@jbuckee how are things now?
Basenji Growling & Aggression
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Yes, eeeefarm, I agree with the use of the e-training collar to be used in such events as hunting/retrieving etc, but not really for 'behavioral issues' where the dog is already reactive to a stimulus that 'it' perceives as threatening. The collar really does not give owner/trainer the necessary input for changing the dog's perception to the aversive stimulus as the collar is just that. It does have it's place, but for most emotional reactive dogs, Basenji's a little more so…..it should not be considered; my opinion. yes, there are magic workers out there for the dogs too! Thanks for your input on that!!!! PS: big YES on the comment concerning the owners understanding the subtle mode!
PS THE SUBTLE MODE BEING THE BUZZER OR VIBRATION AND/OR SOUND NOT THE 'SHOCK'-TO AID IN WHERE THE DUCK WAS DROPPED FOR INSTANCE.
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Well I disagree that there are legit uses for e-collars even in hunting. Since other countries and most trainers here can train without them effectively, it's an unnecessary tool. Any trainer suggesting one for anything other than life-endangering issues (going after snakes and bees, rock eating, for example) isn't one I'd use. Period.
To the OP… well, dog aggression is normal. It really is in many breeds and many dogs. Instead of making your dog LIKE other dogs, why not simply and easily MANAGE it? Get a basket muzzle for walks or vet visits, etc. Your dog will never bite another dog. Ask people to keep their dogs away from your dog. Dogs are not little children who must learn to play with other kids. Your dog can have a full and happy life never interacting with another pet outside of your home.
Many basenji also are wary of strangers. You can work on that easily... go to a park with a helper. Have the helper give out treats. At first have strangers just pass by and toss one to him, not approaching. Have them slowly get closer. After a few times, have them come up to him and drop the treat, still not touching, for a few visits. Next, have them actually hold a hand out to give the treat in the palm of their hand. It won't take your dog long to associate strangers with GOOD. But a lot of dogs do not want several people at once, or anyone moving fast. In your home, crate him til visitors are in and seated, then let him make all the contact. Again, a small treat will help sooth the path so he comes to think visitors equal food/good.
We can control our dogs, we can limit bad responses by limiting the things that cause issues, we can train for many things but you cannot untrain animal-to-animal aggression. Only impressively uninformed people believe that it is ALL in how you train them. People like that get pit bulls and other dog/animal aggressive pets and end up with family and neighbor pets killed because they fail to grasp that there are genetic factors at work. I hosted on an APB board and rarely did a month, usually a week, pass when someone wasn't on there crying their pit killed the family cat/dog etc and how SHOCKED they were because the dog was 2 or 4 or even older and SUDDENLY "turned." No, they didn't "turn" they matured. Not all APB are animal aggressive, but enough are (and they are BRED FOR IT!) that only owners who acknowledge it, understand it and are ever vigilant for signs avoid tragedies. And while Basenji are not as animal aggressive in general as APB, you had better believe and understand it is NORMAL in the breed. Talk to 1000 owners and you'll find most who have or have owned a basenji that would fight at the drop of a hat with strange dogs and/or their own house mates. You will find massive amts who cannot let their OWN DOGS, who grew up together, out without a fight and must keep them separated. We don't euthanize (which is what will happen to your dog if you "return" it to the shelter and are honest about the dog aggression) them over their nature. We manage and control it so it isn't an issue.
And back to shock collars... sure they can work. I darn well guarantee you if I put one on my child I could make her clean her room. Does that mean that it is good, should be used, okay? No. Again, many countries have banned them and oh my gawd their dogs are still being trained, doing great. Clicker folks have proven research after research that you can do more better with a clicker than any shock collar. It is the need for fast and easy, not better, that leads people to them. In dire situations, we sometimes grasp for such things... myself included. But they are not "training tools" but desperation ones, rarely justified. And I'll be glad when we join other countries and ban them.
http://www.goodnewsforpets.com/Articles.asp?ID=147
Consensus of Veterinary Behaviorists: Never use a shock collar "Never, under any circumstances, choose a dog trainer who uses an electronic collar (shock collar)."http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/simply-wrong
Patricia McConnell: Simply Wrong
A PhD dog behavior expert explains in lay terms what can and does go wrong with devices that shock dogshttp://petprofessionalguild.com/shockcollars
Pet Professional Guild Position Statement on the Use of Shock Collars in Animal Training
This document both explains in very clear language the problems with shock collar training, and includes scholarly references.http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/overall_collars.pdf
Considerations for Shock and 'Training' Collars" Statement by eminent veterinary behaviorist Dr. Karen Overall about the use of shock collars.http://www.rottilounge.de/downloads/E_collar_Article.pdf
Clinical Signs Caused by the Use of Electric Training Collars on Dogs in Everyday Life Situations Research paper published in 2007. Conclusion: "We recommend that the use of these devices should be restricted with proof of theoretical and practical qualification required and then the use of these devices should only be allowed in strictly specified situations."http://www.humanespot.org/content/training-dogs-help-shock-collar-short-and-long-term-behavioural-effects
Training dogs with help of the shock collar: short and long term behavioural effects Research paper published in 2004. Conclusion: "The conclusions, therefore are, that being trained is stressful, that receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the S-dogs (dogs who were shocked) evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training context. This suggests that the welfare of these shocked dogs is at stake, at least in the presence of their owner." -
Some interesting articles there, Debra. Of course, most veterinarians are not dog trainers. I was surprised that the vets in the first link supported the use of "gentle leaders", since these are known to cause injury to dogs. They get used because people are unable to train their dogs not to pull. The second link also recommends them. My niece, who is a vet, has seem many neck injuries caused by these tools.
I do use an electronic collar. I use it for a very specific purpose…...to ensure a recall when my dog is loose......and I do not use it for training. Clicker training is faster and a lot more fun! So, I use the e collar for enforcement. Yes, it is an aversive. Funny thing, the way animals learn in nature is by both reward and punishment. They learn what actions bring them pleasure, and what actions bring them pain. The smart ones learn to avoid the pain and go on to live their lives and reproduce. Pain is nature's way of saying "don't do that again!" It is also society's way of saying "don't do that again!" At some point, both humans and animals are going to run up against an aversive.
From observation, I have learned that both horses and dogs are not slow to understand when their own actions cause them discomfort. They tend to avoid things that they find unpleasant, so for example, the sight of a temporary electric fence line dividing the pasture field keeps my horses in the area I would prefer them to graze. Since they know the consequences of touching the fence, they avoid doing that (while grazing within inches of it.) They show no fear of the fence. They know if they do not touch it there are no consequences.
This is the way "invisible" fence works with most (not all) dogs. Properly introduced, it causes no fear, but an understanding that ignoring the warning tone (instead of a visible fence) will result in an unpleasant experience.
The key to effective use of an electronic collar is in the introduction. Done correctly, the animal does not learn to fear it, but to respect it. The "anti shock collar" articles always describe inappropriate usage of the collar, and usually in as dramatic a fashion as possible. Of course, terminology is important here, which is why you will see the term "shock" used. The people on the pro side are also careful with their words, using "stimulation" instead of "shock", but if we can get past semantics what we are describing is a mild and momentary electric shock which can be adjusted over a wide range, from barely noticeable to downright painful.
I've said I don't use the e-collar for training. I have watched training sessions, and they are very low key. What I don't like, either with the e-collar or with conventional collars, is the constant "picking" at the dog. I guess I just don't like "formal" training. Straight sits and correct heeling position are irrelevant on a farm. I just need the dog to do what he's told, and if he stays in a down or sit position, it makes no difference to me, as long as he doesn't move from where I left him. But I do need to be able to interrupt any chasing, and to ensure he comes when I call him, and the e-collar is reliable for this purpose. I use it with my Basenji to keep him safe while allowing him the freedom to run in the fields. He does not fear the collar, although he is "collar wise" (knows the collar is what causes the discomfort, and knows I control the collar). He is happy to have it put on, because that means we are going out the back door to the fields, not out the front door on a leash. And if I tell him "leave it" and he ignores me, I give him a low level stim (shock, if you will), and he gives me a look that says "Oh, if you insist" and stops doing whatever he shouldn't be doing (eating excrement, or rolling in it, that kind of thing). In a normal day, I seldom have to do more than use a verbal reprimand, but if something unexpected occurs.....like the neighbour's cat or a skunk......I have the means to stop the chase. And yes, if he ignores my call I will dial it up and he will yelp and break off his chase and come back to me, and be just as calm and casual as he was before the incident. No more dramatic than if he ran into thistles, which also cause him to yipe. If this is cruelty, I think it is far less damaging than leaving a dog confined in a crate all day long, but that is another topic.
Incidentally, I would never have dreamed of using an e-collar on my Border Collie. But these dogs were bred for cooperative work with humans, and controlling them at a distance is in their genes. Not so much with Basenjis!
Does this look like a fearful, unhappy dog to you?
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Thanks, very insightful!
Looks like a happy camper to me… -
Thanks, very insightful!
Looks like a happy camper to me…Yep, sure does! Love that nose to nose with the big guy (gal)
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Has anyone ever used one of the squirty collars? Tone, 2 tones, puff of (odourless, not citron) gas. Butu seemed to be doing very well with it, but it doesn't seem to be very robust…
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My 7 month Basenji is kind of the same way. He fallows me like a shadow and makes sure he is always next to me. He loves my husband too, but im clearly his favorite. Every night, Cairo crawls into bed with me and falls asleep with me until my husband comes in and takes him into his crate. Then, when my husband leaves for work in the morning he lets Cairo back in bed with me. Whenever I am sick, my husband lets him sleep with us because Cairo makes me feel better. Everything has been amazing until Cairo snapped at my husband when trying to put him back in his crate after falling asleep with me 2 nights ago. It was a very very bad growl and bite as if he was a wild fox. I had surgery that night,so I am not sure if Cairo was protecting me or didn't want to be put in his crate because he is too comfortable in bed. Any thoughts?
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I'd guess he is getting tired of being moved from the comfortable bed and wants to stay there. Given his age, this will likely escalate. If you don't want him in bed, don't allow him to be there. And if you want to continue as you have been, spend some time training or leave a short leash on him so you can remove him easily. If he is food motivated you could teach him a cue like "crate time" that means he will get a reward when he goes to his crate.
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I have a lovely 3 year old basenji male that I have had since he was 7 weeks old, he was neutered at the youngest age he could be and we took him through basic obedience training at about 9 months old. A while ago when he was younger he bit me once while trying to give him a bath, he drew quite a bit of blood on that instance. That was prior to training, we used a trainer that is very well known in our area and trains most of the local police dogs, because of his attitude and not seeing me as a dominate person he suggested a prong collar. After that instance he has hardly ever shown severe aggression again… UNTIL NOW! Recently within the past several months (he has slept with us since he was 6 months old) he literally attacks our feet or legs in the middle of the night if we move, in an aggressive manner. He really hasn't been punished for it b/c we just fall back asleep and let it go. Next, let me say first that our B has NEVER shown aggression towards strangers or children, we socialized him from the get go, less then a month ago we stopped by a grooming shop for their grand opening, they were giving free nail trims. I usually do his nails myself and he has never had an issue. The groomer went to just pick him up and he jerked his head around and bit her, drawing blood on her hand. We didn't let that slide, she put a muzzle on him and continued. But it up set us terribly as we just handed him over knowing he has never done anything like that before. Also, last night we tried giving him a bath which he hasn't had a problem with since that one instance, as we were drying him off with towels which he usually likes, he went after our hands to bite us. Again today, I was going to trim his nails myself again like usual, however I tried and he went after my hand again, I couldn't even lift his foot without him snarling at me. I am worried because we truly love our dog more then anything, but this has to stop! PLEASE HELP!
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I can't relate at all or know anything about this kinda aggression, but has there been any sort of change in your B's life? And do you know for certain that he is healthy? I ask that because maybe he doesn't feel good and is protecting himself.
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Has anyone ever used one of the squirty collars? Tone, 2 tones, puff of (odourless, not citron) gas. Butu seemed to be doing very well with it, but it doesn't seem to be very robust…
it may work well with Butu, but there are so many forms of aggression and sometimes positive punishment makes it much worse…..
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well, pertaining to the bed scenario as I can relate one instance when Uzie was in bed with us, the hubby came back from a bathroom trip, and Uzie growled from deep in the chest and got louder as John yelled. I was so stunned, and the only thing I could think of to do as I was half asleep and with instinct flowing, I lifted the covers so he was 'thrown' ONTO THE CARPET….! because it sounded like a bite was about to occur (really scarey!) and he was pushing his envelope to see who was going to win over the resource or to get his way-whatever his mind and bossy adolescence (he was 20months old) attitude was about. It totally never happened again. All winter he was fine in bed with us, no growlies no more! Even though dogs are neutered/spayed the hormones still rage as they become pre-adults. The ages of 12-18 months they will start to see how far they can 'push everyone around' and get their way. The attitude with the nail trimming issues is kinda the same, and hard to give advice on this because there may be pre-existing emotions from you or him as the foot or his body is picked up for the trim/shampoo. You may have read that you have to let the Basenji think it was his/her idea to do IT. Using your imagination, his particular drive (food/toy/praise), and patience, maybe you can come up with something. I know it is heartbreaking when you love them and have done everything possible to form them into the best possible companion, then this happens. Try to ignore him for a few days straight. Close your door at night, let him come 'running' back to you like the prodical son! Just no greetings when you come home, no eye contact, no love sounds, (it ain't going to be easy!!!) no interaction for a few days, even if he jumps next to you on the couch, get up and leave. I learn from watching dogs with dogs. Uzie got real humble with Candi as she gets up from the bed when he lays ON her..... Not withstanding the comment that you should make sure he is not hurting somewhere, and take him for a blood work up to rule out bad behavior with some health issue, thyroid upset is directly associated with some aggressions. http://www.ehow.com/about_5333151_hypothyroidism-aggression-dogs.html
http://itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-BEHV-THYROID.HTM keep us posted! -
Please be sure to have his health reviewed and for certain have A FULL THYROID panel done… Low normal for Basenjis is too low. Thyroid issues can add and/or be the cause of aggression.
Have you talked to his breeder? However, since you took him home at 7 wks, I am not thinking that the breeder is a responsible one.
Sleeping in bed ENDS period... first growl/snap and it is on the floor....
I do not agree with the method of training, Basenjis do not do well with aggressive training methods. I would suggest you find a behaviorist.
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I do not agree with the method of training, Basenjis do not do well with aggressive training methods. I would suggest you find a behaviorist.
Hey Tanza, I respect all your replies, but what "aggressive training method" are you referring to? I agree with getting a behaviorist because they are trained to watch body language in full context in regards to the situation and with regards to the dogs' personality.
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I'm going to weigh in here, knowing that many will not agree, but in my experience Basenjis will "try it on", particularly when they don't want to do something or it makes them uncomfortable. How you react may well have a big influence on their future behaviour. I much prefer to finesse things when I can, but I am not going to make the mistake of letting my dog back me down. You lose respect in their eyes, and it is far harder to regain it once lost. I will take a bite if necessary, and I won't beat up on the dog (any more! when I was younger, it was a different world), but I will restrain him until he quits growling or being aggressive. Submission = release. I don't recommend this approach unless you are confident and won't get rattled. If you are unsure, get professional help or put the dog on a "nothing in life is free" regimen.
I second the idea of getting a medical assessment and particularly the thyroid checked, as that could be the underlying problem.
A lot of problems with dogs (particularly Basenjis!) can be avoided if you are observant. These moments may feel like they "come out of nowhere", but there is usually a context to them. Watch their eyes, A Basenji that is displeased will usually signal his unhappiness by hardening his gaze. It is very noticeable if you are paying attention. To avoid confrontation, you can change your approach. Most are open to cajoling and flattery, but when push comes to shove, you may need to make it crystal clear who is in charge. IMO, no place on your dog's body should be off limits to your touch, but you do need to be sure that what you are doing is not causing pain. (hence a medical assessment).
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@Buddys:
I do not agree with the method of training, Basenjis do not do well with aggressive training methods. I would suggest you find a behaviorist.
Hey Tanza, I respect all your replies, but what "aggressive training method" are you referring to? I agree with getting a behaviorist because they are trained to watch body language in full context in regards to the situation and with regards to the dogs' personality.
Aggressive and using a Prong collar…. that is aggressive and most trainers that train Police dogs.. do NOT use calming training methods or ones that do not use force... Basenjis are NOT police dogs... and should not be considered as one... While this Basenji might be dominate... there are better ways to overcome... and sounds to me like the home has let this boy become the "head of the house"..
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Aggressive and using a Prong collar….
on a 9 month old puppy.
I would suggest some books by Leslie McDivett, Ian Dunbar or Patricia McConnell. All of these author's advocate largely positive training methods.
Also look at Dr Overall's Relaxation Protocol.
http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/OverallRelaxationProtocol.pdf -
[QUOTE/]Basenjis are NOT police dogs… and should not be considered as one... While this Basenji might be dominate... there are better ways to overcome... and sounds to me like the home has let this boy become the "head of the house"..
-ok. I know my Basenji is NOT a Police dog, and I NEVER considered him one so please, your post sound a little rude… the guy is very well known in my area and I have taken other breeds of dogs there and they became Canine Good Citizens for our area, so I know this trainer does well, maybe not for a basenji but obviously I did not realize that or I would have never spent the money for the class! I do not agree with "treat" training either, I do not want an obese dog, and not only that but he is not a "gobbler" for treats. YES I've tried a behaviorist as well, a vet that works with dog behaviors. He is completely healthy and has his little physicals on the regular.
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Has he had a full Thyroid panel done? A Vet saying completely health doesn't address a possible thyroid problem… only a full panel will tell you that... and that is the first step.
Sorry if you think that I was rude... but Basenjis are not "other" breeds... and training with treats would not make a dog obese... don't understand why you would thing that?.... and for training, you can replace a meal with treats during training if that is a concern. And if not a "gobbler" for treats, you need to find "special" treats that make him a "gobbler" for treats...
But again... if acting out in the bed with biting/growling... he needs to be kicked out of the bed... period... or any other place that he is trying to claim as his own...
Again, have you talked to his breeder?
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Dear Red Hot Remington,
Tanza is speaking with a lot of truth and experience. The 'prong' should not be used on a Basenji or sight hound, small dog period. Police use it from the school that started from having to train dogs FAST for Vietnam…. The prong and choke is a 'tool' and walking a dog should be a team effort where the dog wants to be at your side from training with respect from both parties (both ends of the leash) not due to intimidation-why do you suppose these tools are not allowed in the CGC test, service dogs, therapy dog test etc..... or pain It is not an instant performance as the walk comes from many hours of relationship 'training'. There are the books as mentioned from agilebasenji- the trainer may be respected in your community because the dogs 'learn' obedience from the prong etc. But he/she should really adjust techniques per the dogs' temperament etc. Not one way always.....ps: she didn't sound rude, please read all with an open mind. and treats given as reward do not make a dog fat. I always break the high value piece into halves-the smaller the piece the faster it is eaten and the more effective the reward. one does not rely on treats for the rest of the dog's life either. Just to make an impact in the early stages of training.....do consider the thyroid panel for ruling out any health problems.
