise), and patience, maybe you can come up with something. I know it is heartbreaking when you love them and have done everything possible to form them into the best possible companion, then this happens. Try to ignore him for a few days straight. Close your door at night, let him come 'running' back to you like the prodical son! Just no greetings when you come home, no eye contact, no love sounds, (it ain't going to be easy!!!) no interaction for a few days, even if he jumps next to you on the couch, get up and leave. I learn from watching dogs with dogs. Uzie got real humble with Candi as she gets up from the bed when he lays ON her..... Not withstanding the comment that you should make sure he is not hurting somewhere, and take him for a blood work up to rule out bad behavior with some health issue, thyroid upset is directly associated with some aggressions. http://www.ehow.com/about_5333151_hypothyroidism-aggression-dogs.html
http://itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-BEHV-THYROID.HTM keep us posted! -
Please be sure to have his health reviewed and for certain have A FULL THYROID panel done… Low normal for Basenjis is too low. Thyroid issues can add and/or be the cause of aggression.
Have you talked to his breeder? However, since you took him home at 7 wks, I am not thinking that the breeder is a responsible one.
Sleeping in bed ENDS period... first growl/snap and it is on the floor....
I do not agree with the method of training, Basenjis do not do well with aggressive training methods. I would suggest you find a behaviorist.
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I do not agree with the method of training, Basenjis do not do well with aggressive training methods. I would suggest you find a behaviorist.
Hey Tanza, I respect all your replies, but what "aggressive training method" are you referring to? I agree with getting a behaviorist because they are trained to watch body language in full context in regards to the situation and with regards to the dogs' personality.
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I'm going to weigh in here, knowing that many will not agree, but in my experience Basenjis will "try it on", particularly when they don't want to do something or it makes them uncomfortable. How you react may well have a big influence on their future behaviour. I much prefer to finesse things when I can, but I am not going to make the mistake of letting my dog back me down. You lose respect in their eyes, and it is far harder to regain it once lost. I will take a bite if necessary, and I won't beat up on the dog (any more! when I was younger, it was a different world), but I will restrain him until he quits growling or being aggressive. Submission = release. I don't recommend this approach unless you are confident and won't get rattled. If you are unsure, get professional help or put the dog on a "nothing in life is free" regimen.
I second the idea of getting a medical assessment and particularly the thyroid checked, as that could be the underlying problem.
A lot of problems with dogs (particularly Basenjis!) can be avoided if you are observant. These moments may feel like they "come out of nowhere", but there is usually a context to them. Watch their eyes, A Basenji that is displeased will usually signal his unhappiness by hardening his gaze. It is very noticeable if you are paying attention. To avoid confrontation, you can change your approach. Most are open to cajoling and flattery, but when push comes to shove, you may need to make it crystal clear who is in charge. IMO, no place on your dog's body should be off limits to your touch, but you do need to be sure that what you are doing is not causing pain. (hence a medical assessment).
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@Buddys:
I do not agree with the method of training, Basenjis do not do well with aggressive training methods. I would suggest you find a behaviorist.
Hey Tanza, I respect all your replies, but what "aggressive training method" are you referring to? I agree with getting a behaviorist because they are trained to watch body language in full context in regards to the situation and with regards to the dogs' personality.
Aggressive and using a Prong collar…. that is aggressive and most trainers that train Police dogs.. do NOT use calming training methods or ones that do not use force... Basenjis are NOT police dogs... and should not be considered as one... While this Basenji might be dominate... there are better ways to overcome... and sounds to me like the home has let this boy become the "head of the house"..
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Aggressive and using a Prong collar….
on a 9 month old puppy.
I would suggest some books by Leslie McDivett, Ian Dunbar or Patricia McConnell. All of these author's advocate largely positive training methods.
Also look at Dr Overall's Relaxation Protocol.
http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/OverallRelaxationProtocol.pdf -
[QUOTE/]Basenjis are NOT police dogs… and should not be considered as one... While this Basenji might be dominate... there are better ways to overcome... and sounds to me like the home has let this boy become the "head of the house"..
-ok. I know my Basenji is NOT a Police dog, and I NEVER considered him one so please, your post sound a little rude… the guy is very well known in my area and I have taken other breeds of dogs there and they became Canine Good Citizens for our area, so I know this trainer does well, maybe not for a basenji but obviously I did not realize that or I would have never spent the money for the class! I do not agree with "treat" training either, I do not want an obese dog, and not only that but he is not a "gobbler" for treats. YES I've tried a behaviorist as well, a vet that works with dog behaviors. He is completely healthy and has his little physicals on the regular.
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Has he had a full Thyroid panel done? A Vet saying completely health doesn't address a possible thyroid problem… only a full panel will tell you that... and that is the first step.
Sorry if you think that I was rude... but Basenjis are not "other" breeds... and training with treats would not make a dog obese... don't understand why you would thing that?.... and for training, you can replace a meal with treats during training if that is a concern. And if not a "gobbler" for treats, you need to find "special" treats that make him a "gobbler" for treats...
But again... if acting out in the bed with biting/growling... he needs to be kicked out of the bed... period... or any other place that he is trying to claim as his own...
Again, have you talked to his breeder?
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Dear Red Hot Remington,
Tanza is speaking with a lot of truth and experience. The 'prong' should not be used on a Basenji or sight hound, small dog period. Police use it from the school that started from having to train dogs FAST for Vietnam…. The prong and choke is a 'tool' and walking a dog should be a team effort where the dog wants to be at your side from training with respect from both parties (both ends of the leash) not due to intimidation-why do you suppose these tools are not allowed in the CGC test, service dogs, therapy dog test etc..... or pain It is not an instant performance as the walk comes from many hours of relationship 'training'. There are the books as mentioned from agilebasenji- the trainer may be respected in your community because the dogs 'learn' obedience from the prong etc. But he/she should really adjust techniques per the dogs' temperament etc. Not one way always.....ps: she didn't sound rude, please read all with an open mind. and treats given as reward do not make a dog fat. I always break the high value piece into halves-the smaller the piece the faster it is eaten and the more effective the reward. one does not rely on treats for the rest of the dog's life either. Just to make an impact in the early stages of training.....do consider the thyroid panel for ruling out any health problems.
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Okay I have taken a few deep breaths… and now going to weigh in.
That you took her response as rude and jumped into defending the trainer gives me an idea nothing anyone says unless it is in line with what you want to hear is going to get any consideration. So in my best Dr Phil tone... I'd like to ask... how's that working for you so far?
I don't have issues with prong collars and dogs that need something to give you a better handle.. say .. 100 pound plus dogs. But it is a tool, not a general training device, for leash walking. I don't care how many people this person trains dogs for, that doesn't make them good, or a good fit for your dog. Ceasar Milan has a following and he is an abusive dangerous person. Sadly, most people who need trainers do because they don't understand training... so they can't really tell if what is happening is right. I am begging you to read some of the books suggested.
Basenjis are smart. You train punitively, and they will take you on or shut down. You say you don't like treats as you don't want a fat dog... and you can take this as rudely as you like, but that's just utterly silly! You don't give a huge amt of treat! You can give TINY treats, low fat treats, anything and cut back a bit on meals to compensate. If you go with clicker training, you can eventually remove treats and just use the clicker noise. Good training, whether it is your child, dog, goldfish, rabbit, horse or whatever--you get results when you understand what motivates them and USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. Most dogs are motivated by food. Be smart, use it.
Get back to basics. Pretend the dog just came. Nothing in life is free is the way to start. No bed, period. Let sleep in a crate in the same room or on floor, but bed is off until all this is solidly taken care of. Some dogs can NEVER have bed privileges because it triggers bad behaviors. I am happy to say so far in my life only one dog fit that for me, but from 18 mos til he died, if he got on the bed, his lip came up.
Get a good basket muzzle and use it for nail clipping if you have to, but also work on retraining. http://www.clickerlessons.com/nails.htm
You said healthy.. but what blood work has been done. As pointed out, thyroid can cause some aggressive behaviors. Hopefully it is fine and what you are seeing is a dog maturing and really testing his limits. How you respond is going to set your life with him. Make this into a matter of domination instead of training and it won't go well. And that, not rudeness, is what folks were trying to say. I hope you step back, start at the beginning and reread in that spirit. It is truly a waste to come for help with folks like Pat who are overflowing with knowledge and experience and ignore them, depending instead on someone who may or may not have a CLUE about this breed and who seemingly imagines that you have to train hard for hard dogs… when the opposite is proved in training all the time. The positive trainer can get any dog to do more and better than the force trainer every single time. I suggest to you that any dog that cannot be trained in a positive way is probably unstable and not pet material. Positive may take a bit longer.. but it works, it works better, it makes your relationship with your dog better.
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm a good rundown of Nothing in Life is free.
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@red:
I do not agree with "treat" training either, I do not want an obese dog, and not only that but he is not a "gobbler" for treats. YES I've tried a behaviorist as well, a vet that works with dog behaviors. He is completely healthy and has his little physicals on the regular.
What exactly do you know about "treat training"? Operant conditioning, aka "clicker training" in dog circles, is based in science. I've managed to train several basenjis (and other nonbasenjis) using clicker training, 2 master level agility basenjis, Digital the brindlewonderkid had over 30 titles to his name. And as long as I don't overfeed, I don't have fat dogs. (in fact, Digital was often indifferent to food.)
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… but the training at home has been inconsistent.
In your post, this stood out for me. Training HAS to be consistent. Basenjis require lots of patience when training. Stay calm and do try to get together a consistent training routine. For Kipawa and I, training 5 times a day, for no more than 5 minutes at a time works well (it continues to work well for us).
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@red:
he suggested a prong collar
Prong collars. Oh dear.
I'm not a fan of them. When I see someone walking a dog that wears a prong collar, all I think about is whether the owner is substituting a prong collar for well directed training. However, in training police dogs, maybe it's a good choice? I just don't know.Has your basenji had a full medical with full blood work/thyroid check? He seems to be reacting to a number of things, which makes me think that there could be a medical issue.
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Prong collars. Oh dear.
I'm not a fan of them. When I see someone walking a dog that wears a prong collar, all I think about is whether the owner is substituting a prong collar for well directed training. However, in training police dogs, maybe it's a good choice? I just don't know.I think prong collars can be a useful tool with a large dog that doesn't listen. I believe they are a better option than a choke collar, as they are a "martingale" style, and the prongs should be an automatic correction. Unfortunately, a lot of dogs learn to ignore the discomfort and lean on the collar anyway, if the handler does not use it correctly.
Basenjis certainly will ignore discomfort and pull, especially if they see something that excites them. Yes, you can sort this with various methods, target training, etc. but many will revert when excited. I like a wide "hound collar" for control without much risk of injury, since with the width of the collar the pressure is well spread out. In some situations you just have to make the dog behave, and I refuse to allow my boy to lean on the collar, so it is pull and release until he figures it out. (A slack leash will allow you forward motion, a taut one will not, and may indeed result in a backwards retreat from whatever is attractive to you!) I think flex leashes are a terrible invention, as they teach the dog to pull! A dog aggressive dog on a walk can be challenging to deal with when other dogs are encountered, and you do have to be able to control him. At least Basenjis are small! (I would hate to have to deal with 100 pounds of Basenji "attitude"!)
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hi eeeefarm - valid comments that are great food for thought. Thanks for your response. That's why this forum is a great place to learn about 'all things basenji'. And yes, those wide hound collars are superb. We got a couple of them a couple of years back and we still use them.
Must say, reading your response comment/signature line, after some time away from the forum, made me smile. How true is that!
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Question…
If I'm not supposed to yell or say no, what can I do when he's barking/being aggressive towards someone? How can I break through the current behavior in order to get to something that I can positively reward?
Thanks!
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To break any sort of undesired concentration, I make a neutral, but startling sound–like a hard clap or a stomp. Getting their attention in the middle of any kind of highly self-rewarding behavior can be really difficult. Ideally you want to be able to spot the signals that he's about to feel aggressive, so you can distract him with something positively rewarding (instructions to follow and reward for accomplishment), and continue to reward him for maintaining attention to his work through the distraction.
The earlier you spot the signals, the easier it gets to interrupt the cycle. When you can spot the situations that might trigger him before he does, and set up positive situations, eventually the hope is he'll associate the trigger with looking to you for instruction and reward.
The trick is making looking to you more rewarding than getting amped up over the trigger. Getting amped up is powerfully rewarding. Good luck. There is some great information in this thread. -
Hi All. Very helpful thread. Thanks to all for all the ideas shared here. I know this is quite a standard situation, but still would like to share this and ask for any advice: I have a 5 years old male Basenji. He is not neutered. Since I brought him home (when he was 5 months old), he has never been good with other male dogs (not neutered, with those who are neutered he is totally fine - treat them as females :)), and it is still the same. After living for a year or so with my parents away from me, it got worse: growling, biting, jumping on other male dogs (and the bigger the dog is, the more excited/angry he gets). I know where all this comes from: feeding him from the table when the people are eating, allowing him to sleep on the bed together with people). Now he is with me again. I am working on correcting at least these mistakes in his behaviour, as well trying to distract him when he starts to growl at the dog approaching. Meanwhile can you please advise whether it is at all possible to change the dog's behaviour - to like other male dogs? Or shall I just admit that and try to prevent any such situations? Do you think a trainer can help with it?
Thank you very much!
