One other note about chest 'dropping' (and why did dog people start using that term - it sort of conjurs up visions of dog parts falling off in the yard) One the the biggest problems in basenjis fronts right now is those that are too narrow and have a concave area between the front legs. I'm NOT advocating a front like a bull terrier but there needs to be some 'fill' there to have a good front but it's not the fill it is the actual structure of the bones in the shoulder and upper arm that - if not correct- actally pull the 'front' too far forward. A quick visual scan from the side - if the deepest part of the brisket is well behind the legs - the front is too far forward. We need to pay attention to the actual shoulder structure to make sure we are not continuing to double up on dogs with a short upper arm. That limits front reach, and creates a not efficient side gait. So go catch your dogs and do a quick check - measure from the top of the wither to the point of shoulder (the most prominant bone in the chest.) then from that point to the point of the elbow. They should be the same. if they are not - stand up your dog and put your hand between the front legs - if you hand is IN FRONT OF THE FRONT LEGS - great - if your hand is between the front legs the front on your dog is too far foward.
More than you ever wanted to know probably - LOL
Tilly's Fanconi Test Results
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Thanks everyone. All of your comments have made us feel more positive about Tilly's future - also at WELKS today we were overwhelmed by all the people who came over to speak to us about it - i suppose as they say bad news travels fast - but everyone was very positive about it i.e its not the end of the world, and pleased that she had been tested - i am just astounded that testing your dog over here is not a matter of course…..
Tilly only got 2nd in postgrad today - she should have won! Anyway, really enjoyed the show, and have spoken to a lot of people with years more experience than us in Basenjis who have given us so much encouragement and advice.
As for Tilly - we got home at 9pm, my mum had left a lovely roaring log fire on for us - Tilly promptly chased all the dobes away from the fire and settled down in the prime spot nearest the heat - she knows shes special! Meanwhile me n john have just poured a little of the "amber nectar" to celebrate a very enjoyable weekend - basenji people aint all that bad.
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Thanks everyone. All of your comments have made us feel more positive about Tilly's future - also at WELKS today we were overwhelmed by all the people who came over to speak to us about it - i suppose as they say bad news travels fast - but everyone was very positive about it i.e its not the end of the world, and pleased that she had been tested - i am just astounded that testing your dog over here is not a matter of course…..
Tilly only got 2nd in postgrad today - she should have won! Anyway, really enjoyed the show, and have spoken to a lot of people with years more experience than us in Basenjis who have given us so much encouragement and advice.
As for Tilly - we got home at 9pm, my mum had left a lovely roaring log fire on for us - Tilly promptly chased all the dobes away from the fire and settled down in the prime spot nearest the heat - she knows shes special! Meanwhile me n john have just poured a little of the "amber nectar" to celebrate a very enjoyable weekend - basenji people aint all that bad.
Glad you enjoyed your day:D How nice to come home to a ready made fire:D
I wish also that more people would test but hey ho! I'm not familiar with the bitch that won your class
was she a brindle? I see Tilly's full sister had a good day winning BOB. -
hi Basi - the bitch who won the class was a red - but she was withdrawn from the challenge for some reason.
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hi Basi - the bitch who won the class was a red - but she was withdrawn from the challenge for some reason.
Hmm wonder what happened there then
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Just read about your results and would join the others in saying how sorry I am.
Personally I do not agree with carriers being used as they will only produce more carriers!
The argument is used that good breed points will be lost but they are often lost any way - no guarantee that they will be passed on! 'Ss' law says they won't!Tilly is a lovely bitch - yes you were right about the results at WELKS she should have been 1st in her class. I will be very interested to read the judge's critique. The bitch was withdrawn because she had been frightened.
Best wishes for future successes.
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Just read about your results and would join the others in saying how sorry I am.
Personally I do not agree with carriers being used as they will only produce more carriers!
The argument is used that good breed points will be lost but they are often lost any way - no guarantee that they will be passed on! 'Ss' law says they won't!Tilly is a lovely bitch - yes you were right about the results at WELKS she should have been 1st in her class. I will be very interested to read the judge's critique. The bitch was withdrawn because she had been frightened.
Best wishes for future successes.
A carrier bred to a clear will produce carriers AND clears…you could keep a clear and be done with carriers (by having them spayed or neutered) in one generation.
I can respect that you wouldn't want to use a carrier...but there is nothing wrong with breeders who do.
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Everytime we choose not to use a dog diversity is lost in our genepool. We lose so much already due to things like popular sire syndrome it would IMO be catastrophic to the breed to further reduce diversity by eliminating all carriers simply because they are carriers. There are far more issues in the breed than just Fanconi and all bottlenecking for one reason or another will only help to express other issues in the breed like a rise in PRA, HD, Hypothyroidism, or some other condition that may currently be quite rare. It is better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations.
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Even though I am not a breeder, I totally agree with using carriers and even male affecteds bred to a clear. I rescue Bs and have had only a few affecteds but I have quite a few with different eye diseases, probably all of them genetic. I worry about the other diseases that will occur more frequently when one limits the breeding diversity!
As long as the breeder keeps track of the carriers and do not allow them to breed to another carrier and/or affected then I see no problem. I do know accidents and things happen though.
Owning and taking care of an affected is not the worst thing that could happen. I own one and she is doing great at 10 1/2.
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And if you go to my website you all will see that I am planning a co-breeding this fall that will be Affected (via frozen since the male is deceased) to Clear… we thought long and hard about this... however, we are responsible and knowing that all will be carriers it is the breeders responsibility to make sure they know where all those pups are and what people are doing with them... same goes for any Carrier to Clear... some will be clear, some will be carriers.. it then becomes the breeders responsibility to make sure they know everything there is to know about the homes, the people, what is happening to those pups.... We are IMO, shooting ourselves in the foot to throw out Carriers and Affected males (especially ones that have been collected)... my personal opinion is I would never use an affected bitch, but to throw out these others is really to limit our already limited gene pool. We are doing this breeding because there is great temperament and the particular male has produced some very nice dogs, since he was used before 1. the Fanconi test and 2. Before he started spilling.... dogs that IMO we should not want to lose to the breed.... And the fact that Fanconi is a recessive gene, with responsible breeders we can eliminate over several generations.
And lvoss is so right... Fanconi is NOT the only problem our breed has... we need now as responsible breeder work towards elimination of those too.... Sometimes I just scratch my head seeing some breedings that the dogs are DNA for Fanconi and nothing else, yet you look at the pedigree and see Hip problems, eye problems, thyroid problems...etc.... and then people try and justify breeding those dogs regardless... to on top of that reduce the gene pool is just putting ourselves back to the HA days
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We are very lucky to have good breeders working to improve the health of our beloved breed.
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Dear All
Quercus,I totally agree that it is an individual thing - obviously breeders do have their own good reasons for using carriers, affecteds etc. and I'm certainly not saying they are wrong. - this is my personal opinion about not using carriers.
Tanza, I also agree that there is more to worry about than Fanconi which is not a very well researched syndrome in the UK. I strongly feel that the Basenji's kidney function needs research too but being a minority breed I know this will not come about.
I agree too that the gene pool is limited but interestingly when I asked Steve Gonto why he thought that we do not have a major Fanconi problem here (UK) he replied that it was because our gene pool was smaller!! Fortunately in the UK we do not have a lot of recognised problems but as I look at many of the dog's constructon I foresee some arising in the future.
Another problem we have here is that few suitable homes are available so that selling carriers of any disease could be difficult. I have kept all but one of my last litter because although there was, and is a good deal of interest I only found one person who was a suitable owner.
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Another problem we have here is that few suitable homes are available so that selling carriers of any disease could be difficult. I have kept all but one of my last litter because although there was, and is a good deal of interest I only found one person who was a suitable owner.
Just curious…are you talking about a suitable owner for a basenji in general or a suitable owner for a carrier.
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and I am very grateful to you for letting me have my wonderful little girl!!!
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Dear All
Quercus,I totally agree that it is an individual thing - obviously breeders do have their own good reasons for using carriers, affecteds etc. and I'm certainly not saying they are wrong. - this is my personal opinion about not using carriers.
Tanza, I also agree that there is more to worry about than Fanconi which is not a very well researched syndrome in the UK. I strongly feel that the Basenji's kidney function needs research too but being a minority breed I know this will not come about.
I agree too that the gene pool is limited but interestingly when I asked Steve Gonto why he thought that we do not have a major Fanconi problem here (UK) he replied that it was because our gene pool was smaller!! Fortunately in the UK we do not have a lot of recognised problems but as I look at many of the dog's constructon I foresee some arising in the future.
Another problem we have here is that few suitable homes are available so that selling carriers of any disease could be difficult. I have kept all but one of my last litter because although there was, and is a good deal of interest I only found one person who was a suitable owner.
I totally disagree with your statement about not having a major Fanconi problem…. I think that UK has just dodged the bullet for years. Look how many that were tested from Europe have come back as Carriers or Affected?... In my opinion it was just a short matter of time before Fanconi exploded in the UK... And I am not so sure that the gene pool is smaller in the UK, but more that there are less Basenjis in general. And have people really talked about Fanconi affected dogs. You know when I got in the breed, I heard over and over from people in Europe, Fanconi is not a problem, same from Aussie breeders.... until the test came out... and then all these dogs started showing up as Carriers and/or Affecteds.
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It would be interesting to know just how many dogs in the UK (of sufficient quality to be used at stud) have actually been tested as probably clear - I know of a few but so few people have actually tested their dogs how on earth can we make assumptions about how widespread Fanconi is in the UK?
Tilly's mother is of "british" bloodlines, and must be at least a carrier - so Fanconi is out there - its not just stemming from imported stock.
I dont wish to keep harking back to Dobermanns, but when Von Willebrands became a recognised issue back in the late 80's/early 90's, many uk breeders were convinced it all stemmed from a few US imports who sired affected pups - and totally denied that their lines could have anything to do with it. This of course was complete rubbish - british lines had to have the carriers there as well, and this proved to be the case as more people tested. No-one can be blamed for having these things crop up in their lines - thats life, things happen. But when a test becomes available (even if it is not a definitive test) then there is no excuse for not using whatever means available to help identify the status of breeding stock to ensure no Affecteds are produced.
To ignore carriers in a breeding programme would do a great disservice to the breed- especially in the UK where choices are limited to begin with.
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Im sorry to hear your Tilly has come back as affected
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On the OFA site you can sort pretty much any of the fields. So I would guess that UK registration numbers are unique, like AKC registration numbers? So you could sort the list and look that way, provided that people are using the correct registration numbers.
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renaultf1 - I mean Basenjis in general!
Tanza - I respect what you say. Re gene pool and major problem in the UK- I was only quoting Dr Gonto in reply to a question asked of him. I recall he said he'd advised on 11 over several years.
As Elscodobermann said, until every breeder tests we don't know of how many affected dogs we have here.
I'm not sure of present testing but some people did test before the latest Gary Johnston linked marker. I can only recall a few having been suspected of having developed Fanconi. Those that now have their dogs tested are open about it but on the whole people here are not. I queried with OFA how long a line could just breed carriers. I have only bred for approx 30 years but I have carried on the lines of a breeder who started in the very early 40s - I do know that Fanconi was not diagnosed in her lines nor in mine. Not to say there couldn't have been carriers but statistically, I would have thought that at some point the syndrome would have occurred, although I could be wrong!
I should also add that I am not totally qualified to comment because I have not had my dogs tested for the linked marker. As I had bred my last litter (and don't intend to breed again),when the test was made available here, it doesn't seem necessary. Of course if any one decides they want to use my dog I would have him tested first and also his parents.
However because I care desperately about the breed and have devoted my life to it, it is all is of great concern to me. When it is your own dog diagnosed probably affected I do know how tragic it must be and I feel so desperately sorry for any one who it happens to.
We do have other major problems of course, mainly constructional I think.
Incidentally it seems to me that a great percentage of breeders in the USA do test - am I correct? Probably in years to come it will be the same here. Unforunately our KC are not keen to recognise the linked marker test.
Elscodobermann - I've just looked through the WELKS catalogue and of 10 Breeders there, 5 definitely do test and 2 definitely don't - the other 3, I'm not sure whether they do but they might. It's perhaps not as bad as one might think. Incidentaly I think Tilly's mother's pedigree does include imported stock but I don't think that's got anything to do with it -after all Fanconi Syndrome arises from a mutant gene - when you go down that road it's non-productive!
Tanza -This subject seems to attract many opinions which does mean that people do care which must be good for the future of our beloveds. -
I totally agree that people do care about the breed and that is a good thing, the fact that we can and do discuss openly is what IMO, makes our breed head and shoulders above many others.
In the US, many, many breeders are testing.. however there are most likely just as many Back Yard breeders, Puppy Mills, and even people that call themselves responsible that are not testing.
I am curious, about you not testing yours? Don't you want to know that status, regardless if you are going to breed anymore or not?
I think that many breeders all over the world started testing due to peer pressure… and found out that they indeed had carriers and/or affecteds. Honestly that was one of the things that many of us hoped for, that through peer pressure people would have to test.
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I remember when I was new to the breed and had made a statement on an email list that Fanconi had been diagnosed in basenjis all over the world and having a breeder in a foreign country email me to tell me that there were no cases of Fanconi in her country, I was wrong and should learn to keep my mouth shut. Dr Gonto had people contact him from that country with cases, they were ostracized by other breeders in their country and if they made it public they were called liars. Even where the reaction was not as extreme as in that particular case, I do think that there has been something of a code of silence regarding Fanconi so it is hard to judge the incidence unless testing is being done.
