Good luck with your list Khalani, Wonder if I should get Kaiser to write one up.
Jolanda and Kaiser
He's Arriving On Saturday!
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To some extent yes, but fraud is fraud (if you can prove it).
Fraud would be a criminal case not a civil case. Fraud depending on the state would be one of the reasons the court may grant more than the purchase price of the animal but that varies from state to state and first you have to prove it.
As for putting in writing "testing", that is tricky too. If they said parents were "tested" for Fanconi that could mean a number of things. Many BYBs claim their stock is "tested" when in fact all they do is strip testing which only reflects the status of the dog on the day not is genetic state and therefore its ability to pass the trait to offspring. Most contracts are very simplistic and only garuntee the puppy's health for the first 72 hours which is short end of the incubation period for most diseases so doesn't really even protect the buyer from getting a dog with Parvo, Distemper, etc, let alone late onset disorders.
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That was going to be exactly my comment… saying they were "tested" for Fanconi can mean strip testing, unless you have it in writing that they were DNA tested and in that case you can verify that on line, so if someone didn't do that, I don't think that would hold up. Even more, take the case of something like a Coloboma or Juvenile Catatracts, these can't be found by a regular Vet's exam... so lets say you take the pup home and then go to a Board Certified Ophth, who finds these?... Well if the regular Vet called the pup healthly, and you didn't specify vet exam by a specialist, then again I think you are out of luck.
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I further agree. We need to be kinder to people on the forums. Our goal should be to gently educate, not berate. I try to put myself in the other person's shoes and respond how I would prefer someone talk to me. It helps keep the conversation calmer and when people are calm they usually absorb info better.
Can we talk more about this?
I realize this conversation has the potential to get heated, but I honestly do not see the berating.
I am going to copy My posts from this thread, from the thread where we were talking to Diff_eqs and the thread about the SW Wisconsin pups into a new thread.
What I would like to ask people to do in the new thread is to pick them apart. Tell me where I might come across as too harsh, and suggest different ways to word things.
I am going to ask, to avoid the conversation getting heated, that we stick to my posts. If other people want advice on how to seem less harsh, they can copy their posts into the thread, and ask for advice, but let's avoid looking at other people's posts until they ask for that advice.
-Nicole
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The Government needs to toughen up it's laws to get rid of BYB and PF
We already have too much government in our lives. If people were more responsible for themselves we wouldn't have near the problems we do. However, people have been conditioned to rely on someone else to do it for them. Now, rather than saying, "We should…" we say, "The government should..."
I would like to see us bring ourselves back to good old-fashioned self-reliance. However, that can only happen if we are willing to support each other and give each other a hand up rather than wait for the Nanny State to do it for us.
Now: regarding PM's and BYB's and how to combat them: hit them head on. Let them know you are onto their game, tell your friends so they can back you up and then sign your name to it. If all you want to do is bitch from the shadows without backing up your gas, the BYB's and PM's will continue. Want to stop them? Have some moxie and stake your name and reputation on it.
Confronting it head on means contacting them yourself via email, telephone, etc and let them know you support your breed and disapprove of puppy mills and BYB's. If you get no response, send them a certified letter and tell them your next step is to contact AKC and complain. Then follow it up.
Look…I'll start it: My name is Belinda Blacketer and I approve this message...but I strongly disapprove of this breeder. That said, I do not disapprove of the person who wants a pup. I just don't want them to get scammed.
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They breed lots of different breeds AND crosses (I hate puggles so much! What a stupid cross).
Hey, I love my Puggle! :mad:
However, your opinion …
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Can we talk more about this?
I realize this conversation has the potential to get heated, but I honestly do not see the berating.
I am going to copy My posts from this thread, from the thread where we were talking to Diff_eqs and the thread about the SW Wisconsin pups into a new thread.
I am going to ask, to avoid the conversation getting heated, that we stick to my posts. If other people want advice on how to seem less harsh, they can copy their posts into the thread, and ask for advice, but let's avoid looking at other people's posts until they ask for that advice.
-Nicole
Nicole, thanks so much for saying that! I realize people here wish us newbies the best, and I do thank everyone A LOT who helped me make a right decision, but you are right, sometimes it does come across as being a little too harsh. They are saying all the right things, but for people who don't know that much it just might seem as "critizing" or "interrogating."
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I have no opinion on puggles in particular, I have never met one in person, but I agree with Maya… There is a reason why we have AKC and all the other breed clubs, to keep the breeds pure. There is also a reason why we have particular breeds, they were bred with specific purposes in mind. I HATE the phrase "designer dogs" with a passion! Basically they are mutts and mixes and crosses. I have nothing against mixes, I had the best little mutt while I was growing up in Russia, some of the best dogs (personality, and trainability, working quailities and healthwise) I know now are mixes. But I HATE how people breed sometimes completely different breeds together (like a chihuahua/poodle cross or similar) and attach a new name to the mix (like "maltipoo, labradoodle, morkie, you name it), and say that it's a new breed. Why not say it's a labrador/poodle cross? To me, those "designer breeders" are on even a worse level as a PM. Not only they breed a bunch of mixes on purpose, and mislead the people who just want a cute pet, the "designer dogs," espeically toys and laps usually cost 2 to 3 times more than purebred of either breed. Where's the logic in that? I am not trying to make anyone upset (sorry ChaseandZahrasmom), but I just don't get it....
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I agree diff_eqs…
Let's think about this...
Labrador and Poodle...
two dogs with PRA and HD....
and breeding them together is supposed to make them healthier?
I think NOT!and a Puggle...
Beagle and Pug...
can we say Cherry Eye, Entropian Eye, and Dry Eye?
Issues galore with those eyes!I'll stick with my Bs
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I agree diff_eqs…
Let's think about this...
Labrador and Poodle...
two dogs with PRA and HD....
and breeding them together is supposed to make them healthier?
I think NOT!and a Puggle...
Beagle and Pug...
can we say Cherry Eye, Entropian Eye, and Dry Eye?
Issues galore with those eyes!I'll stick with my Bs
Plus add in the health concerns of each breed, in addition to the ones that are common to both and you have a real made for disaster
And if you go to the parent clubs of these breeds, you can see what they have to say about so called "designer" dogs…
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There are a lot of well-meaning people on this forum who have a tendency to voice opinions ….firmly and can be a bit brusque and/or argumentative about it, whether in regard to breeders, feeding, training, lifestyle, etc.
It takes some getting used to, and frankly is why I seldom visit the forum any more. It gets old, even when not directed at me. I just want to scream sometimes, "Give him a break! Not everyone shares your OPINION!!!". So, to eliminate that frustration from my life,
I just avoid the forum now for the most part. Too little conversation/discussion, too much opinion stated as fact, too many judgments made on those who disagree.
I can see where newbies would bolt and run. I know I nearly did... a few times. Now I'm not so much bolting and running, but sighing and walking away quietly with an occasional swing through to see if anything new or exciting is happening. -
I can see where newbies would bolt and run. I know I nearly did… a few times. Now I'm not so much bolting and running, but sighing and walking away quietly with an occasional swing through to see if anything new or exciting is happening.
and that would be the reason that I no longer refer my puppy buyers to the site.
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I agree diff_eqs…
Let's think about this...
Labrador and Poodle...
two dogs with PRA and HD....
and breeding them together is supposed to make them healthier?
I think NOT!and a Puggle...
Beagle and Pug...
can we say Cherry Eye, Entropian Eye, and Dry Eye?
Issues galore with those eyes!I'll stick with my Bs
Kathy? this was your post about mixes? And you are no less critical about people going to BYB's then the rest of us. And I still maintain that if we talk one person out of going and supporting a BYB/Puppymill breeder, we have educated someone. And there is more then just one person here that listened to the advise and went to a responsible breeder. As they say, sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow.
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There are a lot of well-meaning people on this forum who have a tendency to voice opinions ….firmly and can be a bit brusque and/or argumentative about it, whether in regard to breeders, feeding, training, lifestyle, etc.
It takes some getting used to, and frankly is why I seldom visit the forum any more. It gets old, even when not directed at me. I just want to scream sometimes, "Give him a break! Not everyone shares your OPINION!!!". So, to eliminate that frustration from my life,
I just avoid the forum now for the most part. Too little conversation/discussion, too much opinion stated as fact, too many judgments made on those who disagree.
I can see where newbies would bolt and run. I know I nearly did... a few times. Now I'm not so much bolting and running, but sighing and walking away quietly with an occasional swing through to see if anything new or exciting is happening.I second this, I haven't been on much in the last several months for the very same reason and this post reminded me again of why I haven't been coming around. I have a Puggle, I can see many people's points as to what is wrong with a designer dog, etc. but you know what, he was my first dog and has been the sweetest little guy ever. EVERY BREED has issues, but it seems sometimes that you can't just say something nice on this forum many have to come back with an attack. Education is fine, I whole heartdly agree but my Puggle is a member of my family at this point and it is hard to see someone say that a breed that you have or your furchild is "Stupid".
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To me, those "designer breeders" are on even a worse level as a PM. Not only they breed a bunch of mixes on purpose, and mislead the people who just want a cute pet, the "designer dogs," espeically toys and laps usually cost 2 to 3 times more than purebred of either breed. Where's the logic in that? I am not trying to make anyone upset (sorry ChaseandZahrasmom), but I just don't get it….
What does PM mean?
No offense taken.
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I believe PM is "puppy mill".
Thanks! I was having a brain freeze on that … seems so simple now, LOL!
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rescued my pup, wouldn't have it any other way
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I second this, I haven't been on much in the last several months for the very same reason and this post reminded me again of why I haven't been coming around. I have a Puggle, I can see many people's points as to what is wrong with a designer dog, etc. but you know what, he was my first dog and has been the sweetest little guy ever. EVERY BREED has issues, but it seems sometimes that you can't just say something nice on this forum many have to come back with an attack. Education is fine, I whole heartdly agree but my Puggle is a member of my family at this point and it is hard to see someone say that a breed that you have or your furchild is "Stupid".
We also have to understand that we don't even go these lengths within our own species (at least the majority of parents). Lots of people have children even though they are aware of "genetic defects", yet they still find a way to love them. You have to find a balance between perfection and enjoyment. Obviously Fanconi is a big concern, I will not downplay that, but other things that are not life threatening can be managed. We do it with ourselves (no one here is perfectly healthy) and find a way to live our lives.
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We also have to understand that we don't even go these lengths within our own species (at least the majority of parents). Lots of people have children even though they are aware of "genetic defects", yet they still find a way to love them. You have to find a balance between perfection and enjoyment. Obviously Fanconi is a big concern, I will not downplay that, but other things that are not life threatening can be managed. We do it with ourselves (no one here is perfectly healthy) and find a way to live our lives.
I thought about the same thing the other day. For example, my uncle has a rare form of muscular dystrophy that kind of reminds me of fanconi in the way it is passed. After we learned more about it, most of us were tested. To use the same kind of terms, there are those of us that are clear of it, some that are carriers, and of course, my uncle is affected. I'm a carrier, as are a lot of my aunts and cousins (we have a very big family). As horrible as the disease is, the smart thing to do would be to test our SOs to see if they are clear/carrier/affected before we have children, but that probably won't happen and it will be left up to chance. There are many other genetic diseases and defects that can probably be avoided if we were as discerning in our choice of mates as we are in our pets' mates/lineage. As Kananga said, I'm not downplaying the seriousness of fanconi, and I'm certainly happy that my best friend is clear and healthy, and when I decide to get another dog, I will make sure he/she has been tested and that the parents have had all the health tests that are available. It's just that sometimes things like this strike me as odd. Just one of those random things that popped in my mind during a long drive.
Anyway, I also dislike the idea of "designer dogs". But hey, the shelters are full of them, some even more designer than others, they don't cost nearly as much, and are already spayed or neutered. There's a German Labterrier, Yorkichipoo, Labrachow, and all kinds of combinations. You could make up your own new name for a breed.
As for the puggle, I've only met one. A good friend just adopted a puggle puppy, and he is the sweetest little boy. AND he can keep up with Cody in the stamina department, at least for a little while.
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Almost every Ashkenazi couple I know have themselves tested for Tay Sachs before deciding to have kids.
It's too horrible to live through to take the chance.
I can't have kids, but if we were to choose IVF later on, my husband and I would definitely have ourselves screened first.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_disease#Screening_success_with_Ashkenazi_Jews
-Nicole
