Looks like you said that difference in your second post, so we are on the same page.
Dog whisperer???
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I agree Pat, the Animal Planet British shows "it's me or…" and also "barking mad" are much more appropriate training strategies for problematic dogs.
As I have said before...a lot of Cesar's opinons and theories I find myself in agreement with...particularly about owners taking responsibility for setting boundaries with their dogs, and not treating dogs like little humans. But I find his techniques for aggressive or fearful dogs barbaric.
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I agree Pat, the Animal Planet British shows "it's me or…" and also "barking mad" are much more appropriate training strategies for problematic dogs.
As I have said before...a lot of Cesar's opinons and theories I find myself in agreement with...particularly about owners taking responsibility for setting boundaries with their dogs, and not treating dogs like little humans. But I find his techniques for aggressive or fearful dogs barbaric.
That is the one, thanks, Barking Mad…. they are great shows... and I agree the idea of setting boundaries and taking responsibility are correct it is the excution of those that bother me... All of us would like to put our emotions in line with our dogs... but they are not humans and do not have human emotions, as much as we would like to think they do....
The two British shows are much more down to earth with real solutions.... and real situations. -
I agree jazzy's mom when people say he is to harsh I'm just like whaaaaaat??? His formula also says 50% exercise 25% discipline and 25% affection. I think the guy is awesome, I have had so many great results with my basenji and his training methods. I like the way he uses energy and body language and I think a big part of of the "reward" is exercise when it comes to CM. I have learned sooo much from his show and am totally hooked. I just cant stress enough how far my dog has come from the day I brought him home and I owe alote of his happiness to Cesar's ways. He's a well rounded calm easy B. I personally think his formula is perfect for my dog he adores the exercise we give him long walks, hiking, 4-5 days a week @ the dog park, dog beaches and so on.< He always says that should be #1 in a dogs life mental and physical stimulation.
Cesar is so cool! -
His methods work for my dogs as well…not just the B's.
The "poke" is really just a touch, as is the "kick". I NEVER strike my dogs
in any way.One of my sisters has been training horses and dogs for .... well, geez, as long as I can remember {she's about 12 yrs older than I}... and has always used positive training. She's the one who turned me on to Cesar.
As for him not thinking dogs need affection, I disagree. He believes they need affection at the appropriate times, but he is very affectionate with his dogs, and encourages affection toward those he trains once they are in a calm state of mind.
But, as has been said, this really is a case of agree to disagree. And that's okay,too.
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Yes he does teach 25% affection but only after exercise and discipline. My boss @ the grooming salon I used to work for turned me on to Cesar. She sent us all to the seminar as sort of a bonus. It was in Beverly Hills and quite interesting the lady in the seat behind me had two Basenji's and we were chatting away sharing pic's and such. Some people even drove from Northern California for it!
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I do not have cable so have only seen a few of Ceasar's shows but all of the ones I saw he used force. When I got my first basenji clicker training was only just starting out in dog training and most of the local trainers that offered "reward" training still used the older force methods but with rewards for getting it right. Nicky never really liked training, he was very shut down by it. When we got our second basenji it was easier to find a clicker trainer and Rally loves training she lights up and always has at the opportunity to work. When I needed to a trainer for Rio I ended up having to find yet another trainer and it was with her that I really hit the jackpot finding someone who not only has instilled a love of working in my young dogs but even got Nicky excited about training. He wants to go to "work", he loves being my demo dog and I know this is because of positive reinforcement training. I still cringe when I see force methods used on dogs because I know how deeply unhappy it made Nicky but I also know that it wasn't until I saw how truly joyful Rally was about training that I understood how deeply it had affected Nicky.
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I've watched the show and yah he sure does have a way with dogs….but has anyone ever seen him work with a Basenji? Ummm I don't think so. His training methods may work with most breeds but we are dealing with a whole different kind of dog. I use some of Cesar's training techniques and other dog trainer techniques. IMO you should customize your training style for what best fits your life and your dog. He will be in my city next month. They are selling tickets. Maybe I'll go and see what he has to say.
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Our local Sunday paper features a column by a dog trainer named John Ross. He always talks about making a noise towards your dog that he spells "Nhaaaa." Kind of like a low growl. He says that this is to imitate the sound a mother dog will make towards her puppy when correcting it. My brother always made that sound when Senji lived with them, and it always made him submissive.
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I have used Cesar's "Shh…" meathod on my Mali and she responds great.
When she's doing something bad I just step towards her and very forcefully make the "shhh.." sound and she knows to stop.
I guess it just depends on your Basenji really...
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I love the show "Its Me or The Dog" totally good methods IMO & she uses rewards for good behavior & no rewards for unwanted behavior. This is different from punishment for unwanted behavior. There's no tugging or pulling or touching…she uses sounds to get the dogs attention like an EH EH in a loud voice. My dogs do respond to that...now they know that EH EH means don't go near the window (they like to watch dogs go by & then go crazy!).
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You know, I watched that show for the first time this weekend after hearing about it here, and now I really don't get it.
There was a small, aggressive dog that wanted to attack every dog it saw at parks, etc. The solution was to take the dog to a park, and walk it rapidly toward another dog and then turn quickly w/out a sound to the dog, and begin to walk back in the opposite direction. The result was that the little dog was jerked around and dragged – while it was still trying to turn to get to the other dog -- along behind the walker. First the instructor did it a few times, then the owner.
How is that NOT rough training? How is that NOT tugging or pulling?
I guess we all see in these methods what we expect to see. As I've said before when it's been said that Cesar Milan "pokes" or "kicks" the dogs that these are just gentle touches -- there's not hard poke, just a touch the neck; no kick, just a touch w/the foot -- which are methods I use w/my own dogs.
I certainly saw punishment and pulling w/the lady from "It's me or the dog", but apparently others view that differently as well.Again, this really is an "agree to disagree" moment because I really do not understand....
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You know, I watched that show for the first time this weekend after hearing about it here, and now I really don't get it.
There was a small, aggressive dog that wanted to attack every dog it saw at parks, etc. The solution was to take the dog to a park, and walk it rapidly toward another dog and then turn quickly w/out a sound to the dog, and begin to walk back in the opposite direction. The result was that the little dog was jerked around and dragged – while it was still trying to turn to get to the other dog -- along behind the walker. First the instructor did it a few times, then the owner.
How is that NOT rough training? How is that NOT tugging or pulling?
I guess we all see in these methods what we expect to see. As I've said before when it's been said that Cesar Milan "pokes" or "kicks" the dogs that these are just gentle touches -- there's not hard poke, just a touch the neck; no kick, just a touch w/the foot -- which are methods I use w/my own dogs.
I certainly saw punishment and pulling w/the lady from "It's me or the dog", but apparently others view that differently as well.Again, this really is an "agree to disagree" moment because I really do not understand....
Was the dog wearing a pinch collar? I don't know, I haven't seen this episode. Could be the difference that the dog was yanking itself on the end of the leash, and handler was walking briskly away. The difference may be the human yanking the dog vs. the dog yanking the dog, again, I don't know since I didn't see it. You are right…most people see what they want to see....
I watched one epsiode of CM...I slowed down the TIVO to watch him swing his right leg around behind his left leg, and the dog on his left to kick it in the butt. It wasn't a touch with the foot. It was a swift kick. No one could have seen it without slowing it down...
You can justify it all you want. A HUGE body of trainers and animal professionals disagree with CM's methods (particularly for aggressive and fearful dogs). A large number of TV watchers and pet owners feel he has the right idea....Again, I prefer to do no harm when training my dogs, or my clients...IOW, I don't want to make problems that I will have to fix later...
As a personal anecdote, I can tell you that I used techniques nearly identical to CM's (they aren't new at all) when we started having problems with Ivy six years ago. Her growling, snapping and biting got worse, and morphed from toward other dogs to towards people. I wish I knew then, what I know now...I would never have used those methods with a fearful/agressive dog.
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We'll all have to agree to disagree-I think everyone and every dog has certain temperments. These temperments are 'transferred' to each dog and human. eg I had a client who had a pitbull who was afraid to walk it on the street-she was fearful this transferred to the dog who had issues with anything that moved. After training HER the dog was a pleasant animal to walk and virtually ignored everything else, including the G Shepherd who wanted to take the pit's head off. Every type of training has a person who believes it is for them and their dog. Agressive training does no one any good-either dog or human. However, I believe some of his methods are of use to certain temperments of dogs. I don't believe his methods are that bad for DOMESTICATED dogs. Unfortunately, Basenji's are independent thinkers and don't do well with this type of training. I would never 'kick' or 'poke' any dog-you just never know what may happen. I find I use many methods-depending on the type of dog and situation-EH EH works fine with a lot of dogs-but not every dog. I find that sometimes CM goes overboard and pushes the dogs too hard. Again, this is MY OPINION. And I usually get shot at for expressing it. As I've said before, you only see what's on the screen-not behind the scenes. And, it makes you wonder.
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@vstripe:
I agree jazzy's mom when people say he is to harsh I'm just like whaaaaaat??? His formula also says 50% exercise 25% discipline and 25% affection. I think the guy is awesome, I have had so many great results with my basenji and his training methods.
I totally agree with Jazzysmom and vstripe here. I think Cesar is absolutely amazing and I adore him.
Has anyone seen the tv show Supernanny? Each show focuses on a family whose kids are out of control and completely disrespect their parents. Bribing the kids with candy and toys (becoming a treat dispenser) may garner temporary obedience but it does not teach a child respect. Supernanny Jo goes in and observes then she teaches the parents how to gain control over their children. When a kid is throwing a tantrum or whatever, it has to sit in the "naughty chair" or a "naughty spot" until it calms down. No one hits the kids or yells at them but if they move the parents pick them up and put them back in the "naughty chair". The parents calm energy and body language teaches the child that the parent is in control. It doesn't take long for the child's behavior to improve. Once the children understand who is in charge, then their behavior can further be improved using positve reinforcement.
Cesar does pretty much the same thing with out of control dogs. He teaches the owners how to gain their dog's respect then once that is established the owner's can follow up with positive reinforcement training.
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You can justify it all you want. A HUGE body of trainers and animal professionals disagree with CM's methods (particularly for aggressive and fearful dogs). A large number of TV watchers and pet owners feel he has the right idea….Again, I prefer to do no harm when training my dogs, or my clients...IOW, I don't want to make problems that I will have to fix later...
This is the only part of what was written that I take offense with.
It implies – at least to me -- that only "pet owners" will approve of Milan's methods, while experienced "trainers" will not. It feels like there's a label of ignorance placed on those who approve of his methods. Obviously people who just "own" pets as opposed to "training" just don't have a clue.
Well, there is also huge body of trainers and animal professionals who approve of Cesar's methods and who have been using them successfully since long before he came on the TV scene. As I have said before, it was my sister a very experienced and successful horse/dog trainer since the 1970's, who first turned my attention to the TV show. And again, neither she, nor I have ever or will ever "do harm" to any of the animals we work with.
I can agree to disagree all day w/no hard feelings. Different strokes for different folks, etc.
Whether or not you agree w/his methods is one thing. But Thinly-veiled Insults of those who disagree is entirely another. -
I totally agree with Jazzysmom and vstripe here. I think Cesar is absolutely amazing and I adore him.
Has anyone seen the tv show Supernanny? Each show focuses on a family whose kids are out of control and completely disrespect their parents. Bribing the kids with candy and toys (becoming a treat dispenser) may garner temporary obedience but it does not teach a child respect. Supernanny Jo goes in and observes then she teaches the parents how to gain control over their children. When a kid is throwing a tantrum or whatever, it has to sit in the "naughty chair" or a "naughty spot" until it calms down. No one hits the kids or yells at them but if they move the parents pick them up and put them back in the "naughty chair". The parents calm energy and body language teaches the child that the parent is in control. It doesn't take long for the child's behavior to improve. Once the children understand who is in charge, then their behavior can further be improved using positve reinforcement.
Cesar does pretty much the same thing with out of control dogs. He teaches the owners how to gain their dog's respect then once that is established the owner's can follow up with positive reinforcement training.
Oh, hee hee, I do love her show. And I am a big fan of her and her methods also.
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I use a lot of Cesar's methods and watch the show constantly for more insight on the dog's way of thinking. I think he's always passing along information that humans are the ones that need to change their way of thinking in order to live in a peaceful pack with dogs. For instance, when a human is trying to make a dog into a person and the human just doesn't understand why their dogs behave the way they do. Alot of it has to do with the way they are treating their dogs.
A few episodes ago, Cesar used Cheese as a motivation tool. I've never seen him do that before. The dog was not reacting to other methods so he found something that the dog loves–cheese. I've used the treat methods on TAlker for 4 years and he still is reactive when he sees others dogs. But he will sit and wait for the treat, but he's never in a calm state. I think that was one of the important things that I learned from Cesar is not to reward the dog when they are in a high state of anxiety/fear/or agressive state.
I think he's also informative when he explains that affection/kisses are not the only way to reward your dog. You reward with play, walks, food--but none of that until they have earned it by being in a calm state of mind.
I think the most important thing to remember is that he loves dogs and his agenda is to help rehabilitate the dogs and rescue dogs so that they are not put down or given up for adoption. He's all about showing people that you can rescue dogs that have a past or behaviorial issues. People just need to learn that dogs are not people so people have to stop trying to make their dogs behave like people.
I watch both shows (Me or the Dog) and she also uses the same methods as Cesar in regards to giving back control to the humans and not allowing the dogs to control the household. It's really shocking when you see how some people have lost totally control of their households.
I think both shows bring an important issue to the front and its that we need to work and train our dogs and its important to do so or else suffer the consequences.
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<_Whether or not you agree w/his methods is one thing. But Thinly-veiled Insults of those who disagree is entirely another.>>
I apologize. Clearly I can't discuss this topic and remain neutral and unemotional. I will just avoid this topic from now on._
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Oh I forgot to add…I took Talker to see Cesar in 2005. We went to his facility. It was truly amazing to walk among 50 dogs and everyone is peaceful as can be (except Talker).
He worked with Talker for about 2 hours but the results were immediate. He did the tap thing on Talker's side and I saw it and it was not a kick. It was a tap with the side of his foot onto the side of Talker's middle section.
When Talker and I walked among the dogs, Talker was the only one who was in an excitable state. The dogs pretty much sniffed him and ignored him. Then Talker calmed down. I was able to walk Talker thru the crowd of dogs without any incident.
I think basically the lesson is that Dogs need to learn how to behave by being with other calm dogs. When Talker is around a calm dog, he brings it down. He always feels the need to push his alpha self on to the other dog. When they don't react, TAlker calms down.
I think if anything I would have loved to have Talker around Cesar's dogs just so that he can pick up their behavior and learn how to be a dog.
I always joke that Talker is really an insecure macho male that always feels the need to prove himself to others. If he was more secure with himself, he'd probably enjoy his dog life more being around other well behaved dogs.
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What I always wondered about Cesar Milans show is how much of the "rehabilitation" is edited out of the show. It seems to me like there is a dog with some kind of problem or whatever and all he does is tell it to sit before walking out the door and letting the owner walk out first, and tires it out by rollerblading with it and all of a sudden it is gentile and obedient. I always feel like his solution is to tire the dog out and then it won't be obnoxious anymore. Just my 2cents. I like watching the show, but I can't say I've gotten much from it.
