Coat Color Inheritance in basenji

[Monika]

I understand little English.Enter pedigree dog it will be easier for me

http://www.pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/

[misspodhradsky]

the pedigree of her mom and dad are not on there. I have the pedigree in paper form but its not on the Zande site. How do you put them on there? Im not sure how you go about doing that.

[Quercus]

@misspodhradsky:

ok. So this is what i have found out by looking back at the pedigree of my girl.

MOTHERS SIDE starting with mothers color:
RD&WH (d)
BLK&WH(s) and RD&WH(d)
TRI (s), BLK&WH (d). and RD&WH(s),RD&WH(d)
RD&WH(s), TRI(d), RD&WH(s), BLK&WH(d)
and RD&WH(s), RD&WH(d),BRDL&WH(s), TRI(d)

FATHERS SIDE starting with the color of the father:

BLK&WH (s)
RD&WH(s),*BLK&WH(d)
TRI(s),RD&WH(d) and ~BRDL&WH(s),~BLK&WH(d)
TRI(s),RD&WH(d),RD&WH(s), unknown(d)
and TRI(s), BRDL&WH(d), BLK&WH(s), unknown (d)

• this dog has a black saddle
  ~ This dog has a black mask
  (d) this is the mother (dam)
  (s) this is the father (sire)

Ok. So I was just wondering what her coloring would be? How would you put her into that strange code lol. Just curious. Thanks. t would be interesting to know.

I don't really understand your question…but using your coding...how could a black/white dog have a black mask or black saddle?

As far as whether a dog carries "fula" genes or "recessive black" genes or whatever you want to call them, you can only know by what they produce (or if it is apparent)...my understanding is that if you have them genetically tested they show as genetically tricolored. Hopefully Lisa will jump in, because she has a bunch of knowledge about this topic.

[misspodhradsky]

sorry i didnt make it clear. Im not sure how to ask it. lol Im just wondering everyone is talking about using codes like this : D - not dilute d- dilute
Y - Red y - tri
K - Black K^br - brindle k - neither black nor brindle
Red and White - DDkkYY, DDkkYy, DdkkYY, DdkkYy
Black and White - DDKkYY, DDKkYy, DDKkyy, DDKKYY, DDKKYy, DDKKyy,

I was just wondering how everone figured out what their dogs were. What do the letters mean and how to you determine what your dogs "code" is. its an interesting topic to me and id like to learn more about it.

And no I understand the Fula thing. They have a fula puppy when the mom and dad arent black. I dont think there is a fula in the background. i was just wondering about the main "code" and i just wanted to see what she would be and how to determine it. I put the colors of the family tree above (which is the mumble jumble i had posted with only colors) these were the colors of the family for 3 years back. 1 one was her mom and dad. the second two were her grandparents. and so on and so forth.

its not a huge deal to figure out what she is, like i said it was just an interesting topic and people were saying what their dogs were and i just wanted to know what mine was

Oh and the black mask and black saddle were just on the AKC website under their numbers…they were the only 2 that said something like that so i included it just incase it was important. Maybe the others just never put it and these ones did or whatever but idk i just put what the information told me

[Quercus]

@misspodhradsky:

sorry i didnt make it clear. Im not sure how to ask it. lol Im just wondering everyone is talking about using codes like this : D - not dilute d- dilute
Y - Red y - tri
K - Black K^br - brindle k - neither black nor brindle
Red and White - DDkkYY, DDkkYy, DdkkYY, DdkkYy
Black and White - DDKkYY, DDKkYy, DDKkyy, DDKKYY, DDKKYy, DDKKyy,

I was just wondering how everone figured out what their dogs were. What do the letters mean and how to you determine what your dogs "code" is. its an interesting topic to me and id like to learn more about it.

And no I understand the Fula thing. They have a fula puppy when the mom and dad arent black. I dont think there is a fula in the background. i was just wondering about the main "code" and i just wanted to see what she would be and how to determine it. I put the colors of the family tree above (which is the mumble jumble i had posted with only colors) these were the colors of the family for 3 years back. 1 one was her mom and dad. the second two were her grandparents. and so on and so forth.

its not a huge deal to figure out what she is, like i said it was just an interesting topic and people were saying what their dogs were and i just wanted to know what mine was

Oh and the black mask and black saddle were just on the AKC website under their numbers…they were the only 2 that said something like that so i included it just incase it was important. Maybe the others just never put it and these ones did or whatever but idk i just put what the information told me

Those codes are a description of the genes of the dog. They are arbitrary letters given to alleles to describe a dog. I know someone out there has better terminology for what I am describing. A upper case letter describes the dominant allele, and the lower case the recessive allele. Each letter describes one gene on a chromosome. So in each pairing, if there is an uppercase shown (dominant), that gene is expressed, if there is no upper case (recessive), the alternate gene is expressed. Because in the example above there are three locations (or letters) discussed, they can act on each other…so black can mask red. And brindle can be present in any of the other combinations. I have not heard if we have identified dilute in Basenjis?

Am I helping you understand at all? or do you already get all this stuff?

[Quercus]

And the fula thing is not that simple. In the US we describe a tri with bars through the cheek patches, with our without pips over the eyes, as a fula tri. And a black that may or may not (usually does) have some bleeding, or evidence of tan where the tan usually is on a tri, is called a fula black. These dogs may or may not come from two red dogs. But a genetically black basenji (Kk, or KK) cannot come from two red parents. And that is why most people feel that fula tris and blacks (at least as termed in the US) are genetically tri variations.

And seriously…this is not my area of expertise, so people correct me if I am wrong.

[etzbseder]

To put the pedigree on the Zande site, you just have to email what you know to the woman in charge of the site. (I forgot her name). She also can look up AKC info if you give that to her.

[misspodhradsky]

o ok i understand. Ya i mean i dont know ALOT about it, just as a general thing, i knew that a Fula black came from parents that were not black. I knew that in order to create a black puppy (not fula or recessive) it had to have a black parent. that is all i knew (or read anyways lol) and o ok i didnt know that. Ill have to contact the owner of the site and see if we can get them on there. Thanks!

but anyways does anyone have any idea how to help me? or answer my question?

[misspodhradsky]

Quercus. Thanks for trying to explain. it helped a little but i still dont really get it. How do you know which is the dominant and recessive? So if my girls mom is a red and her dad is a black. the dad will have a dominant K and her mom will have a dominate Y? And how do you add all the other letters in there? Your explaining is helping I believe tho. thanks so much for helping!

[Quercus]

@misspodhradsky:

Quercus. Thanks for trying to explain. it helped a little but i still dont really get it. How do you know which is the dominant and recessive? So if my girls mom is a red and her dad is a black. the dad will have a dominant K and her mom will have a dominate Y? And how do you add all the other letters in there? Your explaining is helping I believe tho. thanks so much for helping!

Well, in the code notation, you know if the allele is dominant by whether it is upper case, or lower case. In real life, you know because you committed it to memory based on someone else's research. I *know that red (Y) is dominant to tri because of countless generations of that being the case with breedings.

So every being is given one set of alleles from the mom, and one from the dad, that come together to make an entire gene.
If your girl is red? right? the simplest assumption is that she is DDkkYY (pure for red)or DDkkYy(tri factored) So because we don't have dilute indentified in Basenjis all of the them should be DD, her dad had to be Kk because he gave her a recessive k, and her mom was clearly kk because she was red. Her mom and dad may have been RR or Rr, and we wouldn't know until a tri offspring popped out. If they were both Rr, they could both donate a r and end up with a tri puppy…that would look like this: DDkkYy

[dcmclcm4]

To have the pedigree information put in the Basenji Database, e-mail Sally Wallis at sally.wallis@btopenworld.com with all the information. If none of the dogs in the pedigree are in the database you will have to give her all of the information. Please include registered name, registration number and registry, date of birth, color, sex-male or female, and if the dog you want registered has been bred give her the information for the sire of the pups and the pups. If you know any siblings/relatives and they are not in the database, give her that information too.

It does not matter what registry the dog may have and it is important to have non-AKC registered dogs in the database as one cannot find the information about them. The other registries such as APRI, CKC-Continental Kennel Club, UABR, etc. do not have an open registry like the AKC. She also accepts non-registered dogs.

Jennifer

[misspodhradsky]

@Quercus:

Well, in the code notation, you know if the allele is dominant by whether it is upper case, or lower case. In real life, you know because you committed it to memory based on someone else's research. I *know that red (Y) is dominant to tri because of countless generations of that being the case with breedings.

haha ya ill have to commit it to my memory too hehe Thank you for this information. It is starting to become more clear

ok so if Y is a dominant trait to y, then that means ion order to whelp a tri puppy, since red is dominant, or unless the mother carries that recessive tri, A tri parent has to be present in the breeding?

@Quercus:

So every being is given one set of alleles from the mom, and one from the dad, that come together to make an entire gene.

this makes alot of sense to me now! lol i never understood where all the things came from. but now i understand you get the information from both parents (wow i feel stupid because thats just common sense haha)

@Quercus:

If your girl is red? right? the simplest assumption is that she is DDkkYY (pure for red)or DDkkYy(tri factored) So because we don't have dilute indentified in Basenjis all of the them should be DD, her dad had to be Kk because he gave her a recessive k, and her mom was clearly kk because she was red. Her mom and dad may have been RR or Rr, and we wouldn't know until a tri offspring popped out. If they were both Rr, they could both donate a r and end up with a tri puppy…that would look like this: DDkkYy.

yes she is a red. ok so k is neither black nor brindle. So you have to fill the space in with another k right? so that is where you get the Kk KK or kk? and then DD is the dilute and since there isnt one in basenjis (or that has been found) then its DD. and then kk would be a red because its neither black nor brindle and Kk is black since the K is dominant for black gene. correct? ok and then the Y is the red. so…Do all dogs have the Y gene? even blacks? this is the part that i guess i get confused. ok i think am i starting to get this tho.

Thank SOO much Quercus! its really helping me out and i am very excited to learn about things like this! it excites me haha

[tanza]

You do not need a Tri to get a Tri, but you need two Reds that carry the Tri gene. When we bred my Maggii, who we thought might be Tri factored to a for sure Tri Factored dog, we got 3 reds and 3 tris. If one of the parents are pure for red (Y), you will not get any Tris, you will most likely get Reds that are Tri factored

[etzbseder]

Alright my turn. I missed the black connection in there. If tri-factored reds or tris make tris, Can blacks make tris?

[agilebasenji]

This may help if you're a visual learner:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_2.htm

It makes it much clearer in my mind.

[Quercus]

@etzbseder:

Alright my turn. I missed the black connection in there. If tri-factored reds or tris make tris, Can blacks make tris?

Yes..each gene that is represented by the letter pairing is at a different location on the chromosome…so think of it this way. YY (pure for red) Yy (looks red, carries tri, also called trifactored) or yy (tri). Every Basenji has ONE of these combinations. Then every Basenji has KK (black Basenji) or Kk (black basenji that can produce a not black basenji) and kk (not black basenji) Brindle is an on/off gene, so it cannot be ...you have to have brindle to get brindle. So, in other words, every Basenji is either red or tri, and the other genes cause that color to be masked, or covered over with their expression.

There are tri-factored blacks, and tri-factored brindles...which is what makes it so difficult for people who are trying NOT to breed trindles.

[misspodhradsky]

Ok now i have a question. I am going to put the colors on here and see if someone can help me determine how i would go about seeing what she is.

Mom is a red and white. Dad is a black and white.
Moms mom and dad are Red and White and Black and white
Dads mom and dad are red and white and black and white.

if you need further back i can go. but i guess i still dont understand how to for sure do that part. I am starting to get where everything comes from but i cant for some reason put it into use! lol

[misspodhradsky]

@Quercus:

Yes..each gene that is represented by the letter pairing is at a different location on the chromosome…so think of it this way. YY (pure for red) Yy (looks red, carries tri, also called trifactored) or yy (tri). Every Basenji has ONE of these combinations. Then every Basenji has KK (black Basenji) or Kk (black basenji that can produce a not black basenji) and kk (not black basenji) Brindle is an on/off gene, so it cannot be ...you have to have brindle to get brindle. So, in other words, every Basenji is either red or tri, and the other genes cause that color to be masked, or covered over with their expression.

OH! ok this makes ALOT more sense to me now! So they HAVe to have a Y and they HAVE to have a K and then…dont they have to have the D? but the break down of KK Kk and kk and then the YY Yy and yy is sooo much easier to follow now! Thank you Quercus! I didnt know you HAD to have a brindle to make a brindle. So Brindle is a recessive then?
WOW that makes soo much sense te more i read! haha Thank you!!

@Quercus:

There are tri-factored blacks, and tri-factored brindles…which is what makes it so difficult for people who are trying NOT to breed trindles.

Ok but this i guess im not sure what this means. what is a tri factored brindle and a tri factored black have to do with breeding trindles. Trindles are the ones that have like a weird tri colored appearance but have like a brindle pattern on their cheeks, right? or brindle on their body? (which makes sense it would be a TRI-briNDLE lol wow im stupid sometimes haha!) but anyways how does having those matter?

@tanza:

You do not need a Tri to get a Tri, but you need two Reds that carry the Tri gene. When we bred my Maggii, who we thought might be Tri factored to a for sure Tri Factored dog, we got 3 reds and 3 tris. If one of the parents are pure for red (Y), you will not get any Tris, you will most likely get Reds that are Tri factored

ok ya that is what i thought. You have to have either a tri parent in the breeding OR you have to have two parents with the tri recessive gene (or maybe its not recessive that is just what i thought) but ok thank you Oh ya ok i think i remember reading somewhere that the pure red you cant get anything but reds but possibly with the tri factor. it makes sense. thank you

[misspodhradsky]

@agilebasenji:

This may help if you're a visual learner:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_2.htm

It makes it much clearer in my mind.

This is so funny because I am REALLLY good at Punnett squares but i guess i only am good at them if i know the beginning part. Since i cant figure out how to determine what she is, i dont know what to put at the top and along the side.

Would it be like this as an example

K k
Y KY Yk
y Ky ky

but i thought there were only similar letters with eachother? idk this i guess confused me more lol thanks for the link tho

[lvoss]

You have to do a 16 square punnet square. So if both are tri factored then mom is kkYy and dad is KkYy then you need to find the gametes produced for each. Mom can produce kY and ky so you would have kY, kY, ky, ky for her side of the punnet. Dad can produce KY, Ky, kY, ky.