For Sale: Basenji pups For Sale in Nampa ID

[Quercus]

If were gonna be all honest and upfront, my question would be: Katy and Linda, do you have problems with Dr. Jo and Lukuru project? Because that is how it appears?

[Nemo]

@Katheris:

Thanks for the clarification Pat. It is your opinion, not Jo Thompson's, that she alone represents a Lukuru Project, not the "Lukuru Basenji Conservateurs" as posted on the current website. It is quite clear from everything on the Conservateur's site that is not her opinion, unless she wishes to clarify that here and on the website

And one last note, there is are other "Lukuru Projects" that Dr. Jo is involved with, just not basenji-focused.

http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/idp/idp/entry/21

[DebraDownSouth]

@Quercus:

Sorry Debra…you are wrong here...completely wrong.

Okay so in your opinion, since I am completely wrong, you think:

P1: She had no need to say who she was because, I guess, everyone on earth and especially who has owned or wanted to own a basenji (ie anyone, not just breeders) should know who she was and her backgrounds based on the name JoT?

I just clicked on your profile, and yeah it says where you are from. I am sorry, but why presume others KNOW who you are, that no other person from DRC might use "JoT" than the great Dr Thompson. Why not just say who you are? Frankly I wouldn't have suspected that the person making that post was the same one whose work I have so admired.

P2. Just coming from DCR is proof of expertise, she had no reason to explain to anyone the work/experiences in addition to just living there.

Your indication that living in the DCR is proof of Manu's (or your) ultimate knowledge of Basenjis before… now you give me a reason to laugh. With a population of over 4 million, do you think that living there makes all those 4 million experts? Really? And even if in a group of 5 "experts," do you think you would get agreement? Really?

P3: Because of her connection to the Lukuru project, she is the guardian and ultimate decision maker for the BREED and her and only her opinion deserves respect; and said experiences gives her the right to attack anyone and make disparaging comments and assign them some underhanded motives for daring have opposing opinions.

Stating what you DID while there, yeah that has validity. But even your involvement in the Lukuru project doesn't make you RIGHT or the ultimate expert on what is right for the breed. People get to have opinions that differ from yours even if you single handedly found, brought every single dog here and funded it down to the penny (which you didn't). It is one thing to acknowledge contribution, however considerable, and another to assume those contributions mean you get to shut down and treat others with disrespect for different views. Nor does involvement in any number of projects, or considered an expert doesn't mean they are always right, doesn't mean they are really knowledgeable, doesn't mean they aren't driving their own "agenda" or "propaganda."

P3: Okay so no one who is an expert is ever wrong; and Linda stated things as facts not her opinion.

Many ideas have been deemed wrong or stupid by vast majority of "experts," then proven that the majority was utterly WRONG and the stupid idea right. She didn't state facts, she stated her OPINION, to which she has as much right as you do.

P4: This entire discussion would have been so much less valuable had she introduced herself, given her opinions and been informative instead of slinging insults and what she did.

_Had you simply stated who you were, your experiences and hers, discussed your VIEWS, great. But to indicate that just being FROM the Congo makes you experts and saying someone who disagrees with someone FROM there is INSULTING is ridiculous.

The attack on Linda was unprofessional, uncalled for. You may have many valid views, sadly the attack blurred any valuable info._

Since this was my OPINION (although it appears you don't agree people have a right to one since I am TOTALLY wrong… I'll leave it.

Btw, I thought her pretending to not be sure who you were was either diplomatic and giving you a nudge to introduce yourself or perhaps a jab at your ego since I am sure she knows most here who are not breeders didn't have a clue and your presumption EVERYONE DID was poke worthy.

[DebraDownSouth]

@Janneke:

Here is a page with evaluations from dogs accepted in 2009: http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/Applicants/List.htm

Again, thanks. I am generally good at finding things and wonder why people ask instead of google on their own, but I have a cold, headache and am just off my game. I will read those with pics to compare and look later!

[Janneke]

@DebraDownSouth:

Again, thanks. I am generally good at finding things and wonder why people ask instead of google on their own, but I have a cold, headache and am just off my game. I will read those with pics to compare and look later!

No problem

[Quercus]

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay so in your opinion, since I am completely wrong, you think:

P1: She had no need to say who she was because, I guess, everyone on earth and especially who has owned or wanted to own a basenji (ie anyone, not just breeders) should know who she was and her backgrounds based on the name JoT?

P2. Just coming from DCR is proof of expertise, she had no reason to explain to anyone the work/experiences in addition to just living there.

P3: Because of her connection to the Lukuru project, she is the guardian and ultimate decision maker for the BREED and her and only her opinion deserves respect; and said experiences gives her the right to attack anyone and make disparaging comments and assign them some underhanded motives for daring have opposing opinions.

P3: Okay so no one who is an expert is ever wrong; and Linda stated things as facts not her opinion.

P4: This entire discussion would have been so much less valuable had she introduced herself, given her opinions and been informative instead of slinging insults and what she did.

Since this was my OPINION (although it appears you don't agree people have a right to one since I am TOTALLY wrong… I'll leave it.

Of course you have a right to your opinion…but you are nitpicking points to try win an argument. The exchange between Linda and JoT was regarding disrepsecting someone that JoT knows personally. Maybe the exchange between them wasn't really for your benefit.

You jump all over people here, without knowing any of the background story. Everybody has hot buttons...no reason for everybody to have a big drama attack because two individuals have some issues to hash out.

[DebraDownSouth]

@Quercus:

According to this webpage, your info is wrong. Not only does it say that Mopaya and Lema have been accepted, it lists their AKC numbers….

http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/Applicants/List2010.htm

Okay so wow… Dr Jo brought the dogs, health checked, got them approved. HELLO OUT THERE ORIGINAL POSTER... this is how to do it (Yes, Andrea, that was mean with dripping sarcasm. I usually try not to ascribe a tone to others, but I'll certainly make sure no one is guessing with mine. )

Nice looking dogs. I am wondering about the very light coloring on Lukuru Lema. Someone mentioned color issues, but wouldn't this color be disfavored as it appears so very light, or is it simply not a good picture? (Okay and kudos to you folks with coat color genetics to learn. Thank goodness Rotties issues are oh yeah, black. Okay a bit more due to gum and marking colors but still...)

[tanza]

@Katheris:

Thanks for the clarification Pat. It is your opinion, not Jo Thompson's, that she alone represents a Lukuru Project, not the "Lukuru Basenji Conservateurs" as posted on the current website. It is quite clear from everything on the Conservateur's site that is not her opinion, unless she wishes to clarify that here and on the website

Your next to last statement is misleading, implying the Lukuru Basenjis, i.e., more than one, has been presented, and subsequently accepted into the AKC stud book. Lukuru Amisi is the only one so far, presented and accepted in 2009. Mopaya, the dam of the litter on the website has not yet been accepted, nor the two other bitches. Where they stand in the application process as to when and/or if they are presented is of course the business of the Conservateur group as a whole.

Again, nothing JoT wrote in that post addressed the typiness of her imports or any others. If she wishes to share her opinion publically, she certainly is welcome to do so, here, or in any other discussion group.

If you wish to discuss the typiness of specific imports, please specify the dogs to which you refer. "Recent imports" is too vague, as many dogs from many regions have been imported. Perhaps this should be migrated to a new thread?

Katy

Well, as already pointed out you are incorrect about the number of Lukuru dogs accepted and further the litter that was bred IS eligible for AKC registration.

I don't think that the Lukuru Basenjis as far as type needs to be discussed as they have been accepted into the stud books, judged/evaluated by a panel of judges/breeders accepted, put up by BCOA for a membership vote and accepted.

Remember if you go back to the beginning of the thread (and yes it did get hi-jacked), it was about the dogs that Marie brought back and if those are of Basenji Type. And since I am afforded to have my opinion, I do not feel that they are….

[Quercus]

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay so wow… Dr Jo brought the dogs, health checked, got them approved. HELLO OUT THERE ORIGINAL POSTER... this is how to do it (Yes, Andrea, that was mean with dripping sarcasm. I usually try not to ascribe a tone to others, but I'll certainly make sure no one is guessing with mine. )

Nice looking dogs. I am wondering about the very light coloring on Lukuru Lema. Someone mentioned color issues, but wouldn't this color be disfavored as it appears so very light, or is it simply not a good picture? (Okay and kudos to you folks with coat color genetics to learn. Thank goodness Rotties issues are oh yeah, black. Okay a bit more due to gum and marking colors but still...)

I mentioned color issues…and no, shade of red is not an issue....the color issues I was referring to are more like piebald (mostly white, with islands of color).

[Janneke]

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay so wow… Dr Jo brought the dogs, health checked, got them approved. HELLO OUT THERE ORIGINAL POSTER... this is how to do it (Yes, Andrea, that was mean with dripping sarcasm. I usually try not to ascribe a tone to others, but I'll certainly make sure no one is guessing with mine. )

Nice looking dogs. I am wondering about the very light coloring on Lukuru Lema. Someone mentioned color issues, but wouldn't this color be disfavored as it appears so very light, or is it simply not a good picture? (Okay and kudos to you folks with coat color genetics to learn. Thank goodness Rotties issues are oh yeah, black. Okay a bit more due to gum and marking colors but still...)

I think she's genetically a normal sable, just as our normal R&W.. Maybe a bit light, but not too light, I think.

[tanza]

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay so wow… Dr Jo brought the dogs, health checked, got them approved. HELLO OUT THERE ORIGINAL POSTER... this is how to do it (Yes, Andrea, that was mean with dripping sarcasm. I usually try not to ascribe a tone to others, but I'll certainly make sure no one is guessing with mine. )

Nice looking dogs. I am wondering about the very light coloring on Lukuru Lema. Someone mentioned color issues, but wouldn't this color be disfavored as it appears so very light, or is it simply not a good picture? (Okay and kudos to you folks with coat color genetics to learn. Thank goodness Rotties issues are oh yeah, black. Okay a bit more due to gum and marking colors but still...)

Yes, they are a lighter red and that comment was even mentioned in the evaluations. However, according to the panel assembled to judge these dogs upon the sending in of the application to be admitted to AKC, this was not enough of a factor to over ride the other factors being considered. (hmmm that didn't make a lot of sense, but you all get the drift…)

And if you look around the country and many Basenjis from American Bred dogs, you will find a lot of different colors of red... and even some that are just as light....

[Katheris]

Thank you Nemo and Andrea for the corrections! I really appreciate it being pointed out politely and quickly. I apologize for any confusion I caused.

Andrea, I cannot answer for Linda, you will have to ask her directly. Personally, I am impressed by the work the Lukuru Conservateurs are doing, and have absolutely no problem with their collective work.

Katy

[DebraDownSouth]

_@Quercus:

Of course you have a right to your opinion…but you are nitpicking points to try win an argument. The exchange between Linda and JoT was regarding disrepsecting someone that JoT knows personally. Maybe the exchange between them wasn't really for your benefit.

You jump all over people here, without knowing any of the background story. Everybody has hot buttons...no reason for everybody to have a big drama attack because two individuals have some issues to hash out.

_
I went back to the thread, and here are the actual words of the only 3 posters mentioning Manu (other than me):
_@Patty:

Interesting that this posting is about Avuvis - I understood from Manou who I believe is an acknowledged expert on Avuvis that they were not Basenjis but very different and distinct breed.

She came over to Crufts one year and stood beside me near the Basenji ringside discussing the two breeds and categorically stated that Avuvis are different from Basenjis.

I am now confused and perhaps somebody could enlighten me as we don't have Avuvis in the UK.

@lvoss:

You are right that term Avuvi is used to describe a breed of African dog that is separate from Basenjis. There are several people including Manu that have Avuvi dogs and do not claim that these dogs are Basenjis but are a related breed with some similar traits but some distinct differences….

@sinbaje:

Here are my thoughts.

As for Manu being an expert - can anyone show/list for me her credentials saying as much as I can not find anything on the 'net. As far as I know she is no more of an expert then Rose Marie - as both have been to Africa and both own Native dogs from a similar region. As always - I like to have as many facts as possible before leaping to a conclusion. Thanks.

_

Andrea, I go by actual words, not what you or anyone ascribe the meaning to be.

Linda's words attacked no one.

JoT absolutely attacked Linda.

Linda questioned Manu being the ultimate expert. That isn't disrespecting, that is an opinion and asking for verification. And if you read sarcasm into her questioning, so be it– but that doesn't make it disrespectful nor does it make the question invalid. What makes Manu THE expert? The only response Jo gave was because she is from the Congo and others think she is one. Fine, except that doesn't MAKE her THE ultimate and only expert. It doesn't. People can disagree with her or think she is wrong. If someone thinks the Avuvi should be included with Basenjis and someone else thinks they shouldn't, it is ultimately just opinions.

And here is a thought. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't breed Basenji, not going to breed them. I am not a guardian of the US development of the breed. But for someone to bring their road-rage onto a board and go after a member is clearly not okay. It demeans the person doing it more than the person they did it to.

And ultimately (yeah I like that word), the bottom line is simply that you don't get respect by spewing venom and accusations. On any virtual board, your posts should be judged not by some off board history but how you conduct yourself on that board. And in this case, Dr Jo, imho, behaved badly. The issue is not about expertise, it is about the right of others to have opinions. I don't know what Linda thinks about the Avuvis. I don't care, actually. But nothing she posted was worthy of that attack. Had I, even though I have no history with JoT, posted the same thing, I suspect I would have been attacked and accused of the same nefarious motives.

I am not so impressed with most "experts" in the dog world, whether it is trainers, breeders or anyone. (Right now many, including trainers, are bowing to and worshiping at the feet of an abusive trainer, they did before at Kohlers. Doesn't make them right.) I may think highly of, agree with or whatever, but at no point is someone so much an expert that their OPINION invalidates all others. You deal with hard facts, yeah there are rights and wrong (usually). But all this abuse over an opinion or asking a question?

So yes, I will jump in with disregard to history because history should be dealt with privately, off the forum, or with said history explained. Otherwise, I'll continue to judge and respond to posts based purely on what is written. And I'll continue to think that is precisely the appropriate response.

[Quercus]

@DebraDownSouth:

I went back to the thread, and here are the actual words of the only 3 posters mentioning Manu (other than me):

Andrea, I go by actual words, not what you or anyone ascribe the meaning to be.

Linda's words attacked no one.

JoT absolutely attacked Linda.

Linda questioned Manu being the ultimate expert. That isn't disrespecting, that is an opinion and asking for verification. And if you read sarcasm into her questioning, so be it– but that doesn't make it disrespectful nor does it make the question invalid. What makes Manu THE expert? The only response Jo gave was because she is from the Congo and others think she is one. Fine, except that doesn't MAKE her THE ultimate and only expert. It doesn't. People can disagree with her or think she is wrong. If someone thinks the Avuvi should be included with Basenjis and someone else thinks they shouldn't, it is ultimately just opinions.

And here is a thought. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't breed Basenji, not going to breed them. I am not a guardian of the US development of the breed. But for someone to bring their road-rage onto a board and go after a member is clearly not okay. It demeans the person doing it more than the person they did it to.

And ultimately (yeah I like that word), the bottom line is simply that you don't get respect by spewing venom and accusations. On any virtual board, your posts should be judged not by some off board history but how you conduct yourself on that board. And in this case, Dr Jo, imho, behaved badly. The issue is not about expertise, it is about the right of others to have opinions. I don't know what Linda thinks about the Avuvis. I don't care, actually. But nothing she posted was worthy of that attack. Had I, even though I have no history with JoT, posted the same thing, I suspect I would have been attacked and accused of the same nefarious motives.

I am not so impressed with most "experts" in the dog world, whether it is trainers, breeders or anyone. (Right now many, including trainers, are bowing to and worshiping at the feet of an abusive trainer, they did before at Kohlers. Doesn't make them right.) I may think highly of, agree with or whatever, but at no point is someone so much an expert that their OPINION invalidates all others. You deal with hard facts, yeah there are rights and wrong (usually). But all this abuse over an opinion or asking a question?

So yes, I will jump in with disregard to history because history should be dealt with privately, off the forum, or with said history explained. Otherwise, I'll continue to judge and respond to posts based purely on what is written. And I'll continue to think that is precisely the appropriate response.

I am just going to have a short answer, because I refuse to argue every single sentence and statement. My husband once said to me "you were never in debate club, were you?" 'cause I just can't stand the point by point crap.

Nobody said Manou was THE expert…nobody said Jo was THE expert....nobody said Rose Marie was THE expert....nobody said Linda was THE expert....there can be lots of experts. I don't know Manou...I would never dare to question her expertise. I DO know Jo, and I believe in her expertise...she knows more about Africa and the area in which Basenjis are native to than all of us put together. She has spent more time in Africa than all of us put together. And she has done more research about the history of Basenjis in the Western World than most of us put together. I am simply not going to disregard someone's knowledge and intent due to an angry forum post. Nor will I jump on someone's drama bandwagon without knowing all the details of the backstory.

[stazy]

I can never follow arguments on here. They get too complicated. lol

[DebraDownSouth]

@Quercus:

I am just going to have a short answer, because I refuse to argue every single sentence and statement. My husband once said to me "you were never in debate club, were you?" 'cause I just can't stand the point by point crap.

…I am simply not going to disregard someone's knowledge and intent due to an angry forum post. Nor will I jump on someone's drama bandwagon without knowing all the details of the backstory.

Andrea, lol on your husband. Sorry, I like debate.. point by point really keeps things clear to me.

However, let me say one more thing… I am not disregarding Dr Jo's knowledge, or contributions (either to dogs, bonobos or the people of the DRC). But that doesn't excuse the attack, no history needed.

[sinbaje]

I feel like Linda Blair from the Exorcist - my head is spinning here.<lol>

Andrea - how did we go from message #114 - where you you replied to each of my questions (which I appreciate) in such a direct and professional manner even ending with:

I have no personal issues with anything you have posted here.

…. to message #119 where you replied to the subsection of the same question with what I felt was a rather critical -

Well….I guess so...if open, honest and very civil includes written words DRIPPING with sarcasm.

Can you elaborate/give an example of the dripping with sarcasm part (apart from the sarcastic humor of course as I am terribly guilty of THAT!) as I just don't see it and feel I am being misunderstood perhaps??

If were gonna be all honest and upfront, my question would be: Katy and Linda, do you have problems with Dr. Jo and Lukuru project? Because that is how it appears?…...

...no reason for everybody to have a big drama attack because two individuals have some issues to hash out.

Honestly? I think the Lukuru dogs are awesome additions to the gene pool as they ooze old style breed type. It will be fun to watch how they are integrated into the domestic gene pool just as I have watched the Avongaras, and I wish them all the best!

Now then, I am really not sure how there can be an 'appearance of anything' based solely on my original post to this thread.

I had no idea Jo was on this forum. How in the world could I? In 3 years she has not posted a single post, until she decided to show me (and the rest of the group) the error of my ways yesterday - in her opinion of course - to what I thought was a pretty benign post sharing my opinions about the subject of native dogs with a query at the end asking for credentials of a presumed expert.

Andrea - you are the one who talks about hot buttons, you talk about how I tend to ask questions that piss people off, and you talk about Jo and I as though we have issues known to you. How is it you know so much and I know so little?

As stated I have never met Jo face to face that I can recall. Our private email exchanges have extended to basenjis that I can recall and nothing more. At least on my end - I have no issues at all with regard to her and I am not sure how my posts could even infer I do.

You and I have maybe met once Andrea - not sure as I used to confuse you with Brenda Phillips and certainly you and I have never had any private email exchanges except re: ASP CDs or when I was hoping to do a virtual standard with Eunice. So throwing your statement back at you -

If were gonna be all honest and upfront, my question would be:

• who is whispering in your ear and possibly obscuring impartiality towards me about hot buttons, issues needing to be hashed out and questions that piss them off in relations to me? I figure it is either that (someone whispering in your ear) or else you have all of these personal issues with me yourself. In which case - I would love to be able to address them head on and perhaps correct them if possible - on or off forum - your choice.</lol>

[tlish]

wow! seeing those native dogs was very interesting. seeing some of the dogs here (http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/A…s/List2010.htm), i now can see clearly how little i know about the basenji type. the stocky snout and non-curly tail would have totally led me to believe that those bottom two were not basenjis.

[Patty]

Hey, this thread started with Avuvis being advertised for sale!

Why do so many people have to read insults into the written word? Perhaps being English I mistake the nuances in the words of people from other countries as I'm sure that they may in mine. I read no insults into JoT's comments.

So back to the original thread I find the Avuvis very interesting and found Manu (I now know her proper name, but she introduced herself to me as Manu) as extremely knowledgeable on the breed. The fact that this other lady advertised Avuvi puppies on a Basenji site suggests to me that she hasn't the knowledge that Manu has.

I agree that just because someone is born and lives in a country doesn't always make them knowledgeable about that country's native dogs. But if that person has an interest in dogs they normally do get to know about their native ones intimately and can gather information that sometime visitors to their country can't.

The UK Kennel Club is much more reticent nowadays in accepting new imports into a breed and usually will only accept dogs recognised as that breed in their countries of origin if that country has a recognised registration system.

Looking at some of the dogs now accepted into the Basenji breed I'm sure that were the KC to have the same system as the US I certainly wouldn't have certified some of the dogs which have been accepted there. I don't offer this as a criticism so please don't take it as so - to each his own after all.

I have been involved in Basenjis for many years and have actually seen some of the offspring of the dogs originally imported from the then Congo. A few years ago I saw a video of one of the visits to Central Africa to bring back some dogs and I was struck by how very different those native puppies were from those I'd seen. The same thing struck me when I've viewed Avuvi puppies. When viewing the pictures of the Lukuru Basenjis and puppies I could see our early imports there. Admittedly seeing pictures is not the same as seeing them in the flesh.

Further to a comment that a previous poster (I can't remember who) made that all breeds derived from mongrels - I must totally disagree and this is not borne out by others' researches.

[DebraDownSouth]

@Patty:

Why do so many people have to read insults into the written word? Perhaps being English I mistake the nuances in the words of people from other countries as I'm sure that they may in mine. I read no insults into JoT's comments.

Further to a comment that a previous poster (I can't remember who) made that all breeds derived from mongrels - I must totally disagree and this is not borne out by others' researches.

Last comment response.. not sure if you mean me but by mongrels I mean dogs without a stud book or "breed".. and I did state many had a type or whatever thanks to isolation etc.

For the rest, come on. You speak English and you found no insult in:

@JoT:

**Good grief. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. You did in fact jump to a conclusion and posted without any information.
**

Your comment is a gross untruth of Manu (her given name is Emmanuelle Occansey).

Why do you think that you can belittle her authority?

In fact, if you had taken a moment to think before you posted,

Your statement is an insult to Africans and nothing more than propaganda to promote your own agenda.
Jo