Because by then they should be hormonally mature even if not fully structurally mature. I don't read much research - I follow experience !
Ideally, not at all, but if they MUST be spayed, then let them grow up first.
Tilly's Fanconi Test Results
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*Although I'd love to believe this, it is what we WANT to happen,m but no it does not happen all the time. This should read breeding a carrier to a clear MAY produce clears.
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Right, of course I should have said "may, or can" produce clears…of course with my luck, the whole litter would be carriers....no, wait....with my luck, the wrong test result would have been given to me, and my clear bitch would actually be a carrier....
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Having been in the breed for a 'couple' of years - and also understanding scientific process terminology here is my thought(s).
UK and other European countries have maintained for years that they did not have fanconi, hip dysplasia etc etc (insert breed and insert disease). To disabuse everone of that 'myth' Gonto's once published that he had samples from every country that had basenjis - and all countries had it. He did not divulge names of animals, kennels or people as he had promised confidentiality - but he did say it was beyond the US.
When a scientist makes a statement about "gene pool too small to get it" I believe that is someone interpertation that is their understanding of what they think was said. What was likely said is that "your sample size is too small". which means there are not enough dogs collected to make a blanket statement of the prevalance of the disease.
One thing I have learned with working with my Portuguese Breed and breeders overseas is that they focus on something like "fit for purpose" Those who cannot do what the purpose is don't live (either because of natural result or are eliminated) - so how would you know what disease they carry. I have had tons of breeders tell me that the Podengo has no health issues - well guess what - in the small size they get legg calves PErth just like other small breeds - if they can't hunt rabbits in portugal however - they are killed. End of problem.
Now I'm hearing of some dogs with seizures - thyroid? or something else - who knows no one tests.
BUT I also remember one of the reasons our original gene pool got so small and interrelated in the US was by removing too many dogs from the gene pool with aggressive HA and PRA testing. I think it's smart to know - and smart to use that knowledge to improve the breeds health AND diverstiy.
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My litter was carrier to clear (which was before testing was available) I had three carriers and one clear, I was unlucky, I know of a litter bred this year carrier to clear that had three clear and one carrier, one dog and two bitches, we can't afford to completely discount carriers (obviously only to clear), but I do believe that all of the pups should be tested and the prospective owners told of the results, now that the test is so much simpler and quicker it is much easier to do.
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Khanis - I respect what you say and you do make a good points. I'm sorry that I mentioned my opinion about carriers because it has obviously caused you upset. Yes I have read a great deal abut Fanconi but certainly am always willing to learn. - I have learnt something more on this forum. I do know though that Fanconi syndrome arises from a mutant gene and so could arise at any time. I'm not a geneticist either so have only general understanding of the transmission of genes but have read quite a bit and researched linked marker tests too.
UK KC does take note of research from all over the world - after all science is science in whatever country. Very little research has been done over here on Fanconi Syndrome and so they obviously rely on that done in other countries.
Yes I do know that Fanconi has been around for a long time; in the past the available test was used by some breeders and owners here but now that the current test is available many more use it - I looked through a recent show catalogue and out of 10 breeders only three definitely don't (yet).dmcarty - I quoted exactly what Dr Gonto said and didn't paraphrase. I am interested in your comments on Podengos, a breed fairly new to this country. I have been to several Podengo seminars and two of Portugal's top breeders told us that Perthes disease was one of their health worries so I don't think they are hiding issues here. In my experience too Basenji breeders are aware of health problems but there is not enough open discussion on health; maybe because some people just can't discuss without getting heated. Basenjis have never been bred extensively here and in general are not considered a commercial breed. In the early days there was quite a bit of culling too as they were trying to eliminate what they considered was not correct.
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Before the linkage test, there was no other test? Other then monthly strip testing? So not sure what other test you might be referring to.
I may be misunderstanding your reference to "mutant" gene and that is can show up any time? It has been determined that it is a recessive gene, so it doesn't just show up. Any time you breed a clear, depending on if you use a Carrier or Affected, you will maybe get Carriers (and all Carriers if you use an Affected)… but never Affecteds, as we understand the test at this time.
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Actually Pat - remember the old urine tests that Dr Brown and Dr Bovee were doing - that proved by the way to be not quite accurate. Gee I remember collecting urine and putting it on ice and sending it off Fed Ex hoping that the cooler packs lasted until the sample got where it needed to be.
Patty - I sent you a private message on Podengos you can access once it is approved by clicking on your welcome at the upper right of your screen
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Thank Diane…. yes I do remember, but never considered that a test.... as I understood (since it was before my time) they were not even close to accurate.
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Well it was all we had at the time - although there are some sterling examples of anmals who were considered "clear' via that test (whatever clear was) that turned out to be affected.
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Well it was all we had at the time - although there are some sterling examples of anmals who were considered "clear' via that test (whatever clear was) that turned out to be affected.
That I remember hearing…. with the linkage tests... the results are pretty much in 99% of the tested dogs, what you would expect to see... at least to date... so we are certainly better off then in years prior
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Everytime we choose not to use a dog diversity is lost in our genepool. We lose so much already due to things like popular sire syndrome it would IMO be catastrophic to the breed to further reduce diversity by eliminating all carriers simply because they are carriers. There are far more issues in the breed than just Fanconi and all bottlenecking for one reason or another will only help to express other issues in the breed like a rise in PRA, HD, Hypothyroidism, or some other condition that may currently be quite rare. It is better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations.
I have been sitting back and reading, and while I do agree that its better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations there are a few things bothering me.
Popular Sire Syndrome came about because of what?
It has been asserted that there is a rise in PRA, HD(hip displasia unless I am misunderstanding), and Hypothyroidism. Aren't all of those that have been mentioned genetic? If so, and we understand that these issues are genetic, then why are they on the rise?
I know what I believe the obvious answer to be to the above questions and it does concern me. I also know if we are aware of these other issues and steps have been taken to identify and test for these conditions and they are still on the rise then what hope do we have for any better results in regard to Fanconi?
Jason
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Anyway…................Hope Tilly is doing well and is enjoying the extra attention that these special Basenjis deserve. I will be thinking of Tilly often.
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It has been asserted that there is a rise in PRA, HD(hip displasia unless I am misunderstanding), and Hypothyroidism. Aren't all of those that have been mentioned genetic? If so, and we understand that these issues are genetic, then why are they on the rise?
They may be genetic diseases, but they aren't so clear cut as our fanconi test is. The fanconi is caused by one gene, and it's a simple recessive, which means that the dog must get the bad gene from both parents in order to get the disease. And because of this simpleness, the test can clearly tell you what your dog's status is at an early age and how to work around that for breeding purposes.
HD is different, for example. There is no genetic test for displaysia. And it is believed to involve several genes. Makes it much more difficult to work with. You can xray the hips and "grade" them to see if they are displastic or not. But you can't tell exactly how that will affect offspring of the dog. A dog with excellent hips can produce any kind of hips, and there have been cases of dysplastic dogs producing excellent hips!
There is no genetic test for thyroid either, and some breeds have one for PRA, but most (including Basenjis) do not. So we have to do our best to test before we breed and only use those who have the best possible test results. But most of those tests aren't so exact like the fanconi test. And since many of these things don't show up in a young dog, it helps to wait until the dogs are mature to breed in most cases.
Also keep in mind more and more things are showing up because more and more dogs are getting tested these days. Once you test, now you can see it's there. But when you don't test, you basically ignore the possiblity that there might be something there. For example, just because a dog didn't die from thyroid problems, doesn't mean it didn't have them to one extent or another and may or may not have passed it on to offspring generation after generation. Then all of a sudden you start testing and surprise, dogs are HT!
And of course this is all assuming that breeders put health as a top priority in breeding. But as you I am sure are thinking, unfortunately there are many that just care about other things. sigh
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I understand that Hips can only really be judged by X-ray. I guess the only way and its probably not exact is to know the history of the line and keep records to see if Hip Displasia presents itself in any of the past breedings to know what may or may not happen in a future one. Still from what you are saying, I get there is no sure way to really determine if HD is a possibility or not. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I do find it very hard to accept that there is no real way to test for Thyroid. As much research as has been done on this(at least were humans are concerned) one would think we would have a better handle on this. I do know animals are used in research and I would have hoped by now with all the scientific advances we have had we could have identified a way to test for this.
Its amazing that we have reached a level in stem cell research where we can clone a dog, a farm animal, and possibly more, but we still remain infants in regard to identifying the components that would allow us to have some insight into genetic disorders.
Issues like these make me want to reinforce something I said in the post where I talked about neutering our Basenji. I would encourage everyone to pull a yearly blood panel on their Basenji. At least that way, your Vet has a road map for your dog and also it give you and your Vet a heads up where you might catch an inkling or indication of a problem in its early stages. I know I will include a Thyroid Test for our Basenji just because of what I have read about possible Thyroid issues on this forum.
Although I am not a Breeder and never plan to become one, I do love the breed from my brief exposure to Basenji's and I wish to do all I personally can to help insure I have a healthy dog and provide a good home for the one I currently have and the possible one(or ones) I will have in the future.
Jason
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Tanza - everything I've read on Fanconi indicates that it is a mutation of a particular gene and that's how it arises in the first place (this mutated gene I understand, is what Dr Johnston is trying to identify). I stand to be corrected.
Genes can mutate and are then passed on by heredity - so I believe you are quite correct that it is a recessive gene. I believe that mutations are quite rare but obviously they do occur so hence my comment. I have also read that mutations can be caused by stress (at conception, I assume, but don't know). Is it a possibility that some Basenjis having been 'uprooted' from their Congolese surroundings and brought to completely opposite environment produced this mutation? Just a thought!!
The previous trip test has been clarified by others. As dbcarty said it was all there was then although not totally reliable and I suppose why it was not widely used. However mistakes do occur in all forms of medical testing - we had cases here of women whose breast cancer test results were totally wrng and many suffered becaus of that. There is always human error.
Incidentally I hve seen on Sallyt's web site either an Affected or Carrier result from two tested clear parents. I can't remember who and if I could wouldn't be able to say on this forum but I will check again to make sure.
It's great to be able to discuss these things isn't it? -
It's great to be able to discuss these things isn't it?
I totally agree Patty - its great to see so many people with the good of the breed at heart discussing these problems. Everyone may not always agree with the detail of the way things should be done, but honest and open discussion is the way forward. I am sure all have the best interests of the breed at heart. We are lucky that in comparison to other breeds in general Basenjis are a healthy lot - one only had to look at your lovely old 14 yr old boy still strutting his stuff at the Northern club show to see that.
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I have been sitting back and reading, and while I do agree that its better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations there are a few things bothering me.
Popular Sire Syndrome came about because of what?
It has been asserted that there is a rise in PRA, HD(hip displasia unless I am misunderstanding), and Hypothyroidism. Aren't all of those that have been mentioned genetic? If so, and we understand that these issues are genetic, then why are they on the rise?
I know what I believe the obvious answer to be to the above questions and it does concern me. I also know if we are aware of these other issues and steps have been taken to identify and test for these conditions and they are still on the rise then what hope do we have for any better results in regard to Fanconi?
Jason
I think Kelli's post addressed your queries very well. I just wanted to add that I am not convinced that HD and Thyroid disorders are on the rise in Basenjis. More (lots more) people are testing for both of these things than ever before, so more cases are being diagnosed…that doesn't mean that this stuff wasn't out there prior to testing. Most Basenjis with HD don't display ANY problems, the only way most people would know their B had deformed hips is to do an xray.
And there is a lot of disagreement in the veterinary field whether a 'normal' thyroid diagnosis, is really 'normal' for a Basenji. So, it is confusing at best...
That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be testing, and trying to breed away from these two problems, they should. But it isn't as simple as it seems at times.
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re: Hip Dysplasia - let me offer this thought. In the German Shepherd dog -which has been tested for years - there has been NO decrease in the % of dogs with HD. It started at 60% years and years ago - and is still at 60%. Now that said the total number of dogs are being tested is increasing however - even in breeding programs that test and only breed good or excellent to good or excellent - they still are getting HD.
It is clear that there are additional factors that are not obvious in x-rays that are at play here - which makes some testing rather problematic.
This was an interesting bit of information I got from some long time GSD breeders.
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Patty,
You are correct there has been one or two that a Carrier and/or Affected have shown up, however, I believe in all those cases, the dog was retested and the correct result was found and it is in line with what would be expected. A couple resulted from a blood draw done at the 2007 Nationals in California where the sample became mixed up for whatever reason.. and I believe that 90% have now been retested with the cheek swab and results corrected. In one other case there is an affected that showed up from two clear testings, however it has now been proven that the affected pup is not an offspring of what was submitted to AKC as its parents. And in this particular case, the breeder is IMO a Backyard Breeder that was/is interested in making money, not the welfare of the breed… and proven because the pups registrations sent to AKC turned out not to be from the sire and dam submitted (and this person owned all the sires and dams). Hence we have to remember that the sample sent are only as good are the honesty of the people submitting them.
There has been 2 or 3 dogs that have tested Affected and are or were at an advance age not showing any affects of Fanconi, ie: not spilling... however.... testing of the offspring has resulted in expected results of Carriers or Affecteds, again seemingly proves that the test so far is show the expected results. Since this is a linkage test, we would have to expect that someplace along the way we will find results that maybe be questionable.. but on the whole, it is IMO, proving to be valid. And for the ones that are coming back IND, it is proving that these dogs are most likely Carriers, judging by the results of their offspring.That said, the more dogs that are tested the more it will or will not prove out the results.... as said many times, if you don't test, you don't know... and if you don't know, you can't say you do or do not have Fanconi in any line of Basenji.
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To address HD, PRA, and Thyroid issues, let me just point out one very important factor… unlike Fanconi, the results if not normal for hips (Ex, good, fair) do not have to be published. It is the owners preference to have other then normal results for Hips and Elbows published or not. And I know for a fact of at least 5 Basenjis local and 1 not local that were called dyplastic and the owners did not have the results released to be published. So really we can not say that there is or is not an increase unless all the results are published, good, bad, or indifferent. We can only test and hopefully have some testing history of littermates, offspring, parents, grandparents, etc.
Andrea said that many and most times, Basenjis with hip problems are not noticed and not know unless they have been X-rayed... and for the most part I would agree... except in advanced age.. then it is very noticable, IMO...
Same goes for Thyroid and PRA, if the results are not sent into OFA to be published then who can say if it is on the rise or decrease. PRA is thought to be recessive, but until we have a DNA test we don't know... just like we had with Fanconi.... However if enough people that had or have a dog with PRA would submit the results, then we could in some lines see if the recessive theory holds water... Same with Thyroid.. and as Andrea said there is lots of opinions on what is or is not acceptable... and Thyroid problems are still one of the biggest gray areas, IMO. Again, when breeders do not disclose tests results... how does one know the right or wrong answer?
Until we have a totally open health data base, we don't know... and kudos to the BCOA to have made the Fanconi results mandatory open disclosure on the OFA database.
And yes it is great that all of this can be discussed... ideas exchanges along with data about our Basenjis... and Kudos to our breed for being in the fore front of open, honest exchange of infomation compared to other breeds.
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Tanza - thanks for the explanation. Where a retest is necessary is it done for free? Also - For the ignorant (me) what is IND?
Interesting that dogs tested Affected could be showing no symptoms - do you know how this is possible?
