The Humanization of Dogs Part 2

[AJs Human]

ComicDom1: It's depressing, really, if I am always on guard my dog will hurt another dog. I do what I can to reduce the risk as much as possible. Sometimes that means AJ doesn't get to play with a certain dog. Animal ownership should be rewarding for the human as well as the animal.

As Ivoss points out, dogs evolved to be around humans, with a few exceptions. As a result, there is always going to be some sort of "humanization," if you want to be technical about it. Dogs are animals, yet we allow them in our homes. They are animals, yet we allow them on the furniture. They are animals, yet we buy special food for them and take them to the doctor. If we were to completely "dehumanize" dogs, does that mean setting them loose on the streets to fend for themselves and terrorize people in whatever packs they form?

[mauigirl]

@ComicDom1:

A lot of very good comments here. I would like to add and point out that I really do not think a dog understands what kind of costume they are put in whether its mean to be funny or scary. So if its a human that is deciding the purpose of the costume or what it that costume should reflect, I still maintain its a human choice and/or projection onto an animal that normally would not choose it.

Right, I agree. Your comment has Neuticles written all over it, to me. Just another angle. I think that from the dog's perspective with costumes and Neuticles there is the same lack of understanding of whats being done and why.

In case people don't remember, here is the thread Jason started on Neuticles, when he was considering getting them for Roo:

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=5196&highlight=neuticles

Isn't the concept of Neuticles an example of humanization/anthropomorphism?

[ComicDom1]

Here are a couple of links that give some different points of view.

http://fringehog.com/2007/08/31/pets-fringehog-friday/

http://www.unclematty.com/training/peopledanger.htm

Jason

[agilebasenji]

@ComicDom1:

A lot of very good comments here. I would like to add and point out that I really do not think a dog understands what kind of costume they are put in whether its mean to be funny or scary. So if its a human that is deciding the purpose of the costume or what it that costume should reflect, I still maintain its a human choice and/or projection onto an animal that normally would not choose it.

I don't dress my dogs in costumes for Halloween. (I don't really like Halloween.) But I do put Hal'n bandanas on the dogs. I'm not sure what the difference is. Da boyz are certified therapy dogs, and if we visited a place where children were, I'd get costumes for them, but don't feel inclined to do that for adults. I do think that putting on a bandana or some holiday item helps relate to the adults and may especially help with the Alzheimers people. (We do visits to an Alz facility.)

I was talking to someone (may have been an AKC rep) and she was getting geared up to train her rott to do therapy work. The first thing out of my mouth was put something silly on the dog and teach her a silly dog-and-pony trick. If I had a "bad" dog breed, or even a big black dog, you bet I'd put a silly, frilly collar on it to do therarpy visits. It softens the image of the breed and makes the dog and you more approachable. And I think it's very important for people of those breeds to go the extra mile to make their dog look friendly and have people in society have a good impression of these dogs.

There have been several people saying that the dogs don't enjoy being dressed up. That's true, but some dogs do. They realize they get extra attention when they are dressed up and really do seem to enjoy it. My mom's papillon seems to enjoy her frilly collars and many poodles love stuff like that. My basenjis don't really care much but they don't like hats; Zest was fine with panties on during the season; they don't mind the coats on cold days; they leave the bandanas alone.

Is all that "humanization" of dogs? I don't know. Is it a human choice that the dog would not choose? yea, but so are a lot of things. Any breeders care to tell the story of putting a collar on for the first time? I know my dogs would not choose to be in crates in the car or in the house. I also know they'd choose not to be on leash, skip the vet visit, etc. There are a lot of choices I make for my dogs, but the fact is that they in a human society. I know some people who would say keeping a dog inside is too much.<shrug>

I do agility with my basenjis. That is a "humanized type of control" (even off leash) but they do seem to enjoy it. Would they choose to do it without any training? Zest certainly did the dogwalk and Aframe, but not the teeter, jumps or weave poles without training, but she seems to enjoy herself when I put my criteria on the game. She enjoys the learning.

Is "humanization" a bad thing? I don't know. We all seem pretty happy and well adjusted in my house.</shrug>

[thunderbird8588]

Right, back to the thread, my visitor has gone now
I have to say i think playdates are a cracking idea if they work well, i wish we had more over here. They are just a way of people meeting people and Dogs meeting Dogs, i think the name Playdate probably conjures up the wrong image but it doesn't realy bother me either way.
I agree Jason that probably no Dog appreciates being dressed up in fancy dress but have to admit they look awful cute sometimes and as long as the dogs not distressed in any way, can't see much harm in it, unless as Andrea says the person has some underlying issues.
Have to admit to dressing my Cat up when i was little :O, and also putting a Santa hat on Max and a wreath on Benjis head at christmas, just long enough to get a pic. No they didn't get anything out of it but it made us smile (i think they just humoured us silly humans!)
We do get our pets a pressie at christmas, obviously they dont understand the concept of present giving but they certainly know something exciting is going on and want a piece of the action.
Even our Cats come into the living room on Christmas morning and tear open their present.

[ComicDom1]

@AJs:

ComicDom1: It's depressing, really, if I am always on guard my dog will hurt another dog. I do what I can to reduce the risk as much as possible. Sometimes that means AJ doesn't get to play with a certain dog. Animal ownership should be rewarding for the human as well as the animal.

As Ivoss points out, dogs evolved to be around humans, with a few exceptions. As a result, there is always going to be some sort of "humanization," if you want to be technical about it. Dogs are animals, yet we allow them in our homes. They are animals, yet we allow them on the furniture. They are animals, yet we buy special food for them and take them to the doctor. If we were to completely "dehumanize" dogs, does that mean setting them loose on the streets to fend for themselves and terrorize people in whatever packs they form?

Not to be disagreeable here, but cows and other animals have evolved around humans too. We have not turned them loose in the streets at least in this country. Pot Belly Pigs were a considered a popular pet for some back a few years ago and were even allowed to live in a home.

As far as letting dogs out on the street running loose to terrorize people in whatever packs they form, we need to remember that a large part of the dog population problem stems from human involvement in breeding. As you know we have lots of animals we have not domesticated and their population has not been as affected as our domestic pet population. So the issues are simply not the same.

De-humanization of domestic dog is simply allowing a dog to be dog without twisting or modifying them in attempts to give them human qualities and characteristics. There is a fine line between domesticating animals and humanizing them. I believe there is plenty of research that can be found to support this.

Jason

[Rita Jean]

Agilebasenji little off course here. The Alzheimers it depends on how far along and the moment in time. Most would smile and know if dog had a silly coat on or hat. I am on round two of having Alzheimers live in my home so far this time been over three years and I hope many more to come. Until you have lived with Alzheimers day and night you would never believe the things that make a smile. Try a little coat or just anything just food for thought.

Rita Jean

[AJs Human]

Just read all four of those articles…Neuticles?!? Puh-LEASE!!!

While it's interesting how the genetic material has changed in similar fashion, the main point I drew from all this is dogs have to know their place in the family. It's as I have said before: If they don't know or if they are given the same or higher rank in the family "pack" (which is how they see it) they become confused or aggressive. More often than not, it is aggression.

Whose dog among us has had these issues? Mine only has these issues with other dogs, which is the natural state of being for Alpha attitude dogs. However, he knows that I am alpha and he is to do what I expect with regard to humans. Often, I am able to catch the behavior when it starts with other dogs and curtail it.

As for human involvement in breeding causing the dog population problem, I disagree. It is human involvement in dog feeding which has created this. In the wild, populations are controlled by availability of food and territory. With canis familiaris, it is generally humans who control these issues. Left to their own, those same influences would control the dog population. Am I suggesting we let our dogs go free? Absolutely not. There are enough influences on nature already.

[ComicDom1]

AJ, I can certainly respect that you are on top and in control of your dog. Unfortunately have a good look through the history of this forum alone will indicate that many others might not be. Its unfortunate because not everyone is as skilled or in tune with their pets so there is some aggression toward humans as we attempt to train or get our pets to cooperate with us and behave in the fashion we would like them to.

Here is another little article that I found interesting:

I really think the use of the words Hand Bag Dog describes a lot of what goes on in society today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4227567/RSPCA-says-people-who-dress-up-their-dogs-could-be-prosecuted.html

Jason

[lvoss]

There are also many people who are having problems because they are still using outdated techniques and theories in their interactions with their dogs.

Here is a another good link, http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

[agilebasenji]

@Rita:

Agilebasenji little off course here. The Alzheimers it depends on how far along and the moment in time. Most would smile and know if dog had a silly coat on or hat. I am on round two of having Alzheimers live in my home so far this time been over three years and I hope many more to come. Until you have lived with Alzheimers day and night you would never believe the things that make a smile. Try a little coat or just anything just food for thought.

Rita Jean

Oh yes, I agree, been going to the Alz once a month for years, which is why I do the bandana. I do have an xmas hat/collar. Their therapy dog collars are also fancy and have dangling beads. That's usually enough; heck being there (with or without a dog) is usually enough. The holiday bandana is enough to start a chat about the upcoming holiday.

I promised them no costumes unless we were going to visit kids in a hospital. And I keep my promises I make to my pups. (More humanization?)

[Rita Jean]

Thank you Agilebasenji your a good person must be the humanization LOL…..........

I know your correct the bandana starts a chat I like the fact you keep your promises.

Rita Jean

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

There are also many people who are having problems because they are still using outdated techniques and theories in their interactions with their dogs.

Here is a another good link, http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

And some are having problems because their dog was born with a naturally poor temperament…then compounded by lack of appropriate guidance with how to deal with these problems.

It is incredibly simplistic and inaccurate to assume that people who are having aggression problems with their dogs are at fault for "spoiling" them, or humanizing them.

[lvoss]

Exactly, Andrea, there is no one size fits all reason for why people may have problems with their dogs. That is one reason we are always recommending bringing in an animal behaviorist or trainer who can actually observe what is going on.

[Basenjimamma]

This is a great topic…
This is where we stand..

Dog halloween costumes..my kids get to buy them when they are on sale ($2.50 or less), the dauchshund does mind it so he never wears his, my daughter's schnauzer mix might not love it ( or she might, I just don't understand Schnauzer..), but she sure doesn't mind, she just prances around and loves the attention..
Otis who knows..he has not been in one yet..

As far as dog play dates..it is what it is, dogs playing on a certain date..we never meet up with friends dogs at the park, but have a "Lopez" playdate at a different local..seems to work for socialization and wears them out..What more can you ask for?

The birthday party, we throw each dog a party in our home, only to give them treats and extra love, but no invites, cake or anything like that, just extra yummy food and some treats..oh and we have been known to have some party hats involved..

Presents, yes they all get their own chirstmas presents, mainly because our kids and me too, see them as family, and in our family we give...The dogs love it and the kids love it..win win.

[Rita Jean]

Way to go Basenjimamma, yes I like it tell it like it is.

Rita Jean

[ComicDom1]

@Quercus:

And some are having problems because their dog was born with a naturally poor temperament…then compounded by lack of appropriate guidance with how to deal with these problems.

It is incredibly simplistic and inaccurate to assume that people who are having aggression problems with their dogs are at fault for "spoiling" them, or humanizing them.

While I agree that there can be many causes for aggression and bad behavior in dogs, I do not believe anyone here is being simplistic or inaccurate. There are many factors that affect temperament, and bad breeding is not at fault for all of the problems that people encounter with their dogs. In fact, I would venture to say that genetically 'poor temperament' accounts for far less of the problems than is claimed. It is a known fact that 'nurture' counts for at least as much if not more of personality development than 'nature' in humans. This is bound to be true for dogs as well.

I am not saying that all problems can be overcome with the right training methods, because I know for sure that it is not true. I've owned a dog that was a biter. We never knew why he bit, and he never bit family. We never overcame this, we learned to manage it, by keeping him away from strangers, and muzzling him when necessary for his protection as well as the protection of others. I do not know if his problems stemmed from nature, or from nurture, because he was a rescued stray, and I had no background on him before he came to me.

I think it is convenient for people to say "oh this dog was probably poorly bred and thus has bad temperament." As opposed to taking responsibility for their part in the dog's problems. Once a behavior has become 'set' in a dog's mind, it can be a lot of work to overcome it. Some people choose to look the other way or blame breeding instead of properly dealing with the situation.

To be fair to the animal all medical issues must be fully explored and off the table, and then a hard look must be taken at the 'nurture' part of the equation, before throwing up one's hands and blaming 'nature.'

When it comes to rescue dogs, since we have so little information about where problems stem from that much care, and expertise must be applied to properly manage their situations.

Randa

[Quercus]

@ComicDom1:

It is a known fact that 'nurture' counts for at least as much if not more of personality development than 'nature' in humans. This is bound to be true for dogs as well.

I think it is convenient for people to say "oh this dog was probably poorly bred and thus has bad temperament." As opposed to taking responsibility for their part in the dog's problems. Once a behavior has become 'set' in a dog's mind, it can be a lot of work to overcome it. Some people choose to look the other way or blame breeding instead of properly dealing with the situation.

To be fair to the animal all medical issues must be fully explored and off the table, and then a hard look must be taken at the 'nurture' part of the equation, before throwing up one's hands and blaming 'nature.'

When it comes to rescue dogs, since we have so little information about where problems stem from that much care, and expertise must be applied to properly manage their situations.

Randa

I don't think that it is a "known fact" how much behavior is attributable to nuture vs. nature in any species. That is still a hotly debated subject in the world of psychology, and animal behavior.

I didn't intend to imply that bad behavior is exclusively the fault of bad breeding, I would NEVER suggest such a thing. But I can confidently say there are SOME dogs out there, where the breeders and owners have done everything right, and the dog still just has a challenging temperament. It isn't anybody's fault…it just happens sometimes....just like people with challenging temperament.

But I certainly agree, that regardless of why or how, people need to get qualified, experienced help when they find that they have a challenging dog on their hands. Being a trainer by profession, it wouldn't make any sense for me to say 'well, the dog has a bad temperament, nothing can be done'...and I never meant to come across as if that would be acceptable.

[Nemo]

I wouldn't even say "nuture vs nature"…it's not really an either/or situation but an interplay between the two. As long as we are making suggestions for reading material, the following is a good read if you have the time...it illustrates many examples from the animal world.

http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Via-Nurture-Genes-Experience/dp/0060006781/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256695321&sr=8-1

[agilebasenji]

I would have suggested:

http://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Social-Behavior-John-Scott/dp/0226743381/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256696224&sr=1-1

in reference to nature vs nurture especially in regards to basenjis.