I don't know if you have found a puppy but I have a friend that had an accidental litter. Because it was unplanned they did not have homes waiting. They have 4 black/white girls available and they are being raised with a wonderful family with 4 adult basenjis and two young children who are great with dogs. These pups will be well socialized and great family dogs. If you are interested let me know and I'll send you her contact info privately.
I often have people ask me for references as a breeder. I tell them the same thing I told people in the past about my "personal" belief about "references" and "endorsements" of someone.
When someone gives you a reference and contact info they will likely provided you with someone they know will point out all their best qualities. They certainly are not going to give you contact information of someone they were unfair to or that was unhappy with them, be it intentional or not or be it valid or not.
Its a bit like asking the butcher if the roast beef is fresh, really? what do you think he will say. "Yes, its fresh".
What I find amazing is that my thread, which I repeatedly posted I had no intention of attacking anyone, but wanted to clarify things was removed. I also find it interesting that BYB and puppy mills have been identified on this list several times to help people not get into situations and those people have been named publicly. So why would it be appropriate for someone to endorse or recommend someone on this list by name but not allow someone else to share their experience with the same person?
But for the record Linda, thanks for telling everyone the roast beef is fresh. I apologize for the sarcasm I'm just a bit frustrated at how unfair this is.
Therese (who will now respect the list moderators removal of this topic)
Linda, Your post does not surprise me at all. As you have not personally been to Rose Marie Holt's home I believe you yourself are doing exactly what you claim I am doing;
using a "personal belief system vs. any substantiated evidence". I am comfortable with posts I have recieved personally from Rose Marie as well as posts she has posted to several lists regarding how her dogs live to post what I posted.
When you do have a chance to catch up on posts you may wish to read that one discussion was in regards to the fact that anyone putting imports up for acceptance is asking us to "trust" them. I believe this means Rose Marie is directly asking the BCOA membership to take her at her word regarding her dogs and where they were imported from, also her personal choices in regards to how and why she selected the dogs she selected. Rose Marie has been very outspoken about several of those points in articles, on lists and in emails to many.
I also believe she has given myself reason to doubt her word and so given a situation that she is asking me to take her "word" for it, that will not be easy for me. I have stacks of emails to support this and until now have chosen not to speak out publicly about what she has written to me privately.
You are very welcome to stand on a roof top and call out support for Rose Marie but to claim you are only doing so to off set someone else's take is a puzzling to me.
I think you may have also missed my point… encouraging people to contact importers directly and research for themselves, not taking them or anyone just at their word. I agree people should make up their own minds.
I hope my tone doesn't come across as mean spirited or nasty, I must admit when you post replies to me I find myself feeling attacked by you Linda and I struggle to not be defensive, I guess you and I just rub each other the wrong way. I certainly can live with the fact not all of us see eye to eye.
My commenting on Rose Marie is also not intended to be a personal attack, I seriously feel empathy for her health issues, but I do think this is too important an issue to not consider everything involved.
So sorry list members if I sound like I'm picking on Rose Marie, I just wanted to clarify who I was speaking of to avoid all the stepping around and risking offense to the wrong people. As I said I'll take my lumps for this because I believe its important to our breed.
Thank you Lisa for explaining this so well, boy the teacher in you really came through in this post. Well done!
For me I agree about the area, the confusion I face about the area is that I understood some dogs were brought to importers from different areas. For instance are all Avongara dogs from the same area or how close to each other are those areas. Or the Avuvi's, there have been more than one trip to import these dogs with these prefixes and so I would wonder about the "areas" these dogs came from.
Does the process allow for regional submissions or is that identified by the prefix of the dogs ie; Ntomba, Avuvi, Lukuru, Avongara.
I love that this is being clarified so we can all better understand the importance of all the details.
Debra, the vote I received as a BCOA member was for a group of dogs and you could not vote for one and not the other. Do you mean they are individually voted on by the BOD of the BCOA before the membership votes?
Thanks for clarifying for me, unless something has changed.
I wanted to ask a couple questions to see if everyone out there is finding the same points confusing. And I will bravely state my personal opinion about the process…I will step back in case my computer explodes for what I am about to share.
As I understand the stud book process, the dogs are accepted by the BCOA board after evaluations are done and along with information from the importers submitted to the BOD.
Then as I understand it a group of dogs is submitted to the membership for vote.
My first question is this, if I find one or more of the submitted group are not up to my standards for any reason as a voting member would I have to vote "no" for the entire group. I might be inclined to let a dog through if there were others in the group I felt could be of value. Sooo...that said if I as a voting member and voice my opinion as "no" can any of the dogs in that group resubmit in another group? Or how many times can a dog be submitted? I don't really understand why I can't vote for individual dogs, other than yes I know its a rule in the process.
There has been talk about why anyone would not vote for a dog that has been through the process and also talk about trusting the importers being a value. I am aware of evaluators that have said they would not consider breeding dogs they gave an evaluation to, and that they were unclear about what "as a breed" our goal was bringing these dogs in. Yet these dogs got passing scores. Yes health testing is important and great to see but dogs can still develope health issues at older ages that we won't know with no real family history. That is a risk all breeders have to take when starting out so what we can get is helpful but not written in stone.
So although it is an overall consideration for me I believe trusting the importers and knowing more about the areas (not just location) these dogs come from is helpful to me when making my personal decision.
I think Bryan's post about his background and experience is great but to be honest I think Jo did as well picking her Lukuru dogs and she had no history as a breeder. The area was the key in her situation and the isolation supported the type in the dogs she sees in the Lukuru dogs.
Having said that I have also been concerned that recently there have been people who do not have experience Bryan points out having that have traveled to areas that are heavily traveled and brought back dogs I would seriously be concerned with being let into our stud book. We have all avoided talking about Rose Marie Holt because she is not on this list but just recently she posted a rescue dog was a basenji that immediately was identified as a NSD and when NSD breeders were contacted they immediately recognized the dog as NSD or a possible mix. So I'm going out on a limb and saying this topic was an off shoot of photos submitted by Kathy Britton of Rose Marie's dogs that attended a recent african match. I have seen posts by Rose Marie and how she feels about not just coat color but texture and breeding type that concern me greatly. I have had concern for the care and maintenance of her dogs from posts she has posted on several lists and
My intent is not to attack but to clearly state that I would like to encourage all BCOA members to research all dogs put forward for vote into the stud book and consider heavily all the factors surrounding these dogs.
Sharon was right when she said those of us who feel strongly about the subject care about the breed.
Importing dogs for stud book is not a venture everyone could take on, but also not a venture that everyone has the same motive for taking on.
While I am not questioning anyone's specific motives I did point this out to help clarify to Bryan why I personally would question some dogs and consider not voting for some dogs put up for vote. I personally will judge each dog on its own merit and the information provided and that I can find online from the importers or by speaking to the importers themselves. I encourage everyone to do the same.
Most importers are in the roster, contact them directly if you have questions about any dogs that come up for vote. It would be a great opprotunity for further education about your breed, even if you aren't a breeder or don't intend to breed to imports. Its for our future.
My worry at this point is people voting "yes" because dogs have gone through the process even though they may not feel they should be voted in. As members we still have a voice, that is why our vote is important and that means voting "for" or "against" acceptance with the proper knowledge.
Okay, stepping back now…whew. Sorry so long winded.:o
This post is titled Ntomba imports and I would like to discuss the process of imports and stud book acceptance without people assuming I am talking about Ntomba dogs so I would like to start another thread about the process.
Just wanted to clarify why I am not just responding here about this.
eeeefarm, sorry don't know what to call you. It's interesting you bring up termperament. At a recent specialty here in the PNW a judge when discussing her choices in the ring told a large group at our banquet we are breeding dogs that are "too easy" to live with. She is a breeder judge (long time) and said we are breeding away from the original temperament of the breed by breeding the type of temperaments she was seeing. The dogs I showed her as well as the dog she gave the breed to are confident, curious and outgoing and yes pretty easy to live with.
I completely agree that using one criteria is not the best approach but how to test these dogs for athletic function is tricky, my best rabbit hunter that has to date taken out more wild rabbits at my house than all my dogs combined won't lure course to save her life. Yet she has produced a daughter that is ranked #1 in AKC coursing right now.
I understand it's tough to judge the individual dog, that's why I would like to see more information about where the dogs came from and what the dogs within the same village look like as added info.
Someone posted to this forum just today about a dog named Cash that is a basenji mix, he looks a bit like photos I have seen of dogs in villages that have been shared with us from trips to Africa. Here we were quick to say "mix" I would like to see us consider what may be in the mix with imports a bit more.
I cared for a litter of pups for a humane society, mom was not well and pups had a better chance not being in a shelter setting, pups were all four black/white looked like a cross between lab/border collie/****ers. I still laugh at all the vets that told us there was absolutely no hound in these pups, we would always wait to bring mom in, she was a blood hound black/red, small but likely pure bred. She delivered pups that looked nothing like her, but I wonder what they would have produced if bred to a blood hound?
I would just like us to see all the info we can on the imports we approve and like you not just rely on what wins in the ring to judge how these dogs look, heaven knows that doesn't always match our standard even though it should.
I get a mix of squat vs leg lift, he may be doing it now because lifting is a bit tender yet. I have intact boys that squat and lift and neutered boys that do both as well. It seems to be a trait of each dog. I also had Luci who lifted her leg well into old age until she was too wobbly to continue lifting. Then there is Jordan Reed's girl Dot that balances on her front feet and lifts both rear feet completely off the ground, we keep begging him to video it. She walks while peeing like so many b's but in a full on hand stand, it's the silliest thing I've ever seen.