Some info on vaccinations
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  • A very good topic. (Edited to be less snarky)

    I view Karen Becker as unreliable at best. She bashes regular vet science and offers up unproven things as factual. And sells products for them. She is part of the Mercola group. Mercola has been in litigation for quackery. So please, look for other back up before taking her word on this. This video is an example. She claims that esteemed Dr Shultz says puppies need one shot, and that it is based on him. That is simply a lie. Below are the reasons for my negative response to the tape.

    Dr. Shultz, however is legit. Legit... how about freaking AWESOME? It is irresponsible to say what she did, and dangerous and absolutely not what he says. Puppies need multiple shots because maternal antibodies last very differently in one pup compared to another. And titres every 3 yrs if you plan to totally stop all vaccines (except legally required rabies... which may not/probably aren't necessary once adults, except not having it done can get you sued and your dog dead).

    He did multiple on his own puppies, but stopped after final booster, doing titres for life

    According to Dr. Ronald D Schultz, head of pathobiology at Wisconsin University and arguably the world expert on this subject, once immunity to a virus exists, it persists for years or life. I am told that he vaccinated his own Golden Retrievers as puppies, and then didn't vaccinate them again. He took yearly blood tests. His Goldens are reported to have died naturally at around 15 years of age, and showed good antibody levels from the first booster until they died. Moral of the story: this and other research shows that annual shots are not necessary.<<

    Dr. Schultz indicates that dogs should not receive any vaccinations before they are six weeks of age. This is because a puppy/kitten gets some immunity through antibodies in their mother’s milk. Those antibodies help protect the puppy/kitten from disease but also will interfere with vaccinations. This is why puppies and kittens receive multiple vaccinations. Although the antibodies in the milk interfere with vaccinations, under no circumstances should you prevent the puppy/kitten from getting these antibodies.

    Recommended vaccination schedule: Start at 8-10 weeks, give a second dose 3 to 4 weeks later and then a final dose an additional 3 to 4 weeks later, making sure it is at 14 to 16 weeks of age. By then the mother’s antibodies will not interfere with the vaccinations.

    After these initial puppy/kitten vaccinations, Dr. Schultz recommends doing a titer test or revaccination when the puppy/kitten is a year of age and then revaccinating or re-titering no more frequently than every 3 years.

    Some breeds (Rottweiler’s and Doberman’s) do not develop an immune response as easily, especially to the canine parvo vaccine. However, studies have demonstrated that if that last dose is at 14-16 weeks of age at least 98% of puppies will get immunized, regardless of breed.<< (Note, there are noncore like kennel cough he recommends regularly if needed as they are proven to not last. .. "Other non-core vaccines for the dog that are important are Leptospirosis (caused by four different serovars/strains). The other disease that is regional for which there is a vaccine is Lyme disease.

    These non-core vaccines, unlike the core vaccines, only provide short-term immunity and must be given annually.

    Why don’t these vaccines confer long term immunity? It has to do with the immunity of the animal. There are some diseases, with humans too, where once we get the disease we develop a lifelong immunity. An example with this with humans would be measles. But with humans and animals there are also many diseases which we can get over and over again like Lyme disease and the common cold."
    http://www.greenacreskennel.com/pet-health/vaccination-interviews-with-dr-ron-schultz-–-may-2013.html

    Btw, I used to drive vets nuts with doing single shots. I truly have found no solid research that it is necessary, so I feel better saying you can dismiss Becker over the combo shots since Schultz uses them. You will note here his discussing them. But I felt better doing single and it won't hurt your dog, though there is some research showing that combo shots actually produce enhanced response.
    http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/51665176980/leptospirosis-dog-vaccines#.WHpsXlUrIoo

    I absolutely agree with her that we vaccinate too much. But then, that has been known for 25 yrs and sadly too many people will just let their vets do whatever. While the complications are not proven to be severe, why would you do it if your dog doesn't need it?

    The most effective canine core products currently include modified live and recombinant vaccines alone or in combination. The combination products with CPV-2, CDV and CAV-2 currently often include canine parainfluenza (CPI) virus. New “core only” products have been and are being developed that don’t have CPI, however, the CPI will not cause a problem if and when used as a parenteral 5 way combination product.<<

    http://truth4pets.org/2012/06/what-everyone-needs-to-know/

    (((((((( More on Karen Becker... because no, I am not anti-holistic. I am against anyone selling something as a cure or preventative or medically proven when it is not only not proven, but disproven. If you choose to follow her, at least do so knowing the views from the other side:

    http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2012/04/more-misleading-and-unethical-advertising-for-alternative-veterinary-medicine/

    https://www.thedodo.com/five-dog-pages-you-need-to-stop-linking-to-1091066497.html

    http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2015/05/dr-karen-becker-offers-some-classic-veterinary-detox-quackery/

    last edited by DebraDownSouth
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  • K

    It's truly amazing to experience your aggression on this forum again and again.

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  • K

    We have been over this before.
    You divide the world in trustworthy , scientific doctors on one side and on the other dangerous quacks who are only after your money. As I stated before, I have a different view (and many experiences to back it up).
    Yes, I do find the way you talk about practitioners, not falling in your first category, aggressive, and condescending, as we have discussed before. This case seems no different.
    Make no mistake: I believe in and support wholeheartedly your constitutional right to spew bile about any person you don't trust. As I have every right to have an opinion about that - in any case, it stops my appetite for further discussions.
    If Karen Becker makes you spit because she is dangerous to animal health in the US and elsewhere, and you have the science to back that up, report her to the proper authorities. I am sure they will take action. Or write directly to her, and post her reply here.
    My promise from here on: I will totally let you do your thing here, without further responding in any form, shape or way.

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  • @kjdonkers

    I am sorry that you find belief in science and research to be so "aggressive and condescending".

    But here's the part where you are letting your personal dislike for me cloud facts. I have always .. ALWAYS... said that there are supplements, therapies, whatever that have ZERO research but seem to work, I've used them, and that while I always SAY when no research, there's a lot we don't know yet. So no, I am not always against things that are not scientifically proven. So while you may want to paint me with that nonsense of all or nothing, it is a lie.

    I AM against dangerous and --in this case-- out and out lies, claiming like she did that one shot will do it and that a respected vet researcher agrees. I am against things that are absolutely proven to be false (detox), which can not only be a waste of money, but sometimes very harmful.

    last edited by DebraDownSouth
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  • K

    Please read correctly: I do not find a belief in science aggressive. What I do find is 1. that the way you promote your views is aggressive and that 2. there is a lot wrong with what is promoted as 'scientific' and evidence based. But again, we have been over this before.
    Then you claim to be more nuanced in your position, but you go overboard immediately on a subject you obviously have no experience with at all, in this case detox. There are many types of detox and I have been the beneficiary of various approaches as have been people close to me. I also witnessed from close up a case of two young brothers who were diagnosed with severe autism. Turned out they had a heavy case of leaky gut syndrome and with a diet AND a tailor made brain detox within months they turned into normal, healthy boys. And then science has proven that detox is rubbish? Oh my.

    last edited by kjdonkers
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  • @kjdonkers

    What is "aggressive"? My opinion or my disgust for Becker? Can you, seriously, when I say something that upsets you, just say... how about rewording this? Truly I type super fast, brain obviously does not always engage and while you remembered we have had THIS issue, all I retained is that you don't like me and I need to stay neutral. Obviously I didn't remember neutral in all responses and let my emotional response to her take over. I'd rather save my spitting inclination for myself and engage in communication than make it upsetting for no reason. I am not willing not to debate/give research. But I can learn to not be "aggressive" about it. Is that a good enough compromise?

    As for detox, unless you can provide me with case histories proving that the kids were made will from that treatment, it's simply one more personal story. I have had people swear that drinking a veggie mix cured their cancer, or that using a well-known supplement hype cured their IBD, etc. Yet research for same, real research with real patients and real double blind, found the actual effect no more than placebos. So I am not doubting that someone can drink cat pee and cure something... Or more likely they drank it and they either didn't have the disorder or it was going away on it's on. But personal testimonials that fly in the face of much research are simply nothing I believe. Of course some things that there is only weak or no support of in research MAY work for some people. We are all amazingly different. But when so much research proves it is not possible, mostly it is placebo effect.

    But your kids who were dx with severe autism who had leaky gut... I am sorry their doctor wasn't aware of studies showing it is not uncommon. (while even leaky gut is not proven... it isn't UNPROVEN, so sure worth trying http://badgut.org/information-centre/a-z-digestive-topics/leaky-gut-syndrome/ ) Just a few moments research and I found it. There is debate and they're a long way from agreeing it's real, much less knowing the cause and effect relationship, so this is one where I DON'T HAVE PROOF, but I suspect if you have toxins leaking, it is going to make you far sicker and mentally debilitated if bad enough. It's also another case that people poo-pooed leaky gut as not real, but chemical testing/bloodwork showed that there IS such a thing and doctors are beginning to learn. A change in diet could logically and scientifically be near magical in effect. The parents finding help for them before permanent damage occurred is wonderful... no snark intended, I really am glad you shared that. Having friends with autistic children and adult children, I need to relay the link. So while you think our communicating is a waste, you have helped ME learn something I can share with others. That's good, even if you dislike me. :)

    My colleague, pediatrician Sandy Newmark, M.D., who deals with leaky gut syndrome in children, tells me that it isn’t clear how many people have this disorder or exactly what problems can be attributed to it. Dr. Newmark says that it has been established that a significant percentage of children with autism have increased intestinal permeability, but it isn’t known whether this is a cause or an effect of food sensitivities and an underlying metabolic problem.<<

    Brain detox.. sorry.

    The amount of studies proving detox is a scam are overwhelming. You can choose to ignore them, but when there is massive research proving something does not work,... you are right, I am dismissive. My opinion nor yours makes things factual when science proves it doesn't work. Not that you'll care, but lots of links below. I'm pretty sure you know I think the diet and slowing letting the body get rid of toxins helps... the brain detox simply worthless.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification_(alternative_medicine)
    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/detox-scams-are-worthless-and-potentially-dangerous/

    last edited by DebraDownSouth
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  • I personally Love Dr Karen Becker and I believe she has sound Holistic views. Yes she offers products but most of the time her articles have nothing to do with what she sells. I believe Dogs are over vaccinated, that's why I am glad, Florida only requires a Rabies shot.

    Debradownsouth, as confirmed by private emails I got, when I battled with her, goes overboard on every topic, its her way or the highway......I had to stay away, as alot of people on this forum do, simple because of her comments and claims to be a expert in everything except knowing when to shut up

    last edited by katoman
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  • K

    Debra - I answered your message. I will decline to respond to your last posting, it would be the same thing over and over again.

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  • kjdonkers thanks for the message response. What you said was valuable and I appreciate the communication.

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  • @katoman said in Some info on vaccinations:

    I personally Love Dr Karen Becker and I believe she has sound Holistic views. Yes she offers products but most of the time her articles have nothing to do with what she sells. I believe Dogs are over vaccinated, that's why I am glad, Florida only requires a Rabies shot.

    Debradownsouth, as confirmed by private emails I got, when I battled with her, goes overboard on every topic, its her way or the highway......I had to stay away, as alot of people on this forum do, simple because of her comments and claims to be a expert in everything except knowing when to shut up

    Oh katoman, I could post the emails I got about you and your disruptive, vile bullying crude abuse of others that got you kicked off their boards/forums. If someone doesn't come here because they cannot just ignore my posts if I bother them, then that is sad because even someone on here posting personal attacks, abuse, talking about his junk being cut off, whatever... I would never let you drive me off. Your sig line though.. lol yep, you are a waste of time.

    last edited by DebraDownSouth
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  • Enough already - if you don't like a forum member please just don't reply

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  • N

    @kjdonkers Sounds to me like the two young brothers who were diagnosed with severe autism, were diagnosed by a "quack" of a Dr. It takes a good while to be able to diagnose Autism & be correct about it. Thank goodness the two brothers were finally diagnosed correctly & given the appropriate care!!

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  • N

    @katoman If as you say, "..I had to stay away, .." then why are you back? You're nothing more than a "stink stirrer" to say the least! I don't remember you posting anything that had a link to prove/disprove whatever it was you were rattling on about! You may have posted a link & I missed it, sorry if you did! And this is a forum, not a "battleground" or a boxing ring or an mma cage!! A forum is for input from others on certain & many subjects, whether or not it's what a certain person wants to hear or agree/disagree with. I don't always agree with what is said by DebraDownSouth but at least she posts links (almost all the time) that give me the chance to read on whatever subject is being discussed. Many times, I get into reading some of the links she's posted & find more links!! Sometimes I find my own links to read on certain subjects. But just because I don't like what someone is saying things I don't like on a certain subject, doesn't mean I have to do "battle" with them! It is a forum, where people make their comments on the subject at hand. There will be negative posts as well as positive posts. Your posts don't really seem to tie in to very many subjects so if you can't stand the heat ~ then get away from the fire.... for Pete's sake! You have your own FB page for FL. Basenji owners ... why not go there, start your own forums on your page! I don't live in FL. so I haven't been to your page & I will not go to it, not because you think I'm such a terrible person but because ~ I have no business trying to be on your FB page! So, how about a time out for a bit everyone? Personally, I love it when people post links in with what they say! And that doesn't mean posts just from DebraDownSouth, posts from everyone! Sometimes I read so long on so many links that when I finish on the computer, I can barely see anything on & off of the screen!! And not all of those links come from DebraDownSouth, albeit, she does have a fairly large collection of links! Some I agree with & some I don't. But that's why I love the forums ~ all the different people & their opinions ... plus the compassion they have about the subject! So HEY EVERYONE ~ LET'S HAVE A GOOD FORUM, with many people & their opinions! I know, katoman, many people & their opinions might tick you off by their "blunt" opinions but, if a person is blunt & to the point ... I've been told that, "It's much better than reading someone rattle on & on." like me!! I know I do it but that's just me! There have been times I've been blunt & to the point though. ( Hard to believe, isn't it?)

    last edited by Nancy Berry
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  • K

    @Nancy-Berry If only they had been quacks. The boys were ill and showed serious behavorial issues from birth, so they had been under observation and treatment from birth (problem is: if you have a mental problem, your PHYSICAL health will never be in question - it is against regular medicine protocol, at least over here).
    As it turned out, both parents had Leaky Gut Syndrome (without knowing it), and their sons had it in a double dose, so to speak. The therapist treated the whole family, with good results. The mother told us that now she could sleep through the night, which had been impossible for over 6 years because the boys needed so much attention.

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  • N

    @kjdonkers May I ask "Where is over here?" Sounds like the Therapist is the one who saved those boys! I have no idea how old they are to this day but, are they still on the special diet & doing well? (I'm guessing they are!) Two very lucky kids they are! I'm glad that things have worked out for them & I hope you keep me updated on them from time to time! I'm sure you know this but for those who aren't familiar with Autistic people, they are not "sick in the head". They are actually smarter than most of the average people! They usually have some very high IQ's! I worked with one young man that could tell you what year any State became a State, even when the Roman Empire fell. What I thought was so awesome is, he could name every dinosaur by it's usual name & he could tell you the scientific name also ~ which is a very long name!! You could open the PDR to any page & have him read on a certain subject & he could explain exactly what he had just read, in terms that normal people could understand! If that's not smart, I don't know what smart is!!

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  • K

    @Nancy-Berry Over here is The Netherlands. Yes, certainly in some ways, autism is a gift. It's a great thing that company hire them more and more because of their special skills and talents. The last time I heard about the family, all were well...

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  • N

    @kjdonkers Thanks for answering so quickly! I'm glad & happy to hear the boys are doing well! It's great to hear that they got hired by a Company & you said it perfectly, ... "their special skills and talents". :)

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  • D

    I comprehend the significance of having your own sentiment on immunizations and wouldn't dream of attempting to impact others or being accusing of everybody for pet choices I simply feel that there are other individuals to consider when settling on decisions.

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