@lkjellander - Terry is listed at www.basenji.org. Also there is Brenda Cassell, Signet Basenjis in Ft. Worth.
Looking for red and white male
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While I admire your position, I do have a few comments I would like to make so I hope you do not mind me copying your quote and putting my responses in a different color to make it easier for others to follow.
Since a dog does not have glucose in the urine until usually 5-7 years old, I cannot see euthanizing a young dog just because it DNA tests probably Fanconi affected. There are Bs that are killed by cars or by another illness or by chewing/swallowing an object like a towel before that age. All my rescues are DNA Fanconi tested. I also almost always have them thyroid tested and CERF'd for eye problems. These are just the expenses associated in owning/rescuing Bs.
While I will not debate the age of when this might happen to a basenji, I would like to ask when has an animal has suffered enough and their quality of life has been degraded enough, before it becomes cruel to keep them alive either by machine, pill, or other means before euthanizing them becomes the humane thing to do?
I do agree that Basenjis are killed by cars, chewing/swallowing objects, eating poisons or other things disagreeable to their systems that can cut their life short at an early age. I think the big difference here is that a lot of what has mentioned in this paragraph is preventable. On the other hand illness is not something a dog can get into, be hit by, or consume. It is a natural process that is beyond the control of the owner. This is a very significant difference.
I am taking care of my 3rd Fanconi affected who will be 11 in December and I do not have a problem in taking care of them. One of the six Amish rescues who was originally supposed to go to BRAT but did not because he had major socialization problems stayed at my own rescue. I had him DNA tested and he turned out to be affected. He will be two in November and will probably permanently live with me.
Again while I admire your position, you are one out of how many thousands/millions of people that would take on this responsibility.
I train all my dogs, especially rescues, to take pills so that helps tremendously. I am able to come home on my lunch hour to let the dogs out. I have been able to travel via car with the Fanconi dogs.
Missy takes 10 bicarbs a day plus the other pills and supplements added to her food. She is able to see the regular vet, no specialists needed. She is able to eat regular food both dry and canned. She is not in renal failure and she is not having accidents in the house.
I think its great that you have been able to train your dogs to do all these things and that you have made progress with them. How much actual time have you had to spend training them to get them where they are today. Have you ever failed in your attempt to train a dog to do what wanted? Is there method that you are using that you think maybe others have missed? What about those who are not as successful as you? Should a dog be made to suffer because their owner may not be as capable a trainer as you?
I have a rescue boy who has an esophagus problem and is mostly blind in one eye. He eats prescription intestinal dog food both dry and canned. He take Prilosec every day and Reglan every other day and he is also on enzymes and probiotics. He eats with his food bowl level as I place it on the living room coffee table. He sees an internist for ultrasounds and other tests as necessary. I am thankful he has a mild case for if not he would have to eat upright in a special chair. He tested probably Fanconi clear.
Is this a Mega esophagus problem or something else. Many years ago I had a dog with a mega espohagus problem. After seeking out the advice of several different vets while the dogs health deteriorated, it was decided that is was in the best interest of the dog to euthanize him. I do not think I made the wrong decision in regard to doing what was humane for that dog.
I just think there are other diseases that a dog could have that are worse than Fanconi. My elderly BRAT foster, who will be 16 in December, has more problems than a Fanconi dog. She has limited sight and hearing and has arthritis. If I do not take her out shortly after she wakes up and starts walking, she will urinate wherever she is at. She eats well, walks around fast, almost trots and had a complete workup a few months ago and the ultransound was normal for a dog her age. She is not in renal failure. She takes medications and supplements added to her food. She requires eye drops because of a previous eye condition.
Are you a person who is home all day long so you have time to deal with these unique problems?
If there are people willing to take a Fanconi dog or a young probably affected one, why euthanize them? I have thought about what I will do when Missy dies. I took Missy in when she was not doing well at the other co-owners place. Missy came soon after my other Fanconi dog Zippy passed away, not from Fanconi but from a tumor/growth in the nasal/facial region. Her Fanconi test results were completely normal the day I had to euthanize her because of breathing problems. I have the pill/feeding routine down so it would be easy to take in another Fanconi affected as long as the dog would get along with my other Bs.
Once again I really admire your effort and devotion to these dogs. After reading through all of this more than once, it begs the question, who is that will be able to take care of these animals in the same way you do if something happens to you? If you become incapacitated, can a person without your experience step right in and continue to provide the same level of care as you have provided for these animals? How many other people do you think that are out there that have the same level of commitment that you have shared with us here? If there are not that many, then you can certainly see the problem!
Jason
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dcmclcm4 you do a great job and my heart goes to you I wish more people could and would see things as you do.
Jason who is going to take care of you if something happens and if you get sick just tell people do not care for me just let me die in peace since you cannot put me down like a dog.
None of us can see into the future but caring and loving and never, never giving
up. This is some one special.Rita Jean
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Rita Jean are we now equating dogs with people? While I do not believe in cruelty and certainly love animals I do make that separation. If something happens to me, I have other members of my family that will take care of me or see to it I will be taken care of.
Not to make light of anything but people do commit suicide every day, so there are some that make that choice. We have a doctor in the US that has assisted people who are chronic pain or have a life ending disease assist others in taking their lives. It does not make it right or legal but people make the decision to do it.
I have yet to see a dog that is intent on committing suicide or that has actively sought assistance to do so.
Dogs are just not in the same situation. Take the humans out of the picture and take a look at what would normally happen in the wild in a pack. It may not be pretty and in many eyes it may not be fair, but it is reality. The other animals do not rally around to to take care of a sick or injured animal, and it most cases they will drive it off or kill it.
It is only humans who have tried to change the natural course of mother nature. Humans are the ones that have affected the balance in the eco system and food chain. Many times, Humans create more problems in nature than good. Do you really believe in the Basenji's were left to their own devices in the wild, that Fanconi dogs would survive? What would happen to the breed and Fanconi if it had just been left alone?
As a human I do have some choices. I can make the decision to either accept or refuse treatment. Dogs, do not have that same option. As a human, I can leave a living will with orders not to resuscitate me under certain conditions. Again Dogs do not have that option. With my consent, I can choose to donate a kidney to another human being to possibly extend or save their life. Dogs do not have that option.
I can understand people that would like to humanize dogs, but again the harsh reality is that Dogs are not human. It does not mean that we should not have empathy for them or treat them with proper care. As humans we do need to exercise good judgment on what constitutes proper care and what is best for the animal involved in the long run.
Jason
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Does fanconi exist in the wild b's? Is there any research on that? I am curious now, since it was mentioned in the last post..
It is proven, in other breeds that we, the people, through breeding for certain traits, have developed other not positive traits in some breeds, again not in b's but other breeds in general..makes you wonder.. -
Re test strips. I just saw some in Costco yesterday.
So Costco in Wa does have them. -
Jason as the world goes on each day as they say to each there own and thank God that each of us are not the same and see things in a different light.
Rita Jean
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Good on you dcmclcm4, you are an angel on earth to take care of those dogs so well.
In a world were so many bad things happen its great to read about people like you. -
Does fanconi exist in the wild b's? Is there any research on that? I am curious now, since it was mentioned in the last post..
It is proven, in other breeds that we, the people, through breeding for certain traits, have developed other not positive traits in some breeds, again not in b's but other breeds in general..makes you wonder..Obviously since Fanconi can be traced back to the org imports that were brought from Africa and we know it is genetic, it would have had to exist in the wild…. Remember that in the wild, it is natual selection, only the strong survive... so that the ones that would have, might have come down with Fanconi died off and were never bred (in a pack selection, not human breeding selection) Fanconi did not happen due to breeding traits... again it is genetic.
And IMO.... while many can give and do give pills to animals with success... there are that many more that would never be able to... I know this for a fact, as my better half couldn't give a pill to an animal if his life depended on it... period.... and then to have to force 16 to 30 some pills down a dog a day.... well again.. depends on the person
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It is difficult to know exactly if Fanconi was a problem in the Native population for several reasons. One is that it took the breed fancy a while to realize what Fanconi was. Early in the breed history Fanconi was often misdiagnosed. So by the time it was recognized as an issue, people weren't going to Africa to get new imports so there was no real discussion with the Natives about the issue. Another thing that complicates it is that Fanconi is a late onset disease so the dogs may not have lived long enough to be symptomatic.
It is most probable that Fanconi existed in the Native population of basenjis in Africa and was brought over in the original imports.
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@Rita:
Jason as the world goes on each day as they say to each there own and thank God that each of us are not the same and see things in a different light.
Rita Jean
Rita, I could not agree with you more. Preserving life at all costs is certainly a double edged sword.
Jason
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(OT)…Jason, thank you for your post. Even when you post a dissenting opinion you're a gentleman about it and take the replies in stride.
The give and take of an educated adult discussion is what makes this forum great. Thank you for your input.
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This place is great for getting all views expressed and listened to.
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Thanks for the info on whether fanconi exited/exits in the native packs..I really didn't know (haven't done my homework), but now I have a better idea..
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Obviously since Fanconi can be traced back to the org imports that were brought from Africa and we know it is genetic, it would have had to exist in the wild…. Remember that in the wild, it is natual selection, only the strong survive... so that the ones that would have, might have come down with Fanconi died off and were never bred (in a pack selection, not human breeding selection) Fanconi did not happen due to breeding traits... again it is genetic.
And IMO.... while many can give and do give pills to animals with success... there are that many more that would never be able to... I know this for a fact, as my better half couldn't give a pill to an animal if his life depended on it... period.... and then to have to force 16 to 30 some pills down a dog a day.... well again.. depends on the person
After giving this some thought and discussion with Miranda, along with her background in molecular biology, we both feel that the only way eradicate Fanconi from the breed is by controlled breeding period. Since controlled breeding does not exist in the wild, it is our view that Fanconi will never be eradicated from the breed. In the domestic population, not everyone that breeds practices controlled breeding, so the breed will never be free from Fanconi. From we understand the only way to take any gene out of the breeding pool is to remove from that pool, any animal carrying that gene.
We would appreciate anyone who can point out any other possibilities in regard to the solution of the Fanconi problem.
Jason and Miranda
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Understanding however that breeding carriers to clear is the option that allows to include the widest genetic diversity. Breeding only clear to clear reduces the diversity in the population - shade of what happend to the breed during some of the other health concerns like HA, PRA and Malabsorbtion. Hopefully we learned that throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the most effective way of keeping valuable traits while eliminating health concerns.
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Understanding however that breeding carriers to clear is the option that allows to include the widest genetic diversity. Breeding only clear to clear reduces the diversity in the population - shade of what happend to the breed during some of the other health concerns like HA, PRA and Malabsorbtion. Hopefully we learned that throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the most effective way of keeping valuable traits while eliminating health concerns.
+1…I could not agree with you more!
