@eeeefarm said in Is my dog a Basenji mix?:
Genetics is such an interesting subject!
And the most understandable book on the subject is Mary Lou Kenworthy's ! Recommended to everyone if it is still available.
My Wife's hand/ dog bite
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And in that case she should have never been bred, that is not being very responsible to bred a dog clearly with a bad temperament?….
Was she bred before or after the biting incident?
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I do disagree with Barkless on his opinion on Basenjis in general, however…. about adults and puppies. A good breeder knows the temperament of every pup in the litter... and should be able to tell any prospective person what that is... since your boys breeder already knew that he was of poor temperament and would bite, obviously that was a known factor.
I meant to ask also – did I miss something? How do we know that the breeder already knew that Barkless' pup had a bad temperment?
And while I agree that a breeder is familiar with every puppy, there is no way, IMO, that the breeder can foresee everything that will come to pass w/a particular dog's temperment.
My niece once had a rottweiler that came from good stock and for the first couple of years was awesome. Then he decided not to like strangers. Period.
No idea what happened as he'd only had positive experiences. The only strangers he liked were disabled adults and children. It was odd.You would have never guessed in Jazzy's first 1.5 yrs of life that she would snap at kids, but she does now. They just have to walk in the front door, and she bristles and growls; we have to watch her very closely -- not all kids, she has a few that she accepts like family, but there are others who have never done a thing to her, and any kid she doesn't know is instant enemy. And there have been one or two adults who have entered our home to growls. Why? Who knows? She's had a pretty darned cushy, friendly life with lots of socialization w/people of all shapes, sizes, colors....
No way at all the breeder could have gotten that from the mellow, tolerant pup he sold us. {She's STILL a very mellow, tolerant dog but some people for whatever reason just set her off}
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i have a strong opinion that breeds that are know as "angry" or "vicious" aren't BRED to be mean, they are raised that way. If you starve, beat, or neglect a dog, of course they are going to be angry.
Rockys parents were sweet dogs, but he's attacked my boyfriend, and even me. He doesnt like to be pet either.. he growls when people touch him.. does that automatically mean that he is from bad parents? no, he has been through things in his previous home that we didnt know about when he was purchased.. you know what i mean?
Because a dog feels threatened and cornered by a stranger and bites is completely natural… at least in my opinion..
i mean, what would you do if you got cornered by someone you didnt know?
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Barkless was the one that said that the breeder knew that the male was a biter… and honestly, even at 8 wks a breeder knows if there is a pup with a "bad" temperament.... I certainly did... which is why I never repeated the breeding or ever bred any of the offspring.
As far as Jazzy.. there would have been warning signs to her temperament change, IMO... others, like Andrea might have a better explanation then I do... and in every case there are just people/children that dogs don't like, period.. my brother-in-law is one... dogs just do not take to him at all.. even though he likes and has dogs...
The problem as described by Barkless is far different the what you have with Jazzy... IMO... it is a biter "out of no where"... no real trigger that humans can see (excluding being hurt/injured)... just a snap in temperament and the bite comes... and while I don't know that she was bred before the problems were known, I guess I was assuming that most dogs are shown early in life and if she bit a judge that would have been when she was young...
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Barkless was the one that said that the breeder knew that the male was a biter… and honestly, even at 8 wks a breeder knows if there is a pup with a "bad" temperament.... I certainly did... which is why I never repeated the breeding or ever bred any of the offspring.
As far as Jazzy.. there would have been warning signs to her temperament change, IMO... others, like Andrea might have a better explanation then I do... and in every case there are just people/children that dogs don't like, period.. my brother-in-law is one... dogs just do not take to him at all.. even though he likes and has dogs...
The problem as described by Barkless is far different the what you have with Jazzy... IMO... it is a biter "out of no where"... no real trigger that humans can see (excluding being hurt/injured)... just a snap in temperament and the bite comes... and while I don't know that she was bred before the problems were known, I guess I was assuming that most dogs are shown early in life and if she bit a judge that would have been when she was young...
Okay – somehow/somewhere I missed that Barkless had said the breeder knew the pup was a biter.
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Well….I remember Barkless saying he bit the breeder...but that doesn't necessarily mean it happened when he was still a baby puppy. Ivy bit her breeder only a couple years ago, at the age of 5. There was NO indication at the time Ivy came to live with us at eight weeks there was a problem. But her behavior issues showed up around 18 mos, or so. BUT...she is different than Barkless' boy because does have quite a few warning signs prior to biting; and she has really good bite inhibition...so when she feels compelled to bite, she will often just snap at the person (a warning) or when she does bite, she has always punctured with just one tooth, just one time. Never full mouth bites with multiple contacts. That is the sign of a dog with no bite inhibition at all. And it is much, much more dangerous than dogs like Ivy, or Jazzy.
I don't necessarily know if breeders can tell how good a puppy's bite inhibition will be prior to them going to their new homes...and I don't know if it is totally an inherited trait. I think everybody, breeders, and buyers can improve their puppy's bite inhibition with some training, and there are things that can make it worse to some extent.
I think some basenjis tend towards being crabby...and if you get a crabby one with no bite inhibition, you have trouble. So I think it is wise for everyone to assume that their adorable baby basenji puppy *might be capable of biting at some point, and try to work with them as babies to minimize that possibility.
I know of a great breeder, with super sweet dogs that had to put down a dog she bred last year because after five years he had become really aggressive towards his people....and when they brought him to her, he attacked people at her house. Nothing bad every happened to this dog, he was adorably sweet when he left her house, and the parents were perfectly mannered. Maybe something went wrong in his brain (his thyroid was fine), maybe there was something else wrong...we will never know...but it does happen.
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How do we know that the breeder already knew that Barkless' pup had a bad temperament?
No I never said the breeder knew he was a biter-
No way!
We got him when he was really young, he was a little puppy, it was not until he was 6-8 months or older when he started biting, biting the breeder and it was only when trying to trim his nails, which we neglected to do everyday when we first got him as the breeder told us to do. That's when it started.
I would have to partly blame our inexperience as new basenji owners. We did a not of training & puppy classes with the breeder. Also The breeders are wonderful people and dedicated & loving basenji breeders. I would not say anything negitive EVER about them. Quite the opposite. They would do anything to help anyone.
You can only blame a dog so far. We have to accept blame as well. Also we never mistreated the dog in any way, more of the problem was the opposite. Not enough discipline when he was a puppy (not physical either-no hitting ever)!
As far as the mom goes, the judge incident happened before she bred (never bit him but tried to) the dog and the biting the kid incident happened a while after she had the puppies and the dog was cornered by the kid.
Also I might add, the puppies from the same litter did not have the same problem. She would have never breed the dog if it was a known bad temperament. She was a very responsible breeder.
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Also I would like to state the times when he bites are -
Getting his foot stepped on - unless you appoligize in a baby voice to him imeadiatly as it happens- if not he will bite your leg. it hurts him because he screams in pain when it happens so we don't hold it against him that much.
Trimming his nails has always been the ugly thing that makes him go crazy.
Trying to take away something he knows he is not allowed to eat, like something he finds on his walk or food he steals- you can't get near him to take it away- but with his bones, toys & food you can do what ever you like, take them away bring them back & he's fine. He knows when he has something that is forbidden!
Waking him suddenly from a sound nap by grabbing or touching him (my daughter got bit in the stomach by going and grabbing his ears while he was sleeping!)
If you tell him your there and let him wake on his own he's fine. Surprises while sleeping or not good!Obviosly when he is injured. Only I can approach him.
He's fine with just about everything else, like baths, teeth & ear cleaning, shots, being exained by the vet.
He also loves to to tricks and knows his obiedience training- it's more of him choosing to do it!
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Barklessdog:
Glad to hear all that and thanks for clearing all that up…. many of your posts get confusing as to the temperament of your boy and all the things that he does or doesn't do, at least to me... -
Me too, both of us are mixed bags!
I have to make it clear that I have never bitten anyone!
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Me too, both of us are mixed bags!
I have to make it clear that I have never bitten anyone!
That is good to hear… hmmm... not sure that is true for me..;)
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Barkless-I hope your wife is doing better
It seems your views or maybe it's emotions have changed from your first post to your last post which is a good thing. I'm glad you mentioned that dogs (basenjis or otherwise) don't bite out of the blue (typically that is although there are extenuating cirumstances). I think a lot of people need to be educated on WHY a dog bites.You may not bite in these situations but you may give a yell, sream, or even a cuss word :eek: A dog doesn't have these forms of expression they have their sounds (and Basenjis don't even have many sounds :eek:) & their teeth. What other options do they have???
Getting his foot stepped on - I would certainly yell!
Trimming his nails has always been the ugly thing that makes him go crazy.-Ever had a hang nail trimmed??!! OUCH! Man that hurts
Trying to take away something he knows he is not allowed to eat, like something he finds on his walk or food he steals- If you know me, you would never try to take away something yummy from me
Waking him suddenly from a sound nap by grabbing or touching him (my daughter got bit in the stomach by going and grabbing his ears while he was sleeping!) My husband swears I turn into Mr. Hyde if someone wakes me up from sleeping…it's not pretty :mad:
Obviosly when he is injured. If I were hurt you bet your @ss I'd giving out a good yell & @$%! words!!*
It just seems to me that many (I don't mean anyone here) are quick to judge dogs simply because they're animals & can't express themselves like humans do. And yet it's very acceptable for humans to react to similar situations.
When people judge my dog, Topaz (alot like Ivy & Jazzy), I try to put things in their perspective. I explain…well you're about 5ft taller then her & if someone 10ft came over to you & decided to BOP you on the head wouldn't YOU be upset?? What about if a 6ft grizzly looking guy came up right up to your face about 1/2 inch form your nose would YOU be comfortable?? So why should she be comfortable with it??
That's just my 2 cents
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I have had this dog for 7 years and as with most basenji's you go to extreme love to extreme anger or like when he bit my daughter & wife, you have to wonder why are you doing this?
But when you come home that bad side is only a small part of his personality, which is very gentle & sweet. Still the vicious side exists and we have chosen to work with it.
Sweet dog 99%
Savage Dog 1%
They 1% dog draws blood!
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I agree that I can't blame him totally for lashing out for the above reasons, but still does not make it acceptable behavior. He did bite my wife's sisters leg when she stepped on his toes and did not get her foot off his foot right away-poor guy screamed really loud then bit her (-lesson learned-he stays in his crate when people are over). He tends to walk by your side, right next to you, so it happens frequently, but not if you appoligize the instant it happens.
However we can minimize most of what pushes his red zone buttons, but like stepping on his toes, him getting hurt or getting his nails trimmed (at the vet) just can't be foreseen or avoided.
I might also add that trimming his nails did not allows go so bad, but just increased over the 7 years (and we never trimmed them too short-bleeding) We used to be able to do it our selfs once in a while, then we went to groomer and he was OK, but slowly, he decided he was not going to have none of it from anyone for the most part - although he did let a Vet assistant trim them, the next visit he goes psycho?
You just don't know how he's going to react from one time to next, or with certain people.
Also these are smart dogs, what works one time (muzzle etc> ) he learns to avoid the next or he's just sees it and wont let you get near him. Also he learned if his sticks his head between his front legs you can't get a muzzle on and your too afraid, and vulnerable to get bit, to reach under him near his mouth.
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Our psycho-lab used to sometimes get what we called her "possessed devil dog" look in her eyes before she attacked our basset hound. I don't know if anyone else has ever seen that in a dog but it is creepy!
Pat
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This look?
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Have you tried any positive reinforcement from the muzzle or going to the vet?? When I do their nails (I file by the way no cuts or bleeding this way) they get a raw hide to chew on while dad holds them down. They're so busy eating they don't even notice the loud noise of the dremel.
Going to the vet was a scary experience (kinda like a kid going to the pediatrician for the first time yells & screams) growls & teeth. I knew it was just fear driven so now we go with yummy cooked hot dogs!
He sits on a scale..hot dog. He gets his muzzle on (with some room to chew) hot dog! hot dog! hot dog! We take the muzzle off hot dog! As we walk out of the vet hot dog!Get it?? Kinda like a child gets a lollipop after their shots…my kids get hot dogs
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This look?
Yep…that would be the possessed devil-dog look that says: I'm going to eat your face! :eek: :eek:
Pat
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Mine gets that look especially when he's being really goofy & is all excited!!
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My girls gets that look whenever she sees my boy. Except she's serious! They both get the crazy-face when they're having fun, too.
