Crate Saga part 2: Is it possible some Basenjis just can't be crated?

[JazzysMom]

@JazzysMom:

We finally have success with Keoki.
QUOTE]

yeah, so turned out this was a temporary thing, which I may have mentioned before already.

Somewhere on the forum I'd said that I recently was trying the CALM DOWN, herbal/alcochol liquid, which after a short time simply no longer works. Keoki is back to freaking out in the crate. After some days now of NO sleep - not even with me sitting there next to the crate – he just SCREAMS and whines and digs at the back and the door of the crate, I took him to the vet today.

I got DRUGS. A temporary solution, but I do hope it works. I also have an appt with their behaviorist on Wednesday afternoon to see if she can figure out what his triggers really are and what we can do about them. They don't like to use drugs long-term, but acknowledged that less than two hours of sleep total each night is also unacceptable. Dh and I are walking zombies.

I mean, I've tried whatever I know. Comfy bedding, treats, soft talk, feeding in the crate, treats in the crate, access to it whenever he wants so it's not just a "separation place", etc. Hopefully I'll get some good info and tips on Wednesday. This behaviorist did spend some time working with wolves, so I'm hopeful she has a good clue on the less domestic mind-sets too.

How are things going with your dog?

[torchsong]

She-Ra came from a pet store, so she was used to eating (and pooping) in her crate. We figured out pretty early that no crates were going to work for us. Resigned to that, we've done a pretty good job of puppy proofing our house, enforced rules as to what she can get away with and can't, and we don't mind her sleeping on the bed with us at night (hey, she's better than our cats!)

Some baby gates to keep her out of rooms you don't want her in (those with wires or valuables) work wonders. Bitter apple spray comes in handy as well.

[MaxBooBooBear]

@torchsong:

She-Ra came from a pet store, so she was used to eating (and pooping) in her crate. We figured out pretty early that no crates were going to work for us.

My last B came from a pet store, too–and I never could crate him. But I have an extra bedroom in my house with a dog door to the backyard, so it has worked well for my last two dogs (one B and one not), and my current two (father/daughter Bs).

[JazzysMom]

Keoki came from a good breeder, and was crated at their place. BUT, he was also with his siblings there. I'm sure that made a difference.

Here he is in the same room as my other two dogs – Jazz is crated right next to him.

Apparently, he simply can't live without me.

[tanza]

@JazzysMom:

Keoki came from a good breeder, and was crated at their place. BUT, he was also with his siblings there. I'm sure that made a difference.

Here he is in the same room as my other two dogs – Jazz is crated right next to him.

Apparently, he simply can't live without me.

I posted the same question on your other thread, but what does Brian say about Keoki and the problems? Is anyone else in the litter like that? … Was the sire and dam?....

[JazzysMom]

I've only spoken briefly with Bryan about Keoki's crate trouble, and he did offer advice much like what is typically offered here.

I haven't gotten the impression that it's a litter problem, but I never have asked outright.
I don't know about his sire {Buka – Kathy???}, but am pretty sure his dam {Sprite} doesn't have this problem.

[tanza]

@JazzysMom:

I've only spoken briefly with Bryan about Keoki's crate trouble, and he did offer advice much like what is typically offered here.

I haven't gotten the impression that it's a litter problem, but I never have asked outright.
I don't know about his sire {Buka – Kathy???}, but am pretty sure his dam {Sprite} doesn't have this problem.

It is entirely possible that it "runs" in his pedigree…. I have seen it before that there are just certain dogs that have problems.. and it carries through...

My Mickii is a leash chewer.. and I mean big time... she can bite through a leash in 10 seconds or less, so could her Grandma... and all of her kids do exactly the same... and they are "sneaky" about it... one minute they are leashed... next gone... especially at a lure trial...gggg

[JazzysMom]

Last night, sort of on the advice of the vet and behaviorist, I slept in our spare bedroom {which is where the dog's crates are}, with Keoki on a pillow next to the bed. I had put up an ex-pen around us so that he couldn't get out and destroy books, etc.

The dog slept like a rock. Didn't even budge when I got up to use the bathroom once, or the time I had to get up to deal with a child who wasn't feeling well. NOR the the two times I had to get up to move Gypsy's pillow because she was kicking around in her dreams and scratching the things she her pillow was next to.
This morning he waited patiently while I got up and did my normal morning routine - putting up gates, closing doors, etc – before letting him out of the pen. There was no whining, no fussing no shredding. Just a calm, relaxed dog.

[WBL]

I wonder have you thought about a bigger crate or maybe an ex-pen with a top (if he's a climber), also i know some people have said they can push their way out the bottom so maybe two of the ex-pen toppers (one for the bottom)?

[JazzysMom]

Oops, hit send too soon.

Anyway, I have the appt w/the behaviorist today, so we'll see what she says.
I have the ex-pen still set up in case she suggests that while we work toward the crate. I'd still like to work toward crating as we like to take the dogs when I visit my mom, etc and they need to be crated there.
And frankly, the ex-pen is bulky and inhibits use of the room {we have bookcases, file cabiniet, things stored in the closet, etc in there, in addition to the guest bed.

I can't have him sleep in my room as the noises – toenails on floor, licking, sniffing, wiggling, etc -- keeps dh awake, AND he doesn't trust that Keoki won't get up and tear things up {frankly, neither do I}.

So, hopefully we'll find a way to work toward the crate eventually.

As to his pedigree -- 1/2 the dam's side is the same as Jazzy's {Sprite's her granny}, but I have no clue as to his sire's.

[Quercus]

I think this sounds like progress. Where does Gypsy sleep? I wonder if you had Keoki in the Xpen in th spare room, would he sleep if you weren't in there with him? kwim? Is it your presence that is allowing him to relax, or just the feeling of NOT being in a crate?

[JazzysMom]

I guess that is what we'll be working on finding out.

The three dogs sleep in the same room, with the Basenjis crated and Gypsy next to them on a large pillow. She's not crated because she doesn't get up at all during the night, and if she did she wouldn't be a problem in the house nor with the cats. Besides, I just don't have a crate big enough for her, nor is there space in there for a crate that large!

[JazzysMom]

@WBL:

I wonder have you thought about a bigger crate or maybe an ex-pen with a top (if he's a climber), also i know some people have said they can push their way out the bottom so maybe two of the ex-pen toppers (one for the bottom)?

I don't think the crate size is the issue, I think it's the closed door.
His crate is already a Petmate SkyKennel Ultra, which is pretty large.
Anything bigger really won't fit in the room w/Jazzy's crate, Gypsy's pillow, the bed, the bookcases….. it's crowded in there!

I do have a pen top, but he's never really tried to climb out {we've used the pen outside when we've had crowds over for bbq's to prevent food stealage AND escape when idiots leaving the yard gate open}.

I'll see which direction the behaviorist wants to go after her eval. today, and may wind up using the top.

BTW, thanks to everyone for listening/advising. This list is such a great resource; I do wish that every B owner would find it!

[etzbseder]

I believe that some can't be kenneled, but I am not sure about the crate. My B eats food in a plastic kennel (better floor protection) but when he is done, no matter when, he will fight to get out. I can't put him in there ANY time unless it is for him to eat without him fighting. he has scratched up the inside so badly that it is almost corrogated.

[Quercus]

@JazzysMom:

I don't think the crate size is the issue, I think it's the closed door.
His crate is already a Petmate SkyKennel Ultra, which is pretty large.
Anything bigger really won't fit in the room w/Jazzy's crate, Gypsy's pillow, the bed, the bookcases….. it's crowded in there!

I do have a pen top, but he's never really tried to climb out {we've used the pen outside when we've had crowds over for bbq's to prevent food stealage AND escape when idiots leaving the yard gate open}.

I'll see which direction the behaviorist wants to go after her eval. today, and may wind up using the top.

BTW, thanks to everyone for listening/advising. This list is such a great resource; I do wish that every B owner would find it!

This is probably a stupid question…but have you tried a wire crate already?

[MaxBooBooBear]

@JazzysMom:

Last night, sort of on the advice of the vet and behaviorist, I slept in our spare bedroom {which is where the dog's crates are}, with Keoki on a pillow next to the bed. I had put up an ex-pen around us so that he couldn't get out and destroy books, etc.

The dog slept like a rock.

This is great. I wonder how he would be if you put the x-pen around him and your other two dogs in their crates? My two Bs I have now aren't great in crates but are fine in an x-pen together. Actually it's the male who is bad in the crate, the female does pretty well. But at night they both sleep on my bed ;and during the day, they are in their bedroom with a dog door to the backyard–which has an x-pen they are restricted to when I'm not out there with them.

[renaultf1]

@Quercus:

This is probably a stupid question…but have you tried a wire crate already?

I was going to ask the same question.

[luvsmy2bs]

Have things gotten any better? Just curios,,,,,,I was reading your post and felt really sorry for you.

[gbroxon]

Magnum is also a crate hater (only when alone, though). After trying for a number of months to get him to accept his crate, we ended up building him an indoor/outdoor kennel. The indoor part is in our laundry room, with a doggy door leading out to under our deck and a good space to the side of it. He's got about 500 square feet to work out his anxiety in. I no longer feel bad when leaving him by himself. A filled kong and a pat on the head are the only things I do now. I used to do a WHOLE lot more.

[JazzysMom]

@luvsmy2bs:

Have things gotten any better? Just curios,,,,,,I was reading your post and felt really sorry for you.

Currently I have turned my dd's bedroom – thankfully she's away at college -- into a kennel. There is a 6 x 4' ex-pen w/top taking up the entire floor space of her room. Both Jazzy's and Keoki's crates are in there. At night he sleeps okay in that ONLY as long as BOTH crates remain open into the pen.
If I close either crate, he flips out.

During the day when we have to go out, as yesterday and today, I have to remove all "real" bedding and leave just paper toweling. Yesterday I made the mistake of leaving a small piece of carpet UNDER Jazzy's crate, and when we got home it had been pulled out and torn to shreds.
It is obvious that he still wigs out, even in the large pen w/Jazz as today I noticed that the front of his crate {above the door, which was open} has been all chewed up, even though he was not shut in.

Still working with the behaviorist; she and the vet are thinking long-term meds may be in order. That is still being discussed. He's going to hurt himself one day if we don't get a handle on this...and eventually dd is going to be home from college; then what?
We can't travel with him like this either.