My husband and I got our Basenji from Mariah. Our boy is now 4 years old. We live in Indiana and communicated with her via email before we traveled to Indy. I can tell you she is very serious about this breed and our transaction went smooth and we are very happy with our boy (Rigley).
Why do breeders mix Basenjis with other breeds?
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What new problems? What could go more wrong with putting a Lab on a Poodle than a Lab on a Lab?
New problems crop up when you take 5 healthy dogs and then build a whole breed on only these dogs.Having a narrow gene pool is not the only thing that can make problems with breeding. What can go more wrong, is problems of mismatched morphism, and randomly assorted skill sets. A bulldog crossed with a Malamute could be a disaster in the making. Bulldogs have short flat faces, Malamutes have lots of hair and long legs. If you breed these two, you will have a dog that can run and overheat in a heartbeat, because the air exchange through the muzzle (which is one of the cooling mechanisms for dogs) is insufficient for a long legged hairy dog. Of course this pairing sounds ridiculous to us, but what if the person breeding it was trying to get a more sturdy Bulldog, or a shorter Malamute? The point here is when you cross two breeds, you don't know what you are going to get. Randomly assorted skill sets apply too, if you cross a beagle with a whippet, you might get a dog who will follow it's nose with the speed of greased lightning, with no clue how to get home.
When you breed two dogs of the same breed, generations have shown what the dog will look like, and to some extent act like. Consistency of form and function is the whole point for responsible breeders. There is none of that for those breeding 'designer dogs.'
Miranda
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The argument that mixed breeds are healthier makes the assumption that the disorders are recessive and are not present in both breeds. This is often not the case. Diseases like PRA and HD are present in many breeds and are issues in mixed breeds, my aunt had a german shepherd/rottweiler mix that had severe hip and elbow dysplasia.
In the US, there is no reason to purposely breed mixed breeds to obtain "cute puppies". If someone wants a "cute" mixed breed puppy they should go to their local shelter or rescue and adopt a homeless animal. The reality is that people who are breeding designer mixes are not doing health testing and are "for profit" breeders hoping to cash in on the next fad dog.
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Not if it are recessive traits.. And if your Poodle has Epilepsy, you don't use him for breeding at all.. Same with the Lab and heart disease..
Also: I'm not planning on breeding my Poodle to my Lab to start a new breed and breed their offspring.. I'm just breeding my Poodle to my Lab to get cute puppies that go to good homes to be a beloved family pet.. I don't see anything wrong with that.Are we speculating at this point or are there specific tests for every possible genetic defect.
Secondly what if the puppies do not turn out to be cute and no one wants them.
Third, lots of puppy mills and back yard breeders get started all in the quest to make cute puppies. Aren't there enough cute puppies already in the shelter. Some are even called Mutts which is a term we used prior to designer dog.
I can assure you that the people who are out there selling designer dogs are not for the most part concerned with the genetics that their irresponsible breeding might pass on if their so called designer dog is ever bred.
The bottom line is this is all about money and irresponsibility and there is no doubt in my mind that this is ok in any way, shape, or form.
Jason and Miranda
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Having a narrow gene pool is not the only thing that can make problems with breeding. What can go more wrong, is problems of mismatched morphism, and randomly assorted skill sets. A bulldog crossed with a Malamute could be a disaster in the making. Bulldogs have short flat faces, Malamutes have lots of hair and long legs. If you breed these two, you will have a dog that can run and overheat in a heartbeat, because the air exchange through the muzzle (which is one of the cooling mechanisms for dogs) is insufficient for a long legged hairy dog. Of course this pairing sounds ridiculous to us, but what if the person breeding it was trying to get a more sturdy Bulldog, or a shorter Malamute? The point here is when you cross two breeds, you don't know what you are going to get. Randomly assorted skill sets apply too, if you cross a beagle with a whippet, you might get a dog who will follow it's nose with the speed of greased lightning, with no clue how to get home.
When you breed two dogs of the same breed, generations have shown what the dog will look like, and to some extent act like. Consistency of form and function is the whole point for responsible breeders. There is none of that for those breeding 'designer dogs.'
Miranda
No.. breeding a Bulldog to a Malamute doesn't sound like a good plan
But breeding an "Excellent" pedigree Bulldog doesn't sound like a great plan either… Their air exchange is already insufficient... And consistency of form and function means that you are loosing genetic diversity, which isn't all that great..I understand that "designer dogs" are an hot item.. but I'm not a big 'producer' of dogs, I'm not breeding a 'tea cup' chi.. or a short nosed, long haired, short legged being.. And I'm not selling them in a pet shop either..
I'm just trying to breed a healthy litter of pups with my two very healthy, tested, pedigree dogs, with good characters... And I'm still not seeing a problem...
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The argument that mixed breeds are healthier makes the assumption that the disorders are recessive and are not present in both breeds. This is often not the case. Diseases like PRA and HD are present in many breeds and are issues in mixed breeds, my aunt had a german shepherd/rottweiler mix that had severe hip and elbow dysplasia.
In the US, there is no reason to purposely breed mixed breeds to obtain "cute puppies". If someone wants a "cute" mixed breed puppy they should go to their local shelter or rescue and adopt a homeless animal. The reality is that people who are breeding designer mixes are not doing health testing and are "for profit" breeders hoping to cash in on the next fad dog.
I'm not saying mixed breeds are healthier.. I'm saying they aren't worse than our 'perfect' pedigree dogs… I know that a lot (most) of the people that breed mixes aren't testing etc.
I'm just saying that as a good breeder you want to put healthy puppies on this world, that hopefully grow up to become healthy adult dogs that bring a lot of joy to their families.. And those puppies don't need to be purebreds. Why not give those puppies pedigrees which say that mom was a Border Collie and dad a Whippet.. You can still see where the pups come from, who the parents are, what their health results are etc..
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Are we speculating at this point or are there specific tests for every possible genetic defect.
Secondly what if the puppies do not turn out to be cute and no one wants them.
Third, lots of puppy mills and back yard breeders get started all in the quest to make cute puppies. Aren't there enough cute puppies already in the shelter. Some are even called Mutts which is a term we used prior to designer dog.
I can assure you that the people who are out there selling designer dogs are not for the most part concerned with the genetics that their irresponsible breeding might pass on if their so called designer dog is ever bred.
The bottom line is this is all about money and irresponsibility and there is no doubt in my mind that this is ok in any way, shape, or form.
Jason and Miranda
Of course you're always 'speculating' if a dog is wearing a recessive trait if there aren't genetic tests.. even if you're breeding that Poodle to another Poodle.. You research the pedigree to find out more about how much that trait comes back in the lines. But you can also do that for both your Lab and your Poodle.
Secondly: all puppies are cute
Third: I don't care if you call it a Mutt. I'm not a backyard breeder. I'm a responsible breeder. I'm not trying to breed cute puppies. I'm trying to breed happy healthy puppies with good characters that can become nice pets, or good sport dogs.
I know that a lot of the 'mutt/desiger dogs' breeders are doing it for money etc etc. I'm just saying that it's not all bad. If you breed two dogs of different breeds with exactly the same care as two dogs of the same breed.. I don't see a problem there. And we are all responsible for the dogs in the shelters. But I'll rather get my Mutt from a responsible Mutt breeder than from a shelter.. Just as some people rather get their B from a responsible breeder than from BRAT.
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The reason distinct breeds were developed in the first place was because people wanted predictable traits. Jason and Miranda are correct when they say that when you mix two breeds you have no way of telling what mix of traits you are going to get.
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And about the 'freak of nature' that Vickilb mentioned.. I saw a Bulldog today that died because.. well.. because he was a Bulldog: His lack of nose gave him a palatum molle that was too long.. He just couldn't breath and died.. He came all the way from Japan, because he was such a beautiful example of the breed..
I agree Janneke, the original standards of many of the Mastiff breeds have been altered to please owners and ring judges. Look at some of the older pics of Bulldog champions, and compare them with what wins in the ring today. They look totally different.
Some breeders bred a better dog, others, a "prettier" or "showier" dog, not necessarily a healthier dog. The tastes of the 'consumer' are most certainly influenced by what they see on TV with all the televised dog shows. They want a bullie with the most snubbed nose possible, or a GSD with the lowest back hips. They continue to breed because people continue to buy. In some cases, they continue to breed, not because it's whats best for the breed, but what's currently in vogue in the show ring.
When it comes to designer dogs, they are bred here in the US to sell to the consumer with little regard to what's best for the breeds involved and with little or no testing at all in regards to health issues.
They're like the soup of the day here. If you have the ingredients, throw them together and sell to the highest bidder. When your palate changes, get rid of the old ingredients and concoct a new soup.
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The reason distinct breeds were developed in the first place was because people wanted predictable traits. Jason and Miranda are correct when they say that when you mix two breeds you have no way of telling what mix of traits you are going to get.
I don't really see a problem here. I think I can have some idea what character a Poodle x Lab will get.. It won't be something uncontrollable for an owner.. (well.. not more than a B is ;))
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Some breeders bred a better dog, others, a "prettier" or "showier" dog, not necessarily a healthier dog. The tastes of the 'consumer' are most certainly influenced by what they see on TV with all the televised dog shows. They want a bullie with the most snubbed nose possible, or a GSD with the lowest back hips. They continue to breed because people continue to buy. In some cases, they continue to breed, not because it's whats best for the breed, but what's currently in vogue in the show ring.
Talking about "Designer Dogs"…...
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Here we are with dogs are dogs and humans are humans so here go's.
Do we as people need to have testing done for genetic defects so we know who we can marry and who we cannot. If we mix two humans do we get predictable traits???
People change and ways change this change came with the different dogs we may not like it or we may but just life.
Rita Jean
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Perhaps I didn't state it as well as I should, but taken out of context, yes that statement seems OT.
I was responding to your statement about pure bred, …"And about the 'freak of nature' that Vickilb mentioned.. I saw a Bulldog today that died because.. well.. because he was a Bulldog: His lack of nose gave him a palatum molle that was too long.. He just couldn't breath and died.. He came all the way from Japan, because he was such a beautiful example of the breed.."
I also responded on designer dogs as follows....
When it comes to designer dogs, they are bred here in the US to sell to the consumer with little regard to what's best for the breeds involved and with little or no testing at all in regards to health issues.They're like the soup of the day here. If you have the ingredients, throw them together and sell to the highest bidder. When your palate changes, get rid of the old ingredients and concoct a new soup.
Sorry if I offended. Perhaps the culture of breeding for the consumer and unlimited venues for sales of puppies in the US makes me angry.
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Perhaps I didn't state it as well as I should, but taken out of context, yes that statement seems OT.
I was responding to your statement about pure bred, …"And about the 'freak of nature' that Vickilb mentioned.. I saw a Bulldog today that died because.. well.. because he was a Bulldog: His lack of nose gave him a palatum molle that was too long.. He just couldn't breath and died.. He came all the way from Japan, because he was such a beautiful example of the breed.."
I also responded on designer dogs as follows....
When it comes to designer dogs, they are bred here in the US to sell to the consumer with little regard to what's best for the breeds involved and with little or no testing at all in regards to health issues.They're like the soup of the day here. If you have the ingredients, throw them together and sell to the highest bidder. When your palate changes, get rid of the old ingredients and concoct a new soup.
Sorry if I offended. Perhaps the culture of breeding for the consumer and unlimited venues for sales of puppies in the US makes me angry.
I think we agree
But I believe that breeders who destroy breeds because short noses should be extra short etc. do exactly the same as the BYB's who breed very small chi's or mix a pug with whatever to create something that will sell.. One does it for show success, the other for money.. But they are both making 'designer dogs'.. -
Janneke and Snorky998,
I agree, no matter why you do it, you are still designing a dog…whether for fame (in the showring) or for money..
Some dogs are so tweaked they can not even welp without human intervention...but they look good (?) -
@Rita:
Here we are with dogs are dogs and humans are humans so here go's.
Do we as people need to have testing done for genetic defects so we know who we can marry and who we cannot. If we mix two humans do we get predictable traits???
People change and ways change this change came with the different dogs we may not like it or we may but just life.
Rita Jean
If there would be a serious genetic disease in my and my partners 'pedigrees', I would definitely like to find out how likely it would be that we were carrying it and could pass it on to our kids.
But maybe it's better to compair dog breeding with horse breeding, where it's much more accepted to cross breeds.
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If there would be a serious genetic disease in my and my partners 'pedigrees', I would definitely like to find out how likely it would be that we were carrying it and could pass it on to our kids.
But maybe it's better to compair dog breeding with horse breeding, where it's much more accepted to cross breeds.
Well, not really… ... you can't register them... you can't show them.. no real difference then dogs... Only with a couple of horse breeds can you register what would be sort of considered a cross bred, but not with any "Tom, Dick or Harry" that came down the road if you are into showing/breeding... Appaloosa come to mind, but it has to be crossed with a known registery... ie: Quarter Horse, TB, Arab, Morgan... Quarter Horse with only a TB, TB with only TB... and it must be a live breeding...
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@Rita:
Here we are with dogs are dogs and humans are humans so here go's.
Do we as people need to have testing done for genetic defects so we know who we can marry and who we cannot. If we mix two humans do we get predictable traits???
People change and ways change this change came with the different dogs we may not like it or we may but just life.
Rita Jean
Rita in a way we already do this. While I cannot verify that every sperm bank does this, I offer you the following quotes from an article on the web.
" Donors for sperm banks are recruited from the general population through advertising. However, in order to qualify as a donor, the man must fit certain criteria and undergo a series of tests.
All donors are required to be healthy males who are willing to produce the sperm by masturbation at the sperm bank. Prospective donors must also consent to genetic testing as well as to being screened for syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, cystic fibrosis, HIV, Hepatitis B and C, human T-cell lymphotropic viruses, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, cytomegalovirus and transmissible spongiform encephalopathy.""After a donor's sperm has been accepted for inclusion in the bank, the sperm is cryogenically frozen in tanks of liquid nitrogen for a minimum of six months before use; during this time period, the donor will be periodically checked to make sure that he is healthy and will not pass diseases to others if his sperm is used."
"Sperm banks allow prospective parents access to certain information about sperm donors, often by way of an online catalog, so that they can choose certain physical traits they would like their child to have. The race, eye color, age, height, weight, family history, educational background, blood group and general health is usually listed.
Sperm banks often allow the parent to choose the sex of the child, to purchase and store vials of sperm from a particular donor, and to purchase sperm specifically prepared for certain types of impregnation techniques."(http://www.ehow.com/about_4672393_information-human-sperm-banks.html)
We are already aware that the likelihood of birth defects increases if siblings or other close relatives marry.
Cystic fibrosis, Sickle Cell disease, Tay-Sachs disease are all things that humans can be genetically tested for. There are certain ethnic groups where this type of testing has become very important and common place.
The average person does not know that some of this is going on behind the scenes unless you have encountered in through a specific area of study or career choice.
Jason
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Of course you're always 'speculating' if a dog is wearing a recessive treat if there aren't genetic tests.. even if you're breeding that Poodle to another Poodle.. You research the pedigree to find out more about how much that treat comes back in the lines. But you can also do that for both your Lab and your Poodle.
Secondly: all puppies are cute
Third: I don't care if you call it a Mutt. I'm not a backyard breeder. I'm a responsible breeder. I'm not trying to breed cute puppies. I'm trying to breed happy healthy puppies with good characters that can become nice pets, or good sport dogs.
I know that a lot of the 'mutt/desiger dogs' breeders are doing it for money etc etc. I'm just saying that it's not all bad. If you breed two dogs of different breeds with exactly the same care as two dogs of the same breed.. I don't see a problem there. And we are all responsible for the dogs in the shelters. But I'll rather get my Mutt from a responsible Mutt breeder than from a shelter.. Just as some people rather get their B from a responsible breeder than from BRAT.
Direct quote from your post #15
"Also: I'm not planning on breeding my Poodle to my Lab to start a new breed and breed their offspring.. I'm just breeding my Poodle to my Lab to get cute puppies that go to good homes to be a beloved family pet.. I don't see anything wrong with that."
I thought I would add this quote from your post #15 because it differs from what you are claiming in this one. You reference it as "Third" in your response here.
How far back are you going to study that line. If the trait has not surfaced in the last 5 generations are you going to go back further or you are you going to accept that as sufficient? When can you be absolutely sure that you have bred Healthy Happy Puppies. Even after they are born, they could be subject to a late-onset disease.
I will admit that it is possible to use some statistical analysis if you have a large enough sample. Unfortunately when your sample size shrinks, your ability to predict an outcome becomes less effective or accurate. I am sure if you are attending Veterinary school, then you are probably familiar with statistical analysis of genetics and its value. This type of analysis would retain its value whether it be dogs, cats, horses, or humans that you are studying.
Jason
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How far back are you going to study that line. If the trait has not surfaced in the last 5 generations are you going to go back further or you are you going to accept that as sufficient? When can you be absolutely sure that you have bred Healthy Happy Puppies. Even after they are born, they could be subject to a late-onset disease.
Jason
IMO, it would be amazing to find 5 generations of health testing to identify whether certain traits show up or not, regardless if it is a pure or mixed breeding. When I was looking for my current puppy I was lucky even to find complete health testing one to two generations back much less five. And even those one to two generations was not necessarily complete via CHIC standards.
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Ya' know I had this whole post goin' about the age of the breed and how much human intervention they've had….and I got to the end of my rant and decided it wasn't worth it , deleted it. Bottom line, why do we, periodically, send expeditions to Africa to find more Basenji stock??? A) because we can....no other breed can find their original.
because we want to keep the breed as pure to its roots as possible. All this other cross breeding (unless its to create some better type of working dog) is just human whim and fancy. And, let's face it, most of us are not actually using our dogs, of any breed, to work a farm or ranch.
