@tanza thank you advice
Working Dog Basenji Pups Waiting list
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I hate to point out the obvious, but most dogs will chase a squirrel…..and catch it if they can. Bringing down a deer, OTOH, is a lot more of an accomplishment, albeit a dangerous one. Deer are hardly defenseless.....unless it was a fawn.....and in many jurisdictions it is illegal for dogs to chase them. In some places, an offense punishable by death for the dog, if caught by authorities. One of the reasons hunters employ e-collars, BTW.
I hope that Basenjis are retaining their hunting instincts and abilities, but in order for those qualities to be preserved I think it is imperative to breed for them. Selection on the basis of conformation only will almost certainly dilute the hunting abilities over time.
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Well, lucky I don't have deer running in our back yard… And IMO, form follows function... they have to have proper conformation to last in the field regardless of what they are doing. While they might hold up for a bit, poor conformation will prove out in the end in the long term.
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But they are being bred to lure course as well as conformation. Like someone said it may only be at the end of the day a plastic bag on a string but it also shows off the agility and form of the dog. If they can't perform during a lure course then I would think that they would perform poorly in a conformation ring as well. It would mean that they do not have the stamina in the field as well as the agility of the breed to make the quick turns and follow prey. Sure some may be better hunters than others but do we want as a breed to selectively breed for this which in the end may result in a purebred basenji that does not have the 'type' of a conformation basenji. How far do we want to go to 'create a line' of hunting B's and differentiate from type and what will this hunting line be like for temperment? I would think that we would be breeding for a certain type of mindset in these basenji's. Very independant, smart and possibly revert back to agressiveness, which from what I have heard has come a long way in this breed.
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This is an interesting question…...I think it boils down to "do we really want the Basenji that was shaped over thousands of years of hunting with its owners in Africa, or do we want a prettier dog that conforms to what we think it should look and act like?" Already Basenjis do not look like the original imports. If you study old pictures, I think it is clear the foundation dogs would not win in today's show ring. What we have now is more pleasing to the eye, but could these dogs make it in the real world of Africa? Those familiar with the Russian fox study will know that emphasizing one trait (in that case, friendly temperament) can drastically change another (physical appearance......in that case, coat colour).
I am not going to argue that today's dogs are not athletic, but that in itself does not equate to hunting ability. Also, you are naive if you think the breed can't eventually become less of an athlete if the criteria for breeding is determined by what is put up in the ring.......look at GSDs for an extreme example. If retaining hunting instinct is important to us, then the dogs need to be hunted. I don't expect it will ever happen, but the ideal for all breeds of dogs would be to have something like the equine warmblood testing they do in Europe. Horses that can't perform well are not acceptable for breeding. No matter how pretty they might be.
As to temperament in the Basenji, as I mentioned, my personal observation over forty years (albeit anecdotal) is the opposite of what has been reported. Think about it. To work cooperatively with humans in Africa and to share their homes, a dog would have to be decently social. I am sure a snarky, disagreeable dog would find himself in the soup pot in short order unless he was an absolutely marvelous hunter they couldn't do without!
Of course, maybe the Africans were smart enough to keep their really wonderful dogs to themselves, and pawn the less stellar specimens off on the visiting collectors. Who knows? Maybe our foundation stock were all rejects. :eek: -
edited to remove duplicate post
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krunzer
But they are being bred to lure course as well as conformation. Like someone said it may only be at the end of the day a plastic bag on a string but it also shows off the agility and form of the dog. If they can't perform during a lure course then I would think that they would perform poorly in a conformation ring as well. It would mean that they do not have the stamina in the field as well as the agility of the breed to make the quick turns and follow prey. Sure some may be better hunters than others but do we want as a breed to selectively breed for this which in the end may result in a purebred basenji that does not have the 'type' of a conformation basenji. How far do we want to go to 'create a line' of hunting B's and differentiate from type and what will this hunting line be like for temperment? I would think that we would be breeding for a certain type of mindset in these basenji's. Very independant, smart and possibly revert back to agressiveness, which from what I have heard has come a long way in this breed.Those questions are great and I think it is important that we understand that we have already created a different basenji for the show ring and lure already. It is impossible to maintain what once came from Africa so long ago in our modern society. Our requirements for dogs changes the traits of the dogs. We did this and continue to do this with all successive breeding in a modern society.
As far as show confirmation goes, who is to say that what we have here today was the original confirmation? Was their a real original "confirmation" or is it possible we made one? Again, I am new to the breed comparatively speaking and though my first dogs were in the show ring, I did not pay much attention to it…probably should have. My natural inclination is to think that we engineered the modern basenji to a certain extent and that engineering is continuing to this day.My reasoning for this hypothesis is the precedent that is in the AKC today. Many of the original dogs that had been bred for a purpose so long ago are no longer fulfilling that role and now are primarily show dogs and companions and their bodies have changed. There are distinct lines drawn between most working lines and show lines. Some dogs that had a purpose over 100 years ago can no longer fulfill the original role in any way, shape or form.
That being said, I do not think that we are creating a hunting Basenji, if anything, we have been destroying it for years. As was mentioned before, all dogs hunt, all dogs kill, all dogs track, all dogs detect things with their nose, but a true hunter, especially along the lines of what I think the basenji was at one time, does not exist at the true semi-wild hunter level with the modern basenji. It is impossible at this stage in our evolution as a fancy. I know these dogs have a wilder side than the average C. familiaris, but it is fading and one day will be gone altogether.
The question about reverting back to aggressiveness is the most important of all because aggressiveness is not necessarily a hunting trait; especially from the context that the average person may construe it. A true hunter will have traits and drive that can be a problem for a pet owner. In my world we describe them in two ways:
Prey drive, or the drive to chase, catch, and retain what is chased. The retention part of this is huge because if the dog does not maintain the quarry, it's drive may actually not be all that high. This retention can be problematic for some pet owners because the dog becomes fixated on a "thing" and won't let it out of it's mind. This drive is what makes the difference between making the kill or not. And it is important to understand that the average wild canid is unsuccessful on the vast majority of hunts…sometimes 90% unsuccessful. If the dog gives up...it's genes will not be passed on.
Hunt Drive Is often mistaken for prey drive but it is a little different, this is the drive to find a particular thing, once the thing is detected through the use for the nose. The same tenacity is me sure but the context is different. Retrieval was engineered through the use of hunt drive.
Aggression with basenjis inherently has not been related to hunting traits, IMO, so much as the basenji not being allowed to use its skills in the way that it wants to, number one. The breed is very high energy and smart. These dogs need more mental stimulation than the average dog. If they cannot get it in a way that suits them, certain neurosis can occur. Aggression is a big side effect. However, we see this every day in similarly intelligent, high energy breeds…in my world we call them "high caliber breeds".
From a training perspective, if the dogs are allowed to rule the house, they also have a tendency to be more aggressive. If nobody takes charge but the basenji, invariably, the basenji will make wrong choices. All dogs are this way, IMO.
All that being said, a hardcore hunting basenji is not for the average family because the dog will be inheritly more athletic, more intelligent, and more cunning. They will also not forget what it is they want and do just about anything to get it. I know these are B traits already and some of you are going "duh"...but, a true hunting basenji is these basenji traits we all know and love multiplied by a factor of ten. It is not so much that they will be more aggressive, but they will simply get into far more trouble if they cannot do what their DNA is screaming at them to do. This is no different than any other breed of hunting or true working dog.
To be honest with you, I think the reason we do not have these traits as much as perhaps we used to is because the average dog owner could not manage them and we slowly breed them away.or to a watered down state.
Jeff
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eeefarm…Oh my...that was great! Interestingly, we get a lots dogs out of Europe for work because the American stock can often times be so bad. There is a saying in the industry that the good Euro dogs stay in Europe because the Americans will buy anything. From my own stand point, the breeders that we do work closely with never get rid of their best dogs and are extremely selective to where even the lessor ones might go. I wonder if we have had a few fast ones pulled on us in the past!? lol...
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I don't know how it is in America, but in Norway it's forbidden to chase and kill animals with other animals. They can chase and tell, but not kill. And honestly, it's ok. We also have a pretty strick BSL around here, and it wouldn't be good to have those traits in a country like Norway. My basenji can chase if he's allowed to even though I haven't TRAINED him for that. But he can also hug a cat he sees near the road. And I don't think it would be much appreciated from my side if he chased down an elk/moose in the woods either. I do believe most basenjis have their hunting instincts intact, but in todays society, they don't really need it.
Here in Europe most basenjis are companion- and show dogs, and I believe most of the basenjis around here acts like that as well. If you really want a hardcore hunting dog, look for a patterdale terrier, perhaps.
But I do believe some dogs are easier to train than others, as individuals. My last Golden Retriever came from pure show lines, but he never did any good in shows (easier built than many others), but he worked pretty well in the woods for hunting up dummies, as he were in a good physical shape, than many other goldens around here in Scandinavia.
And GeorgiaK9 - good words!
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OK all all OFA tests were done on Kaden and his thyroid was normal. Orthopedic test results will take a bit. CERf tomorrow for both.
In the meantime, I have to get a whelping box ready and wanted to get some advice from any willing to give it. Thank you in advance!
Jeff
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This has become a complicated thread with so many different issues involved. I don't think it appropriate for it to continue under 'Basenjis for Sale or Wanted. Would it be possible to move the individual themes to more appropriate sections?
It's probably due to age but I'm finding it difficult to follow and respond to the different subjects mentioned here!!!!
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But they are being bred to lure course as well as conformation. Like someone said it may only be at the end of the day a plastic bag on a string but it also shows off the agility and form of the dog. If they can't perform during a lure course then I would think that they would perform poorly in a conformation ring as well. It would mean that they do not have the stamina in the field as well as the agility of the breed to make the quick turns and follow prey. Sure some may be better hunters than others but do we want as a breed to selectively breed for this which in the end may result in a purebred basenji that does not have the 'type' of a conformation basenji. How far do we want to go to 'create a line' of hunting B's and differentiate from type and what will this hunting line be like for temperment? I would think that we would be breeding for a certain type of mindset in these basenji's. Very independant, smart and possibly revert back to agressiveness, which from what I have heard has come a long way in this breed.
I'm pretty new in the Basenji world, but I don't think lure-coursing has much to do with keeping the hunting traits in the Basenji's. For as far as I know, Basenji's where mostly used for hunting cane rats and things like that. Quarry that isn't really fast and pretty easy to catch for a smaller dog with good sight, smell and agility. With those, it was more important to be able to move quickly through dence vegetation, then to chase game in the open fields. And when chasing larger, faster moving game, it was most likely in fields with grass so high, that a basenji would soon loose sight contact, so they had to rely on scent to track and follow the game.
What concerns driving game into nets, I haven't read or heard anything about that yet, other then it being mentioned in some breed discriptions. I can imagine that from time to time, while chasing an antilope, they would make it run towards the hunters, but I don't think they would be trained to do that. Guess it would be just a lucky coincidence if it happened.
So lure coursing is a fun game for them, but has nothing to do with the way they are used for hunting in Africa. So I wouldn't dare to say that a dog who is good at lure coursing, would show that they still have good hunting skills.From what I hear from people who are in Africa, the native basenji's over there are much more friendly, social and less independant then the modern basenji we have over here. If a dog is agressive over there, they will chase it away or kill it. They won't risk having an agressive dog around when there children are playing next to those. So the dogs need to be friendly, or they will soon loose all the benefits of being permitted to stay close to people.
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Any update on the pups? Very cool!
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Voodoo, with all due respect I suggest you continue your research. I have been a student of the breed since 1992 and everything I have ever read, seen in picture or watched in video shows the basenji as primarily a dog that drives medium to largish game into the hunters nets. Which would explain the nets the hunters are aleays carrying snd the bells the dogs are fitted with so the hunters can follow their progress.
I am sure when they are not belled they do hunt smaller game for their own survival but i do not beleive that was their primary hunting purpose.
The history of basenjis on the BCOA website is a good place to start. And their are a number of websites which have a lot of basenji history interspersed as well.
Page 255 of The African Giant copyright 1955 had this to say about the hunting dogs he calls basenjis which he was shown "When hunting they wear wooden bells tied round their loins so that they can be followed, since they can not bark. They do not lift their legs to urinate. When hunting big game, I was told their masters prime them with palm wine, but even without it they are most courageous and will attack gorilla or even elephant and lion or bush cow."
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Hi Mroach
Pups are due any day. Phoenix's temp just started to drop. We have five on X-ray.
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Very exciting!
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Pups are on the way!!!
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HI All,
Phoenix started to have pups late last night and everything went off without a hitch. *She took a rest between each little one and was done around 11PM EST. *Kelli took care of this on her own as I was in Sacramento working with our DoD contract dog at Mather air base. *Phoenix was a trooper and is taking care of her pups like she has done it a hundred times before. *
The first pup born was a little black and white who was quite noisy, cussing up a storm every time he did not get what he wanted. *This one apparently did not fall far from the Kaden tree! Phoenix had five pups altogether with the first three being black and whites and the last two dark brindle. *
I will try to keep updates on this litter flowing as we have really high hopes for this litter. I kind of fell of the face of the basenji world for a time due to a battle with cancer and then having to get my life and business back on track. I let our basenji native traits preservation project BNTPP yahoo froum kind of flounder because I just could not do it…I apologize to all of you who joined only to see it slow down to a crawl. I am working our B's again and this litter will add even more intersting things to the mix. I will post here with updates and keep a good photographic and written journal of the litter progress on BNTPP. Final testing for working pups will be done around 7 weeks of age depending on maturity. B's seem to mature as fast if not faster than other breeds we work with so my guess is 7 weeks will be good.
So, if you are interested in working and hunting basenji dialogue and pics, come on over to BNTPP for lots of details. This forum was designed to be open to anyone interested in basenji native traits. It is also a great place to post your pictures and stories about what field work you do with your basenjis. It is not just hunting, anything where the basenji gets to use its natural abilities to do something.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BNTPP/
Thanks,
Jeff
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Glad to hear the whelping went well. Interesting to hear your comment about testing at 7wks. I find that Basenji puppies are still very inmature at that age. I don't even place pups until 10wks. And temperament testing is done around 8wks. (at least for mine)
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Thank you…I have nowhere near the B litter experience that you have but of the litters I have seen, basenjis appear to me to mature far faster than than the large breeds we commonly test for work. We test all of our working stock at 7-9 weeks old for suitability traits for work. The tests take about 15 minutes per pup and there are about 15 points that we are looking for depending upon the job they may do. Maturity is a relative thing and is subjective to the individual testing; however, there is a time with puppies that their instinctual responses are free from learned behavior to a certain extent and once we get over seven weeks, we start to trend more towards learned vs. instinctual. Almost all of our Shepherds test well at seven weeks and we have never made a mistake on selection, knock on wood. The bloodhounds seem to be best around 8-9 weeks, no mistakes there yet either. With the basenjis, I actually feel that they are far more aware and adaptive at earlier ages than just about any breed we have ever tested. I remarked on this before in the BNTPP pages, hypothesizing that this may actaully be due to a genetic requirement to mature a little faster relative to the living situation the basenjis originally come from. It will be interesting to see how this litter works out...I will be watching this one more than any other in the past primarily due to all of the experience I have gained since Phoenix was born. I will Youtube the testing so folks can watch. From a precedent standpoint, I beleive Coppinger wrote on the subject of brain development at various ages and I may be wrong here, but I think he mentioned something about seven weeks being a good age to test.
Jeff
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This is all super neat! I'm totally in love with the BNTPP, even though I don't own a basenji. I will be very interested in seeing those youtube videos and in hearing updates!
