Pups :-)

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay, please tell me these are being judged as African dogs, not basenji in that because I have to agree with Maya… particularly the red Avuvi dogs look less like a basenji than many mixes I have seen. And I am simply shaking my head over the Ntomba ones too. I thought I knew what a basenji should look like but obviously I am wrong.

Tanza, thank you for posting the link with current pictures so we can see what is actually being campaigned.

In particular, I find some of the later images in this series disturbing on several levels. 😞

Kathy, I believe you are actually handling these Benin dogs in the current and very outdated photos, so I assume that you know them. Could you please identify the two bitchs that you like so much as to start this thread again (repeated from 2009) using the old photos?

Thank you.

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay, please tell me these are being judged as African dogs, not basenji in that because I have to agree with Maya… particularly the red Avuvi dogs look less like a basenji than many mixes I have seen. And I am simply shaking my head over the Ntomba ones too. I thought I knew what a basenji should look like but obviously I am wrong.

They would be judged according to the Basenji Standard.

I am sorry, but if I were the judge, I'd have refused to give anyone the winner in most those pics… which judges certainly can and have (albeit rarely) done. Am I blind? What am I missing?

@JoT:

Tanza, thank you for posting the link with current pictures so we can see what is actually being campaigned.

In particular, I find some of the later images in this series disturbing on several levels. 😞

Kathy, I believe you are actually handling these Benin dogs in the current and very outdated photos, so I assume that you know them. Could you please identify the two bitchs that you like so much as to start this thread again (repeated from 2009) using the old photos?

Thank you.

Well Dr Jo, I am not Kathy… but since we know those first pics of the pups are now adults, and we know the reds had massive white--- unless miraculously they turned solid red on their bodies, the only option are the ones listed as:
Avuvi Miflissor, Avuvi Minhoudo 13 & 15...and most probably the tri... in pics 13, 14, 15 & 16 Avuvi Djodougbe

No stacked picture but really not looking so good where they are. I would like to see stacked pictures.

@DebraDownSouth:

I am sorry, but if I were the judge, I'd have refused to give anyone the winner in most those pics… which judges certainly can and have (albeit rarely) done. Am I blind? What am I missing?

Remember this was not an AKC event but a Match and an AF match at that. So while they were being judged to the Basenji Standard you do need to take into account that they (some, not all as I am sure that the Black&Whites of Kathy's are registered) are unregistered (at this time) imports from Africa or offspring of such.

@tanza:

Usually it is a group of Basenji Fanciers that have been in the breed for a long time that go and choose. But not always. It is usually pups that are brought back and granted they don't all mature to have Basenjis Type. That is why they are then put up for evaluation to a panel that includes a long time Basenji Breeder, AKC Judge, etc. Once those evaluations are completed they are submitted to the Board of the Basenji Club of America and if accepted by the board, proposed to the membership for a vote.

As I have stated in the past, I think that the area they come from needs to be considered and the access of that area to other types of dogs that may be in that particular gene pool. Remote as possible is best, IMO. Some of the places that some of the imports have come from, IMO are not remote and way to easily accessed by both humans and animals.

I think that we have had some really great imports and that they have really been a plus to the gene pool. Others, not so much

Thanks for that info, much appreciated. It is good to know that they get assessed properly before being accepted into any breeding programmes (presumably that it what you mean, as Sharron mentioned Wheat not making the grade and being spayed).

I think it can only be a good thing to add new genes from quality dogs. I know we have a couple of basenjis bitches due to arrive here in the UK from african breeding and from what i've seen, both look very nice and certainly basenji "type", im sure they will add a lot to the breed over here. If only I could afford to import, i'd love to do it 🙂

@Quercus:

Well, hopefully, you would contact the breeder (particularly a BCOA breeder) to get the facts straight before you would spread any information that you had gotten second or third hand? I mean, sending someone to the OFA site is one thing, insinuating that you know what is going through someone's mind based on their testing history is quite another.

Any information I have collected and stored in my personal database over the years has either come via the owner and/or breeder via public means (OFA, chat groups, lists etc) or it has been privately verified by me if received via the rumor mill. But I was not discussing the info I have collected nor did I say anything about sharing this kind of information nor did I say anything about gossip mongering, passing along 2nd or 3rd hand information, or insinuating I know, much less tell another, what I thought was going through the head of a breeder.

In truth - I am not even sure where your implication even comes from Andrea since all I wrote was "point them in the right direction"; to mean (to me) one or more of the following: to OFA, CERF, to the breeder of the dogs behind the line, to owners of dogs bred by the breeder or down from the dogs or in any way related that could give first hand info on health, temperaments, etc. behind the dogs they are looking at; all dependent on what info the person is looking for of course.

Jess - I would recommend you (or anyone) interested in learning about the BCOA procedures for Native Stock acceptance to visit and read up on it:

https://www.basenji.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=98

(if this does not work go to https://www.basenji.org/joomla/ > members > native stock committee )

Native stock imported abroad have different protocols in place so one would need to contact the owners of these imports to find out how they were eventually accepted.

Debra which Ntomba dog did you not like? N. Mobengi or N. Mosika who I see actually won, defeating an AKC registered and AKC pointed 1/2 African, or both?

Mobengi, btw, has not been put forth for AKC yet so is not AKC registered at this time. Mosika has and is (AKC registered that is).

I have heard too Mosika is well on his way (winning two 5pt majors in stiff competition by winning Specialty Best in Field at the specialty and then BOB at the all breed trial) to becoming the first 100% native dog with an AKC Field championship. As someone said "I think that's pretty cool for a puppy from the jungle." It is so nice to see folks doing things with their imports so my hats are off to the Gregory's; I love it when folks make history and love it even more when native stock or their high percent descendents do it.

When looking at any dog - domestic or non-domestic - the whole dog, IMO, needs to be evaluated starting at the feet - not just focusing on bits and pieces we may not like and then unable to look further. There are many domestic dogs - from responsible breeders to puppy mills - that I personally think the sum of their parts is complete junk but I would not consider them less of a purebred because of it.

In fact - there is nothing in any of the imports I have seen that I have not seen, either in person or historically, in domestic basenjis: lack of white, too much white, odd colors, sickle tails, longer coats, shorter legs, longer backs, large ears, etc. Perhaps that is why I feel I can be more forgiving of any deviant parts.

Now then - while on the subject of pictures of native puppies growing up - Jo do you have current pictures from your Lukuru six pack? I sure would love to see how they are developing now that they are close to 9 months old. I imagine I am not the only one. I was disappointed the one male in that neck of the woods was not at the Willamette Af match strutting his stuff.

@sinbaje:

Any information I have collected and stored in my personal database over the years has either come via the owner and/or breeder via public means (OFA, chat groups, lists etc) or it has been privately verified by me if received via the rumor mill. But I was not discussing the info I have collected nor did I say anything about sharing this kind of information nor did I say anything about gossip mongering, passing along 2nd or 3rd hand information, or insinuating I know, much less tell another, what I thought was going through the head of a breeder.

In truth - I am not even sure where your implication even comes from Andrea since all I wrote was "point them in the right direction"; to mean (to me) one or more of the following: to OFA, CERF, to the breeder of the dogs behind the line, to owners of dogs bred by the breeder or down from the dogs or in any way related that could give first hand info on health, temperaments, etc. behind the dogs they are looking at; all dependent on what info the person is looking for of course.

.

Oh good…I must have misunderstood what you were saying...

Linda,
You can blame me for not attending with Jo's pup, although I wasn't feeling well I had hoped to make it. I had anticipated the African match following the conformation specialty as in years past and was surprised it was being held at a coursing event. I have volunteered to show Dexter (Jo's pup in this area that you mentioned in your post) so entries and showing are left entirely up to me, in case you're wondering why I am answering you in regards to this post.
Therese

Therese, are you feeling better now? Are you and some of your dog going to the national? Is there an african showing there? Sorry, I don't get the catalog.

I have to agree with Linda, in that I didn't find anything too objectionable about any of the dogs shown in the pics. All of them (full Afs) had good enough type (IMO) and most of them had some fairly obvious faults…but the goal for imports is not to be a winning show dog, the goal is to have something significant to add to the breed. I was (am) a little concerned that the three female Avuvis looked terrified, but since Kathy was helping handle, maybe she can elaborate on the 'whole' story...by that I mean, maybe the pics captured the worst moments, and not the best...

@Maya:

It is good to know that they get assessed properly before being accepted into any breeding programmes

Um… people are breeding them as they want. BUT they do have to be evaluated before being registered as a Basenji.

@sinbaje:

Debra which Ntomba dog did you not like? N. Mobengi or N. Mosika who I see actually won, defeating an AKC registered and AKC pointed 1/2 African, or both?

I think Mobengi looks like a mix of a GSD/Ridgeback and something… not Basenji so much.
I like the body much more on Mosika but the pictures don't impress me as being great. Field champion, nice, but I certainly lack the experience and eye to see a BOB conformation in him.

Kathy Britton, since you started this thread, are you still interested in showing us current photos of the pups you first posted?

Sharron,
I am pretty sure that the pups pictured in the first post are the same ones in the link Pat (Tanza) posted for the African match a couple pages back. The top pup is Miflissor, the tri is Dodougbe, and the third pup is Minhoudo. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any real good stacked photos in that group of photos so it is hard to tell what they really look like now.

Thanks for that information, Robyn.

Ok so I dont wade into too many debates on here, but…

I have been thinking about these dogs that were shown at the Af match, (since yesterday), and from the pics that Pat put up, the 3 Avuvi dogs are IMHO, worrying. Im not talking about their Basenji type, I just dont feel qualified enough to comment on that, albeit, I do have my opinion :D... I dont know if the pics from Pats linky is just taken at the wrong time, (as Quercus mentioned) BUT, these dogs dont look at all like the type of temperament that we need to introduce back into the breed, (IF, they were presented and accepted by the BCOA)...

A recent thread had comments about how much the temperament had improved in the breed over the last 10 or so years. Comments about their biting, growling, human and dog aggression etc, etc, painted a pretty nasty picture of them. I know I have spoken to many Aussie breeders about their, (overall), temperaments, and all agree that we also, have improved this in Australia as well. I have also had judges, normally All Breed judges, commenting that B's have had a HUGE improvement in their temperaments over the last 10 or so years as well. Some admitted that the Basenji is the one breed of dog that still frightens them :eek:...

So my question is...

If the pics taken at the Af match are a true representation of these dogs temperaments, do we really need this 'bred' back into the breed as a whole ???

Flame suit on, while running backwards, out of the room, very quickly 😃

@saba:

If the pics taken at the Af match are a true representation of these dogs temperaments, do we really need this 'bred' back into the breed as a whole ???

I'm wondering how you assessed temperament based on photos?

@YodelDogs:

I'm wondering how you assessed temperament based on photos?

I am pretty sure that she is going by body language of the dogs in those pictures. I came to the exact same conclusion. To me, they look frozen with fear.

@YodelDogs:

I'm wondering how you assessed temperament based on photos?

The saying 'a picture paints a thousand words' jumps to mind here ;)…

@Tanza:

I am pretty sure that she is going by body language of the dogs in those pictures. I came to the exact same conclusion. To me, they look frozen with fear.

Frozen in fear explains it perfectly…

They sure looked scared to me.

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