Posts made by Therese Leimback

So sorry for your loss, bless you for caring for Jazzy and for making the toughest decision any of us ever has to make.
Therese and Kevin Leimback
FoPaw's Basenjis

I don't know if you have found a puppy but I have a friend that had an accidental litter. Because it was unplanned they did not have homes waiting. They have 4 black/white girls available and they are being raised with a wonderful family with 4 adult basenjis and two young children who are great with dogs. These pups will be well socialized and great family dogs. If you are interested let me know and I'll send you her contact info privately.
Therese

I often have people ask me for references as a breeder. I tell them the same thing I told people in the past about my "personal" belief about "references" and "endorsements" of someone.
When someone gives you a reference and contact info they will likely provided you with someone they know will point out all their best qualities. They certainly are not going to give you contact information of someone they were unfair to or that was unhappy with them, be it intentional or not or be it valid or not.
Its a bit like asking the butcher if the roast beef is fresh, really? what do you think he will say. "Yes, its fresh".
What I find amazing is that my thread, which I repeatedly posted I had no intention of attacking anyone, but wanted to clarify things was removed. I also find it interesting that BYB and puppy mills have been identified on this list several times to help people not get into situations and those people have been named publicly. So why would it be appropriate for someone to endorse or recommend someone on this list by name but not allow someone else to share their experience with the same person?
But for the record Linda, thanks for telling everyone the roast beef is fresh. I apologize for the sarcasm I'm just a bit frustrated at how unfair this is.
Therese (who will now respect the list moderators removal of this topic)

Linda, Your post does not surprise me at all. As you have not personally been to Rose Marie Holt's home I believe you yourself are doing exactly what you claim I am doing;
using a "personal belief system vs. any substantiated evidence". I am comfortable with posts I have recieved personally from Rose Marie as well as posts she has posted to several lists regarding how her dogs live to post what I posted.
When you do have a chance to catch up on posts you may wish to read that one discussion was in regards to the fact that anyone putting imports up for acceptance is asking us to "trust" them. I believe this means Rose Marie is directly asking the BCOA membership to take her at her word regarding her dogs and where they were imported from, also her personal choices in regards to how and why she selected the dogs she selected. Rose Marie has been very outspoken about several of those points in articles, on lists and in emails to many.
I also believe she has given myself reason to doubt her word and so given a situation that she is asking me to take her "word" for it, that will not be easy for me. I have stacks of emails to support this and until now have chosen not to speak out publicly about what she has written to me privately.
You are very welcome to stand on a roof top and call out support for Rose Marie but to claim you are only doing so to off set someone else's take is a puzzling to me.
I think you may have also missed my point… encouraging people to contact importers directly and research for themselves, not taking them or anyone just at their word. I agree people should make up their own minds.
I hope my tone doesn't come across as mean spirited or nasty, I must admit when you post replies to me I find myself feeling attacked by you Linda and I struggle to not be defensive, I guess you and I just rub each other the wrong way. I certainly can live with the fact not all of us see eye to eye.
My commenting on Rose Marie is also not intended to be a personal attack, I seriously feel empathy for her health issues, but I do think this is too important an issue to not consider everything involved.
So sorry list members if I sound like I'm picking on Rose Marie, I just wanted to clarify who I was speaking of to avoid all the stepping around and risking offense to the wrong people. As I said I'll take my lumps for this because I believe its important to our breed.
Therese

Thank you Lisa for explaining this so well, boy the teacher in you really came through in this post. Well done!
For me I agree about the area, the confusion I face about the area is that I understood some dogs were brought to importers from different areas. For instance are all Avongara dogs from the same area or how close to each other are those areas. Or the Avuvi's, there have been more than one trip to import these dogs with these prefixes and so I would wonder about the "areas" these dogs came from.
Does the process allow for regional submissions or is that identified by the prefix of the dogs ie; Ntomba, Avuvi, Lukuru, Avongara.
I love that this is being clarified so we can all better understand the importance of all the details.
Therese

Debra, the vote I received as a BCOA member was for a group of dogs and you could not vote for one and not the other. Do you mean they are individually voted on by the BOD of the BCOA before the membership votes?
Thanks for clarifying for me, unless something has changed.
Therese

I wanted to ask a couple questions to see if everyone out there is finding the same points confusing. And I will bravely state my personal opinion about the process…I will step back in case my computer explodes for what I am about to share.
As I understand the stud book process, the dogs are accepted by the BCOA board after evaluations are done and along with information from the importers submitted to the BOD.
Then as I understand it a group of dogs is submitted to the membership for vote.
My first question is this, if I find one or more of the submitted group are not up to my standards for any reason as a voting member would I have to vote "no" for the entire group. I might be inclined to let a dog through if there were others in the group I felt could be of value. Sooo...that said if I as a voting member and voice my opinion as "no" can any of the dogs in that group resubmit in another group? Or how many times can a dog be submitted? I don't really understand why I can't vote for individual dogs, other than yes I know its a rule in the process.
There has been talk about why anyone would not vote for a dog that has been through the process and also talk about trusting the importers being a value. I am aware of evaluators that have said they would not consider breeding dogs they gave an evaluation to, and that they were unclear about what "as a breed" our goal was bringing these dogs in. Yet these dogs got passing scores. Yes health testing is important and great to see but dogs can still develope health issues at older ages that we won't know with no real family history. That is a risk all breeders have to take when starting out so what we can get is helpful but not written in stone.
So although it is an overall consideration for me I believe trusting the importers and knowing more about the areas (not just location) these dogs come from is helpful to me when making my personal decision.
I think Bryan's post about his background and experience is great but to be honest I think Jo did as well picking her Lukuru dogs and she had no history as a breeder. The area was the key in her situation and the isolation supported the type in the dogs she sees in the Lukuru dogs.
Having said that I have also been concerned that recently there have been people who do not have experience Bryan points out having that have traveled to areas that are heavily traveled and brought back dogs I would seriously be concerned with being let into our stud book. We have all avoided talking about Rose Marie Holt because she is not on this list but just recently she posted a rescue dog was a basenji that immediately was identified as a NSD and when NSD breeders were contacted they immediately recognized the dog as NSD or a possible mix. So I'm going out on a limb and saying this topic was an off shoot of photos submitted by Kathy Britton of Rose Marie's dogs that attended a recent african match. I have seen posts by Rose Marie and how she feels about not just coat color but texture and breeding type that concern me greatly. I have had concern for the care and maintenance of her dogs from posts she has posted on several lists and
My intent is not to attack but to clearly state that I would like to encourage all BCOA members to research all dogs put forward for vote into the stud book and consider heavily all the factors surrounding these dogs.
Sharon was right when she said those of us who feel strongly about the subject care about the breed.
Importing dogs for stud book is not a venture everyone could take on, but also not a venture that everyone has the same motive for taking on.
While I am not questioning anyone's specific motives I did point this out to help clarify to Bryan why I personally would question some dogs and consider not voting for some dogs put up for vote. I personally will judge each dog on its own merit and the information provided and that I can find online from the importers or by speaking to the importers themselves. I encourage everyone to do the same.
Most importers are in the roster, contact them directly if you have questions about any dogs that come up for vote. It would be a great opprotunity for further education about your breed, even if you aren't a breeder or don't intend to breed to imports. Its for our future.
My worry at this point is people voting "yes" because dogs have gone through the process even though they may not feel they should be voted in. As members we still have a voice, that is why our vote is important and that means voting "for" or "against" acceptance with the proper knowledge.
Okay, stepping back now…whew. Sorry so long winded.:o
Therese

This post is titled Ntomba imports and I would like to discuss the process of imports and stud book acceptance without people assuming I am talking about Ntomba dogs so I would like to start another thread about the process.
Just wanted to clarify why I am not just responding here about this.
Therese

eeeefarm, sorry don't know what to call you. It's interesting you bring up termperament. At a recent specialty here in the PNW a judge when discussing her choices in the ring told a large group at our banquet we are breeding dogs that are "too easy" to live with. She is a breeder judge (long time) and said we are breeding away from the original temperament of the breed by breeding the type of temperaments she was seeing. The dogs I showed her as well as the dog she gave the breed to are confident, curious and outgoing and yes pretty easy to live with.

I completely agree that using one criteria is not the best approach but how to test these dogs for athletic function is tricky, my best rabbit hunter that has to date taken out more wild rabbits at my house than all my dogs combined won't lure course to save her life. Yet she has produced a daughter that is ranked #1 in AKC coursing right now.

I understand it's tough to judge the individual dog, that's why I would like to see more information about where the dogs came from and what the dogs within the same village look like as added info.

Someone posted to this forum just today about a dog named Cash that is a basenji mix, he looks a bit like photos I have seen of dogs in villages that have been shared with us from trips to Africa. Here we were quick to say "mix" I would like to see us consider what may be in the mix with imports a bit more.

I cared for a litter of pups for a humane society, mom was not well and pups had a better chance not being in a shelter setting, pups were all four black/white looked like a cross between lab/border collie/****ers. I still laugh at all the vets that told us there was absolutely no hound in these pups, we would always wait to bring mom in, she was a blood hound black/red, small but likely pure bred. She delivered pups that looked nothing like her, but I wonder what they would have produced if bred to a blood hound?
I would just like us to see all the info we can on the imports we approve and like you not just rely on what wins in the ring to judge how these dogs look, heaven knows that doesn't always match our standard even though it should.
Therese

I get a mix of squat vs leg lift, he may be doing it now because lifting is a bit tender yet. I have intact boys that squat and lift and neutered boys that do both as well. It seems to be a trait of each dog. I also had Luci who lifted her leg well into old age until she was too wobbly to continue lifting. Then there is Jordan Reed's girl Dot that balances on her front feet and lifts both rear feet completely off the ground, we keep begging him to video it. She walks while peeing like so many b's but in a full on hand stand, it's the silliest thing I've ever seen.

I am also really enjoying this topic and would like to agree with LVoss in her posts. But I might also like to add that the form follows function argument has always thrown me a bit. Last time I checked basenjis in Africa aren't found chasing plastic bags. I also have watched my dogs hunt and see they are great at flushing bunnies, hunting in under brush for mice, digging out moles and snagging birds mid air, I have not seen any of my dogs hunt my property by running game down in open fields, for one thing most game is smarter than that. The means in which my dogs do successfully hunt is appropriate for their structure and size.
Watching lure coursing I see larger longer leg males faster on the straight stretch while smaller agile bitches lower to the ground catch up on the corners. So using lure coursing as a identifier of function could lead to one saying longer leg dogs are faster, as well as longer backed, yet shorter legged shorter backed dogs corner better that is a slippery slope.
Personally I have seen a German short hair pointer run the lure course at my place and he was out in front of the whippet in the straight stretch, but the whippet caught him in the corner. I still wouldn't consider the GSP a whippet or basenji even though he loved coursing.
I think we have to keep in mind the standard and the purpose behind the standard and that is also why I appreciate coursing dogs should follow standards. I have seen field golden retrievers and they look nothing like ring goldens, how sad it would be if we allowed our standard to be altered from its original intent, neither dog should dictate a change in standard alone.
I believe our standard allows for differences and for actual "function" as it should be. I think a dog being considered basenji because of his coursing ability is a risky gamble. I also think we need to consider seeing photos of all dogs within an area whenever possible because what appears to be "basenji" like could produce something very different. I have friends who were in Peace corp that both had basenjis while in the Congo. One dog that was brought back is slightly larger and although lets out a single bark she also yodels, however she has a very clear distinct ridge down her back. Her head looks very much like a ridge back head with upright ears. She was a street dog and how she was produced a mystery. Other friends had a boy that looked very much like our basenjis however he was out of a litter of three pups and all pups had been given to Peace corp workers, the mother was also seen. Having had photos of the dogs in the village that dog came from would further support the "basenji" type coming out of the area.
I think the idea of sticking as closely as possible to our standard and building a strong line with imports as some have is the important thing to keep an eye on. I think there is nothing wrong with being selective about the dogs we allow into the stud book, maybe we should have considered that when deciding to vote on a group as a whole instead of an individual dog.
Just my two cents.

I would love to know how to get a "Stepford" basenji. Kipawa's sister has turned into her own evil twin this week. This morning Kevin took a small pillow away from her and put it back, a few minutes later she walked over picked it up and stood just out of his reach and shook it to get his attention. When he stood up to take the pillow she dropped it and wagged her "precious" little tail at him. He actually said, okay maybe she is being a little defiant. (mmm. yah think?) This week anyway I might just trade her for an imposter dog.
I think it really is just training catching up, boy I sure hope it catches up here soon
Therese

Linda,
You can blame me for not attending with Jo's pup, although I wasn't feeling well I had hoped to make it. I had anticipated the African match following the conformation specialty as in years past and was surprised it was being held at a coursing event. I have volunteered to show Dexter (Jo's pup in this area that you mentioned in your post) so entries and showing are left entirely up to me, in case you're wondering why I am answering you in regards to this post.
Therese

I will add that basenji pups Kipawa's age often go through what we lovingly refer to as "puppy spooks". Kipawa had a half brother years ago named Mojo that went through this. At the age of 10 months out of the blue he suddenly became terrified of his own shadow. We luckily were aware of this kind of thing and had learned to not react to the fear or try flooding him with what frightened him. We reassured him in a very matter of fact way and only slightly changed our approach it seemed to disappear on its own over the next couple months.
If this is a stage for like puppy spooks it usually hits our kids between 9-13 months at any given time and can be anything. Just unexplained and usually not seen before and usually not over anything new. Sounds like this may fit what he is doing.
I tend to agree with Debra, ignore may be your best bet.
Therese

Chealsie508, I am sure you may have already considered this so not suggesting you haven't already but just in case. We discovered in basenjis that when they are fed can play a role in soft vs hard stool. Not with all mind you but with some.
I originally fed twice a day and had some loose stool issues as well as trouble keeping wt on my kids. Then we switched to once a day feeding with treats and weight was much improved. I fed in the evening and although loose stools seemed frequent it wasn't ill appearing just softer stools. I read some articles about feeding schedules and found that feeding in the morning would firm up stools, we began doing that 2 years ago and it worked.
I'm not suggesting as I said that Oakley is an easy fix just thought if he has consistantly soft stool this might be an advantage to him.
I do also believe some dogs just do better on different foods for many reasons, we do so why wouldn't they?
I'm also sure you checked your water situation, I lived in the city and my dogs on city water didn't do as well so I gave them bottled water which they did better on, both stool wise and drinking. With my well water they have done really well. I don't think they always tolerated the chemicals city water companies add.
Just for what its worth
Therese

Hi there,
I have not personally used Orijen, many people I know have used it and like it. I always like to have a couple back ups in case ie; the company sells and changes formula, an individual dog has a specific issue, or I am some place I can't get a food I am using.
Just thought it would help to see the link with where to buy local for another option for your pup.
Therese

First here is a link to places you can also purchase Taste of the Wild near Manitoba, I believe several on this list including myself feed it with success to pups and adults. http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/dealer_locator/
What is often overlooked when a puppy goes to a new home is the water he cosumes. I personally have a well with filtered water that does not have the additives some city water has so I often recommend using bottled water for the first couple weeks adding in your own water. This will often cause loose stool in a pup. But for the record a pup this young I would be over cautious if anything and get him checked out. Better to find out it is something easily treated since caught early than to have a very sick pup after waiting a bit of time.
I didn't read all the posts so sorry if this was already covered or you have already had him checked. just thought the link and water might be useful info.
Good luck with your new family member.
Therese

Congrats they are very pretty, I know tri is popular but I would love to steal that little red girl from you.
Wishing you continued success with these two!
Therese and Kev

Well Kipawa is the son of my boy Sober. We refer to Sober as our lead dog in our group. He is that because he and the other dogs have determined he approaches new things first (amoung other behaviors) and he trains manners in our young dogs. The other dogs in my house have a clear respect for him and even new dogs are quick to submit to inspection from him. I avoid calling him dominant because that word seems to draw fire in the dog world with new training methods and I don't really know that describes what he is.
Sober is also a therapy dog and exceptionally good with small children and the tiniest of dogs. He completely respects me and my husband and without much formal training is probably one of my best trained dogs.
That said he (who Kipawa is very much like) is very strong willed. He is fair but stands his ground on things and will try to take over a situation with someone he feels is not equiped to handle things. He was a juniors dog for 2 years and he seemed to take the junior under his wing and teach him how to show, people who know him were amazed to watch him lead that junior around the ring, and that was what he was doing.
I like what our trainer tells us, we make deals with our dogs as they do with each other. My deal with Sober is I take care of him and he trusts me, he follows my lead respectfully. But I also know that deal includes him stepping up to take over if something were to happen to me, he would quickly take the lead then.
When Fran took Kipawa we warned her consistant fair ongoing training would give her a Sober in her house, but letting him take over or encouraging it will likely give him license to challenge situations. I think she and Darrell understand this and are doing a great job. I think continuing what they plan will be great and they will have an amazing adult dog when he is finished.
Kipawa is out of a line that matures very slowly and for his health and well being we believe in his case it would be good to wait to neuter him when he is fully mature. I don't believe behavior is greatly effected by neutering a young male, we have had intact and neutered brothers that were here and there was no difference in behavior, they were little clones of each other at 2yrs old.
Kipawa's grandpa on his mom's side has peed on people, he likes to pee up and if you don't walk him to something to pee on he will pee on what is close and upright. If given a choice (off lead) he will not chose to pee on a person. But I have also seen he and Sober pee toward each other through a fence, if watching it appears to really be a "pissing match".
I have over the years seen males pee on females during breeding season but not often. I have also seen dogs pee on each other in error, one didn't move when they are both sniffing the same spot.
I always remind myself of what someone once told me, to us things smell bad or good but to our dogs they just smell different. They answer what they smell in a couple different ways, mouth it, roll in it, curl your lip at it or pee on it. I do believe there are as many theories as to why as there are trainers in the world.
I think the key is chaning the behavior, by peeing Kipawa out (maybe only a dribble will remain as would with my boys) it will likely not cause as much embarassment or damage while the behavior is corrected. If Kipawa has his dad's bladder (which he did when he lived here) he can pee quite a lake if left to his own.
You guys are great with all the info you have passed on, I love reading this thread and even encouraged Fran to ask about when people neuter males and why on the forum.
I agree, if there were a like button I'd push it…not that I like pee but I do like the topic.
Therese

I don't currently vaccinate for Lepto, although I had heard like Andrea its on the rise in our area see link from Seattle PI below.
http://www.seattledogspot.com/2011/01/20/leptospirosis-in-pets-on-the-rise-in-western-washington/

I have been concerned about using the vaccine because it is a killed vaccine which I concerns with due to studies done over many years. Also AAHA really isn't able to recommend it based on research available. It is also very important to not vaccinate puppies under 12 weeks with Lepto which some people do when they use combo shots with their puppies, one more reason I am not a fan of combo shots. See link of AAHA Lepto recommendations below.
http://secure.aahanet.org/eweb/dynamicpage.aspx?site=resources&webcode=CanineVaccineGuidelines
Personally I have a spirochete due to having Lyme's (or as Kevin calls it Leimback-teria) as well as Babesia. I can tell you first hand although treatment seems simple killing a spirochete bacteria is not an easy treatment, it triggers a Herxheimer reaction that can be for some extremely painful. But I am under the impression no new Live mediated vaccine with better coverage is yet available. See article below to explain.
http://spirochetesunwound.blogspot.com/2011/05/new-attenuated-leptospirosis-vaccine.html

Andrea, if you or your vet are aware of a better vaccine on the market I would love to have some info to take to my vet. Thanks in advance if you have any more current info on this vaccine, I know my vet would love to have it as well.
Therese