I have stood out in the rain with Cara for over an hour, her screaming, crying, holding up one foot after another... over and over. And no, she ever, ever pottied. Which is why I found the concrete back porch acceptable.
Need good advice on serious topic:
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Personally, I have never seen a situation where positive reinforcement methods have put a human at risk. As with any other training method…if done incorrectly, one could fail to correct the problem they are trying to change...but there is no point in arguing the details of our methodologies.
I think one reason that we see more cases of people dealing with problem dogs, is that when I was kid, and probaby you too. If your dog bit a kid you did either one of three things: you told the kid "don't bother the dog anymore", or you took the vet or the shelter where it was euthanized, or you took it behind the barn and shot it. People didn't want to understand why their dog bit, and they didn't really care, and they didn't think they could change the dog. Now people view the dog as a family member that you don't give up on, and many set up unrealistic expectations for the dog. People with problem dogs have to become instant experts, and they have people tell them they don't have a good relationship with their dog, and that they screwed up with the dog as a puppy because they were too lenient,or too harsh. When all they really want is a technique to improve their dog's behavior.
I am rambling....
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Personally, I have never seen a situation where positive reinforcement methods have put a human at risk. As with any other training method…if done incorrectly, one could fail to correct the problem they are trying to change...but there is no point in arguing the details of our methodologies.
I have seen problems with creating pushy, demanding, "entitled" animals when it is applied incorrectly. Usually when folks don't switch to intermittent rewarding, or reinforce something other than what they intended to reinforce.
I think one reason that we see more cases of people dealing with problem dogs, is that when I was kid, and probaby you too. If your dog bit a kid you did either one of three things: you told the kid "don't bother the dog anymore", or you took the vet or the shelter where it was euthanized, or you took it behind the barn and shot it.
Yes, no question about it. The usual method employed by people I knew was to discipline the kid. People usually understood the dog wasn't the party at fault.
I teased our Sheltie until he lost his patience. "Daddy, the dog bit me!" "What did you do to the dog?" No sympathy for me! And we had that dog until he was 14 years old…....wonderful dog. I grew up and learned to respect his space.People didn't want to understand why their dog bit, and they didn't really care, and they didn't think they could change the dog. Now people view the dog as a family member that you don't give up on, and many set up unrealistic expectations for the dog. People with problem dogs have to become instant experts, and they have people tell them they don't have a good relationship with their dog, and that they screwed up with the dog as a puppy because they were too lenient,or too harsh. When all they really want is a technique to improve their dog's behavior.
I think back then a lot of people did understand why their dog bit, if it bit. And usually took steps to improve matters. But the problem was less prevalent and I think that the way dogs were incorporated into a household had something to do with it. Dogs allowed on furniture were rare. Most dogs I knew had restrictions on where they could be in the house (ours was not allowed in carpeted areas, and he respected that whether we were home or not). And most importantly, dogs were not left alone for long periods of time. Mom was usually around, to deal with either dogs or kids or both. It makes a difference.
I am rambling….
Yeah, me too. As I've said before, I've been doing this a long time. When I started, the usual methods employed with dogs were positive reinforcement in the form of praise, positive punishment in the form of spanking, not so much use of negative punishment, which is more in style today, not a lot of negative reinforcement, either, although it was and is the primary method of training horses. (natural, because of the differences in what you are teaching, and the "nature of the beast") I am all for learning whatever "new" methods come down the pipe. (really, nothing is new, just "rebranded" and there is more jargon out there than there used to be) Although I have always used marker words, I find clickers great because they are more precise in use and lack the inflection of a verbal marker, which introduces inconsistency to the equation. I've employed them with horses also…...if anything, horses are quicker than dogs to offer behaviours, and they learn fast! There are many roads that lead to Rome, and the choice between them may rest with the individuals involved. One size seldom fits all, and I will not deprive myself of useful tools because they are currently out of favour. The pendulum swings, and if you live long enough you will see it swing back again......often several times. Now I really am rambling.
Merry Christmas and successful training to all.
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Not sure how others will interpret this/think it is okay, etc., but this method works for Kipawa and I regarding resource guarding, which thankfully hasn't happened yet. When Kipawa was very young and had any toy with him, even when it was in his mouth, I would take his head in my hands and kiss him on the cheek. Then I would hold onto the toy and kiss him on his cheek. Had I read about this anywhere? No. But I do have to say that Kipawa's nature is very kind. There is no resource guarding of any kind with food, even the most coveted, which is fresh organic bison steak.
I'd be interested to hear comments, or if anyone else had tried something similar to this.
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Not sure how others will interpret this/think it is okay, etc., but this method works for Kipawa and I regarding resource guarding, which thankfully hasn't happened yet. When Kipawa was very young and had any toy with him, even when it was in his mouth, I would take his head in my hands and kiss him on the cheek. Then I would hold onto the toy and kiss him on his cheek. Had I read about this anywhere? No. But I do have to say that Kipawa's nature is very kind. There is no resource guarding of any kind with food, even the most coveted, which is fresh organic bison steak.
I'd be interested to hear comments, or if anyone else had tried something similar to this.
Oh I would NOT NOT NOT suggest someone with a resource guarder to do this. That being said, Jet the trying will often growl at the other dogs in the house and I will pick him up and rub my face all over him. But I don't tell people that I do this, nor do i view it as training. I'm just 100% sure he won't bite me (or other humans). He's just grumpy (I mean the other dogs are standing there breathing his air!) I can actually do this with any of my dogs, but i truly believe that is the nature of my dogs and has very little to do with me. (Although I do think i'm an above average dog-owner and have invested hours/days/months/years worth of training in all of my basenjis.)
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Oh, I wouldn't suggest anyone put their face close to a resource guarder either…..one of the reasons it is a mistake to pick them up if "caught in the act". But in normal circumstances I love sticking my face in my dog's face and kissing him.....I do it all the time. I also startle him, stare at him, stalk him, grab him......it's all a game, and I think protects against the accidental trigger of hostility if he is used to it. With my horses I do all the stuff you aren't supposed to do as well. Running up to them waving my arms, then rewarding them with a carrot for not spooking. No matter how often kids are told not to do something, you can bet they will forget when they are excited, so the more exposure you can give an animal to "expect the unexpected" the better, IMHO. Only of course work up to the really scary stuff slowly!!!
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Removed for fear of lack of privacy
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Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
I tried to stay out of this, but nah.
First, your post drips condescending drivel. You words above indicate that people who don't know what they are doing, not confident, etc, should go the routes other suggest. But those with your awesome training ability should do yours. Let me state this CLEARLY for people reading this and accepting your posts.Not the way I read it, but never mind. I related my own experiences, didn't comment on my ability or lack thereof, and also commented on what is clearly anecdotal evidence…...that people of my generation tended to use similar methods with reasonable success (pretty much every kid I knew growing up had a dog at home. No serious bites reported, no dogs put down, and they all lived inside......I don't know anyone that had an outside dog in the city. Country people, maybe so, but I didn't know them).
I have worked with AGGRESSIVE large breed dogs. You bet your bottom dollar I am both experiences and confident. Your methods are not necessary, they increase the chance for aggressive response when it is utterly unnecessary, and choosing to train in a positive rather than macho way has NOTHING to do with confidence or experience but rather your own like for that style.
My neighbour has rehabilitated several Rottweilers…...think that is your breed.....and she is far more heavy handed than anyone else I know. I don't like her methods at all, but she has the best behaved dogs I have seen of that breed, so what does that prove? Nothing at all, except that making blanket statements based on anecdotal evidence proves exactly nothing.
Being 55 years old and raised in the "old style" environment, I suggest you didn't have quite broad enough exposure. Many dogs were in fact aggressive, dominant, nasty, unhinged whatever. But for MOST people back then, dogs lived outside, not in your face 24-7. They ate outside, they rarely got kids in close quarters, they had the ability to leave situations they didn't like or felt uncomfortable with. The dogs weren't better, the people weren't that much more insistent– hell a lot LESS since, oh yeah, MOST DOGS LIVED OUTSIDE--on great behavior. And dogs who did cross the line often got killed. But don't take my word for it, talk to people in their 50s and older and ask if they didn't ALL know of dogs that bit someone they knew or even family.
I've got ten years on you, and as I said, all the dogs I knew growing up lived inside, including the ones that I walked and trained for people starting when I was all of 12 years old. No biters, no nasty dogs, and I had quite a range. Shepherd crosses, a Golden, a Boxer, several cross breds, a Cavalier King Charles, oh, yeah, and a Greyhound. At the time many people let their dogs run during the day, so we came across lots of other dogs in our travels. I usually had four or five with me, typically 2 or 3 off leash. Can't say I ever had any serious fights to deal with. But dogs were typically better socialized then. Most were used to kids and other dogs, since they saw them all the time. You are right on one count. A truly nasty dog would not have been tolerated, and I am sure would have been put down. Sorry, in my sheltered existence I never heard of any…..and I knew most of the dogs living within a three mile or so radius.
Obviously we all agree on exposing dogs to all the type of experiences possible, but just like Andrea's dog, there are dogs you cannot make into docile stuffed toys. There are dogs that are more reactive no matter how much you expose, handle and work with. And if you think for one second that the rest of us have had dogs with issues because we are slackers who let things go, well, okay I am not really surprised you suggested that. YES, it is true for a lot of people whether we are talking training horses, dogs, children or anything. But problems arise even with those of us who don't let things go. And I know this is upsetting to you and your methods, but study upon study upon study prove that you can train nearly every single type of animal with nearly every type of behavioral problem using positive training. Period.
What exactly do you think "my methods" are? Using the operant jargon (which I first learned in the late sixties from my friend who was taking psychology and training her dad's hunting dog tricks to test methods), I use positive reinforcement, positive punishment, negative reinforcement (more so with horses than dogs) and negative punishment, as do all of you, as far as I can determine from reading posts. There is no judgemental weight in the descriptive terms, and "punishment" can be as light as a look or a tone of voice. With sensitive dogs, such as Border Collies and Shelties, that is enough…...more than enough......to be punishment. Even if you don't do that much, body language can act as positive punishment, and most of us are not great at disguising what we feel from our dogs. So, what we are really discussing here is degree, and what is appropriate in a situation. Do you draw the line at a look or a word, or do you allow a water pistol or a tone or a spritz of an aversive scent? Is a swat over the line? How about a full on beating? All are, or can be, "positive punishment". How the animal reacts will tell you. If the behavior diminishes you applied punishment. If it increases, it was reinforcement.
And those few who cannot (such as serious neurological issues, dangerous unstable temperaments and brain tumors, etc) couldn't be trained your way, sure as heck not with a shock collar, without utterly escalating the problem. Again, your methods are not necessary.
I am wondering if you are familiar with Daniel F. Tortora's study, "Safety training: The elimination of avoidance-motivated aggression in dogs". It is quite interesting. The program, which involved use of the e collar to modify behaviour, resulted in complete and permanent elimination of aggression in all of the 36 dogs tested. 100% success. Can't get a whole lot better than that. As far as the reasons for the dogs being aggressive in the first place, according to Tortora, these dogs usually suffer from a lack of training and predictability in their lives and therefore feel like they lack control over their environment. I've always felt that inconsistency is the main reason people run into problems, whatever their training method, and I think this bears that out.
And finally, lest you imagine that I am some weak-minded weak spine softie, I hung a dog up who charged at another person (his owner) until his eyes bulged to prevent him mauling me and the owner. We then took the 80 pound dog to the vet and put him down. He should have been put down long before, with 8 bites to family members and a neighbor– vet would not longer see him unless they had him muzzled before he went in. What caused the issues? I don't know. But not all dogs can be saved. And I have no issue doing what I have to do in an emergency. But I am happy to say that 99 percent of the time when dealing even with aggressive dogs, even when dealing (or maybe especially) with feral dogs, positive training, rewarding good behavior with treats and praise, avoiding ever making it a confrontation, works best. And that other 1 percent often is due to history and need for fast physical intervention. It is not a preferred method.
Oh, Debra, I so don't think you are a weak-minded weak spine softie! Not in any way, shape or form. I am sure I would rather take on one or all of your Rotties than you, in a physical confrontation.
I really don't think we have a lot to argue about. Discuss, perhaps. I have never said there is anything wrong with "positive" methods (however you want to define it), have only given another perspective on the subject, which as I have said works for me and many people I know, and is not for everyone. Folks can do what they feel comfortable with, use what methods appeal to them, and shouldn't feel guilty or ashamed of practicing something they find effective and that results in a good relationship with their animal.You know, I am tired of typing. I am tired of arguing. I am not going to change your mind, and you are not going to change mine. In any event, Merry Christmas, and all the best in the New Year.
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Our dog (11 years old) is a guarding biter with only things he knows will get taken away (bones he finds on a walk or human food). Now, if he gets human food we just let him have it (not worth getting bit over) and he seems to be less guarding over those situations now. Another issue is our other basenji, who never bites humans, will steal his stolen treasure, increasing his guarding instincts.
The ultimate problem I find is when he gets something he absolutely can't have, like a chicken bone and "A" you are outside with nothing to substitute it with, or "B" nothing that is better at home in his eyes for a substitute. You have to confront him for his own good. If he is outside on a leash you can try to hang him up to get him to drop it, or wait till he drops it & yank him away. Again if he is not on a leash there is not much you can do, maybe a squirt bottle, but I find he still will not give it up.
What can you do in these situations?
Maybe the plastic bat?The last 5 years they happen few & far between, because we do not let him get anything he should not have, or again he can keep it if its not dangerous to him. Walks are the worst & sometimes things just happen no matter how hard you try or you let your guard down.
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What can you do in these situations?
Maybe the plastic bat?I laughed when I read that. The good old plastic bat. I have never used one myself, but my neighbour has used it very effectively with rank stallions. It startles without really hurting, so doesn't put them on the fight. (she has trained 8 breeding stallions in the almost 30 years I have known her, and without exception they have all had wonderful manners…...necessary, because she runs a breeding operation on her own)
With a dog of that age, that you know will bite, I think discretion is the better part of valor. If you try to take the thing he is guarding, does he drop it to grab you, or does he bite after you have hold of the object? I don't like hanging a dog up, but would do it without hesitation if he was trying to bite me. At least when you have a leash on him you have that option. If a squirt bottle doesn't impress him, what about a good, high volume water pistol?
If it were me, I would definitely tackle him if he got hold of something dangerous. And take the bite if I wasn't quick enough to avoid it. If you know you are going to be bitten anyway, shoving your hand down his throat and keeping it there can make him think twice about trying that with you a second time. (very old school move. I'll make it clear I don't recommend it, but have seen it work.)
You could certainly try teaching "It's yer choice" (good description here: http://raisingk9.blogspot.com/2011/03/its-yer-choic.html) and attempt to make it a habit to give things up in the expectation of better things. The problem with this type of training is that it takes time and may or may not be transferable to a real life situation. I think you would have to practice it out and about, to have any hope of it working "in the field". Perhaps proof it by setting him up to "find" something and see if he responds appropriately. With an older dog, habits die hard. With luck and vigilance, perhaps at his age you have already "won the war".
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Barklessdog, thanks for your post, that is exactly how Oakley is and I don't think I got it across as well put as you said it. My fear is Oakley will get something he shouldn't have with my two year old nephew around and the "just leave him alone" doesn't work
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He bit me last summer, it was so fast I did not know what happened. There is no way I am going to risk that again. He just laid into my arm. It has been a long time since he last bit me. He felt he was provoked. People think I'm crazy for putting up with this all these years. I'm not afraid of him, but I'm not stupid.
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I'd like to hear from others if they would use the same methods to treat a resource guarded like they would a dog who is a rear guarded only on rare occasion because they stole something thu shouldn't have?
O wow, just saw your picture thread, that is awful, I had one of Oakley long canines go through my palm but I think it was because of force not lashing out but given the opportunity I imagine my incident could have looked like yours. It happens so fast and you can tell they dont look at you as a human anymore, it's like theyre defending against another animal for life or death. It's scary, shocking and certainly disappointing! -
Another time he bit my wife's hand when he was injured. It did nerve damage to her hand. It took about 6 months before she could use that finger without pain. They have very powerful jaws. Its not the teeth that do the damage.
I would saw 99% of the time he is fine. Its always something done to him that sets him off. He never just outright bites anyone.
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My wife & I were watching Animal Planet show "Fatal Attractions" about a man who raises a spotted Hyena in his apartment. It reminded us of our owning a basenji, which has very similar traits to the Hyena.
http://animal.discovery.com/videos/fatal-attractions-my-pet-hyena.htmlThings like them being opportunistic, self preservation instincts & those powerful jaws. Basenjis still have some primitive instincts intact, that you can control, but every once in a while they come out full force.
We love our dogs, but you have to be realistic about them and their issues. Crates & Bassenjis are a must in my opinion. It protects both of us.
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The feeling I get when in the situation ( and it's only happened twice) is that for him it's about self preservation. He lunged at me before taking the object and after. The second incidence I didn't even give him the choice ad I used my legs to get in between him and the object: and the only reason I could was because he knew I was going to take it and half let me take it but not without snarling for five minutes afterwards. This never would have been possible the first time as he would have bit my legs And not allowed me near his treasured stolen bread!
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I don't have any additional advice other than what has been offered, but you do have my sympathies. My Shiba has a long history of this. He IS a biting resource guarder. We traded up, traded up, traded up, and he's much better about it now, but he does still steal objects on occasion – especially when he feels like he is not being paid enough attention (which luckily, doesn't happen very often). If it's not dangerous, we just let him have it; to make a fuss over the object is to reward him, because that's what he was looking for. Otherwise, we still trade up. He becomes visibly less tense when we ask him, "Do you want a XXX?" (with or without the treat in hand).
One key, I have found, is to move slooowly while offering the treat. You don't have to sneak up on the object, but let him know that you do intend to take it back while keeping his attention fixated on whatever treat you're going to offer. Try to keep him under threshold of actually lunging and biting. If he manages not to respond, treat and praise.
I'm afraid this doesn't help the long-term concern of what would happen if a child happens to have their item randomly stolen. I don't live in a situation where young children are a concern, so unfortunately I have nothing to offer there.
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This thread got me interested in the subject of biting dogs…...seems the problem is on the increase lately. This bit jumped out at me from an article I read:
_Dr. Ilana Reisner, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, examined more than 100 medical records of dogs that had bitten children in order to better understand why these incidents occur.
"We found that most children had been bitten by dogs that had no history of biting," she said. "Most important here, familiar children were bitten most often in the contexts of nice interactions, such as kissing and hugging – with their own dogs or dogs that they knew."_ (emphasis mine)
I suppose if there is anything good in having had a biting or threatening experience with your dog it's that at least you are now aware of the potential problem and that you need to guard against it. Having an incident with a child come totally out of the blue from a dog you considered trustworthy must be devastating, especially if it results in serious injury and having to put the dog down.
Why do some people have problems and others never do? I think there are a lot of factors at play. Quercus wrote in response to my assertion that I haven't had a problem with any of my dogs:
Or, it could be that you haven't had a dog that was willing to bite over some item that they stole. Lucky you! Maybe it is how you handle your dogs as pups…or maybe you have just been lucky to not have a dog with temperament issues...or maybe dogs just like you better than they like other people....I don't know...
I agree, I may have been lucky. I raised only two Basenjis from pups, the other three I acquired between 8 months and 3 years of age, so their socialization was dealt with by someone else. Perhaps I should be crediting their breeders for my success, although my current boy has bitten me a few times…...never over food or theft. In fact, he bit me within hours of arriving here, when I went to remove his leash and with his breeder standing right beside me releasing the companion dog she had brought with her for the trip! Talk about an inauspicious beginning with a dog. (she was as shocked as I was!) Since then, I had one other questionable incident that I believe was set off by my body language......my mother had just died, we were en route to her funeral, I did something quickly and Perry for some reason took my action as a threat, don't know why but of course I was tense at the time. (and we hadn't had him all that long......I swear it was close to a year before he thought the arrangement was permanent!) Other than that, the only biting and attempted biting incidents with him have been when he has been in pain.....holding up icy cold feet in winter, reacting to unexpected pain while playing. I know I would never trust him with kids, because when he hurts he reacts before he thinks. I don't believe I can "fix" this. In normal conditions, he doesn't bite, and I can take anything away from him.
I am rambling. I just wanted to demonstrate that I have been where you are and know what it feels like to have a dog you love "go off" on you. Just because it wasn't for the same reasons doesn't change that sick feeling you get immediately after such an incident. My guy is good as gold, most of the time. But because I know pain is such a trigger for him, I know I can't risk an incident with a child.....or indeed an adult. If he bites me or my husband, we can deal with that. None of the bites have been serious.....barely breaking skin......and have been rare. Perhaps on average once a year. I'm glad I know he isn't trustworthy. It's better than being blindsided by an unfortunate incident.
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I appreciate the advice and am 100% on board with trading up, I used to think it was rewarding h for stealing something but it is the lesser of two evils, it is worth the aggression I fear I provoke with my approach. As you said, the more you had to do it the less escalated it becomes, I hope this will be the case with Oakley. I am happy to report that I can just about completely refocus his attention with mentioning "do you want a…."
2% chance he will finish eating his stolen treasure then go looking for a cookie! It is hard to admit the reality of having a tough dog, and orbit up to the fact that I will always ha WTO be hypervigilant with him around children, just to be safer than sorry -
I appreciate the advice and am 100% on board with trading up, I used to think it was rewarding h for stealing something but it is the lesser of two evils, it is worth the aggression I fear I provoke with my approach. As you said, the more you had to do it the less escalated it becomes, I hope this will be the case with Oakley. I am happy to report that I can just about completely refocus his attention with mentioning "do you want a…."
2% chance he will finish eating his stolen treasure then go looking for a cookie! It is hard to admit the reality of having a tough dog, and orbit up to the fact that I will always ha WTO be hypervigilant with him around children, just to be safer than sorryI have learnerd the same thing, people come over, even adults, the dogs go in their crates, for everyones protection. After being a Basenji owner for so long I could never recommend getting one to another person, why go through this if you can have an "easy" dog or a rescue from the pound?
I do love our dogs, but you have to accept what your getting into with these dogs, my question is why?
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Why? I suspect some day they will find some sort of masochism gene coupled with an oddball sense of humor gene that pair to make these dogs the delight of our days.
