He could be a rat terrier mix; but he’s handsome!
Marley
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I think that when people first find us here they are usually in what I'll call the "honeymoon" phase, totally loving their new addition, thinking how could there be anything objectionable about my new B or any of the choices that led to he/she being part of my life…and it's a long shot for them to be open to thinking critically about the implications of that individual dog for the whole breed. For many of us every new member and their basenji carries a lot of significance to the big picture of basenji health, hence the curiosity right off the bat. I do think we do the breed a disservice when people get turned away SO quickly, because there is great potential for learning here. I know that so many of us get quite a bit of attention from people we pass when we're out with our B's (especially if you have a set of 4!). In those small interactions there are opportunities to educate even just a little bit. I worry that when people get bombarded upon arrival here and strangers get on their case for taking a test without studying/doing their homework, we lose people who months down the road may have recognized that perhaps they could have made a better choice in where to get their B but they are still in a position to make a positive difference. These are the people who may get stopped while out walking with their B's and will be seen in that moment as being knowledgable about the breed (in comparison to the person who has never seen a B before). I know that my experience being a member here absolutely informs what I tell someone when they ask about basenjis. I wish we could delay asking THE question until people get a sense for the forum and the "culture".....or that people read for a month before posting. At that point they may understand why their B's origin is so significant.
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Well put Mauigirl…. and I agree.... maybe there should be an "introduction" message to all new members with insights as about Basenjis, health, pedigree, responisble breeders, etc... maybe something like that would better prepare them for that "first" question, "where did you get your Basenjis or who did you get your Basenji from?"
And as noted before by others, many times we have things, dogs in common with new members, so we ask... just like with Sharla, who posted about her Match Win.. and I asked if she bred the litter, etc... only to find out that she bred to a sire that comes from the same breeder that we will be using for our girl this year for breeding.
And really, note that our next responses are typically about DNA testing for Fanconi, because it is important.
I think the one thing, however that "really" jerks our chains is irresponsible breeding... and our "hackles" really go up....
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I agree with Mauigirl. I am a b owner who did a lot of research into breed behavioral traits, health and etc before I decided on getting Beegin. However, I had never purchased a purebred dog before, as all the ones in the past had been rescues, so I wasn't aware of what it takes to make a responsible breeder. I was aware of puppy mills from tv and new about not buying from pet stores but I had no idea of breeder -vs- backyard breeder. When I figured out that Beegin's breeder was a BYB, I felt really awful and irresponsible myself.
Everything that I thought were good things the breeder told me were "classic" backyard breeder attributes like "both parents on site", "breeding only as a hobby and not for money", "no signs of Fanconi" etc. Although I wasn't privately contacted by anyone from this forum, (which could make a difference in this person's case I suppose), the flurry of postings about pedigree, fanconi testing and etc were somewhat intimidating. No one was overly critical of me however so I suspect that Will was just overly sensitive in this case. Various alternative meanings and connotations can be takend from the written word that one never intended.
I don't know that you all should worry too much about changing your tactics as they are all well-meaning, but at least considering the outsider perspective might help newbies feel less intimidated.
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We all start somewhere when it comes to b's.
Some are lucky or informed and get their b's from good breeders, some fall in love with the "puppy" in the window and then find out, wow…what do I have here??.
Its really not meant as a slam, just information...important information that if someone does have a b from an area other than a responsible breeder, the owner needs to know.
We all start somewhere and having to learn you beloved puppy can have health issues is pretty scary.
So, hopefully, everyone who is scared will stick with this forum and learn.
Knowledge is power and you can find a lot of that here. -
I think that often times the people who become the most defensive and get the most upset are the ones who had some idea at the time that they made the decision to get their pup that the breeder probably wasn't the best place to get a pup from. People who didn't know about the red flags and are honestly suprised usually don't have the reaction that people are attacking them, though they can be a little overwhelmed by the amount of information. The people who ignored red flags and got the puppy anyway, usually see any mention of those red flags as an attack even if they are mentioned in a information only way.
I find Will_s' reaction to this thread interesting because no where in this thread or in the email posted to this thread did anyone doubt that Marley is a purebred basenji and yet that is what he accuses everyone here of being intolerant of.
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Hm, maybe it also could be because he felt a little "overrolled" with that? I have been looking at a lot of introduction threads now, and I have seen it in almost every threat now, that the first comments on the b's always are the questions where they come from and about their health issues. Maybe this is something that withdraws the people from here. I can understand that they feel critizized if they bought their dog in a pet store. But as long as this is leagal in your country you cannot stop the people to do so. Maybe they feel insulted if they have to tell you, that the breeder was not a bcoa member or might be a byb. Maybe we should try to have the people tell us about their B them selves and maybe we should carefully drop one question or one hint by another, not all together with the same questions. I could imagine, that this sets a person under pressure and they feel as if they have to defend them selfes, which is not a comfortable position to a new member of any forum.
Hope you can understand my thoughts, allthough I think my English is not that expressive as it should be…. sorry for that.
Regards,
Esther -
A lot of comments have been made on being a BCOA member. I'm sorry, a lot of comments are hinging on being 'correct'. I have just recently became a BCOA member. Does that mean I'm a BYB? In addition I will not charge a lot of money for my pups simply, as Andrea stated in another thread, because my costs are not high here. I, personally have felt affronted by this. I'm not a BYB, but I am a member of the CKC, BCOC, CARO and a few other small groups. So, I have felt, at times, as others have I'm sure, that I was being pressured to conform to the lines of the other breeders. If I have felt this being a longer member, I have to ask what the new members think? Remember to put yourselves in their shoes. Information is great, but when they are inundated the first time they introduce themselves, a lot of them are put off. Just my thoughts on the subject.
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I don't think that there has ever been a big emphasis on the breeders being members of BCOA, it is mentioned sometimes but not as an emphasis. And any emphasis on BCOA versus other national breed clubs is a result of this being primarily a United States based forum though we have an international membership. The big emphasis has always been the health of the dogs. Which is why one of the first things that people mention is "were the parents tested for Fanconi, if not please check out the OFA and CPP websites to order a test." As far as the "where did you get your pup?" question, many are honestly curious because the basenji world is really not that big. Even when dogs are from other countries, some of us have relatives because our dogs have an international background
Maybe the best thing to do is modify the sticky for this Topic and add
The health of all basenjis is of great concern to our membership and many may ask out of concern if your basenji has been tested for Fanconi Syndrome, http://www.basenji.org/PUBLIC/HealthInfo.htm. If your basenji has not been tested using the DNA Marker Test for Fanconi, please order a kit from OFA, https://secure.offa.org/cart.html and register with the Canine Phenome Project, http://www.caninephenome.org/ for the test.
The basenji world is a small world and many on this forum are interested in finding out if they are talking to the owner of relative of their dog. Curiousity often overwhelms them and they are compelled to ask where your dog came from. Even if your dog is not related to anyone on the forum, sometimes just hearing how you came to have your basenji creates connnections with members of the forum.
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Hm, maybe it also could be because he felt a little "overrolled" with that? I have been looking at a lot of introduction threads now, and I have seen it in almost every threat now, that the first comments on the b's always are the questions where they come from and about their health issues. Maybe this is something that withdraws the people from here. I can understand that they feel critizized if they bought their dog in a pet store. But as long as this is leagal in your country you cannot stop the people to do so. Maybe they feel insulted if they have to tell you, that the breeder was not a bcoa member or might be a byb. Maybe we should try to have the people tell us about their B them selves and maybe we should carefully drop one question or one hint by another, not all together with the same questions. I could imagine, that this sets a person under pressure and they feel as if they have to defend them selfes, which is not a comfortable position to a new member of any forum.
Hope you can understand my thoughts, allthough I think my English is not that expressive as it should be…. sorry for that.
Regards,
EstherI think your English is just fine.
And I agree – perhaps it would be best to NOT immediately ask new members about the health testing, etc. But to let that come out over the course of a few weeks/months. I mean, if your dog's parents were not OFA'd there will be no immediate health concern for your dog, so it should be able to wait a while into the conversations.
As for Fanconi, there may be a more pressing need to get the word out, but again perhaps not in the first few posts.I can see where excited new members, just getting the hang of being on the forum, or adjusting to being new B-owners, etc. may feel a bit overwhelmed by the questions and even the information if it comes at them too quickly.
Think of it.. if you meet someone on the street who has a Basenji, I could see asking "Oh! Where'd you get him?" in terms of trying to see if you know the breeder or share a connection. But would you really say, "Oh! You have a Basenji! Me too! Has yours been OFA'd? Were the parents tested for Fanconi?" I'm not sure that would be the first conversation.
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see, this is exactely what I'd tried to express. It feels kind of like: hi, please give me your bank details, I'm just interested….
Maybe it also depends on, how the people introduce themselves, if they are not experienced with forums the introduction might be a bit short or not so informative. I have been checking my own introduction (http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=3816) and I have not felt under pressure. Maybe, because I do come from another continent and it might not be sooo interesting for many people, or because I introduced my dogs with their Kennel Names and gave you the link to my own website, where all the really important informations could be found.
I don't know. But I guess this forum has lost enough people now, which have felt overwhealmed with some questions. Don't you agree?
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I don't know. But I guess this forum has lost enough people now, which have felt overwhealmed with some questions. Don't you agree?
I fully agree with that..
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If you have gotten a rescue, then I think it is important right off the top to know/be told about Fanconi testing… as BRAT doesn't even tell people about the DNA test, only that they should strip test monthly. And how many people do you know that "do not" do this... I know a lot... it slips their minds, dog seems healthy, why bother... he/she was not spilling last month, I can skip a few months....
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Maybe it would be a good idea, if BRAT would tell the people about the possibility to have a DNA Test. But that they as a organization do not have the financial possibilities to do it.
But as a forum, we should do something, that the people feel more comfortable in their role as a new member.
To have a sticky health introduction thing in the new member section is a good idea.
Regards,
Esther -
If you have gotten a rescue, then I think it is important right off the top to know/be told about Fanconi testing… as BRAT doesn't even tell people about the DNA test, only that they should strip test monthly. And how many people do you know that "do not" do this... I know a lot... it slips their minds, dog seems healthy, why bother... he/she was not spilling last month, I can skip a few months....
While I agree with the importance of the Fanconi information and I so appreciate the passion, I can't help but wonder, based on the frequent reactions of new members, if it couldn't just hold off a few posts…..?
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I second these thoughts of perhaps a pinch of over zealousness. Don't get me wrong, man I WISH we had ppl who were up front enough to talk about the importance of texting/breeding with our first Basenji. It would have prevented a lot of heartache. However, despite good intentions I think the questions straight from the "intro" forum could rub off abrasively. Humans, being the emotional creatures that we are - tend to interpret that as there is something wrong with the beloved companion rather then accepting it's advice from concerned Basenji owners trying to look out for the welfare of the dog. I overwhelmingly agree that there should be a sticky made for the topic - I'm sure the members can help write it - along with a flag that says "Read BEFORE you Join!" so that ppl are not affronted however innocent the questions are. It's a dicey subject matter, but I absolutely think it needs to be addressed. I mean, what good dog owner wouldn't want the absolute best for their companion?
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So how many posts do you wait, 5, 10, 20? I don't think that it is a number of posts issue. Everytime this comes up I go and read the introduction threads. The majority of the posts are "Welcome, post pictures please." "How cute" "Hey, great to see another _________ here". Then there is the sprinkling of "Who'd you get your dog from?" and "Were the parents tested for Fanconi?" They are not the majority of the posts, they are frequently several posts down the thread.
I know I have said this before but asking where your dog came from is more like being asked "Are you Joe's kid?" at a family reunion than it is like being asked "Tell me your bank account."
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I mentioned this before, but you can not expect every person that comes here will feel the warm and fuzzies we did. You all have valid points but I don't think anyone is doing anything wrong. A sticky would be fine, but would they read it? If they didn't take the time to research the dog breeder why would they take the time to research a forum?
Besides the only people that get upset are the ones who did not get their dog from a reputable breeder. Like myself, I got the same questions. I came here to learn and talk about my love of this breed. Some people are just overly sensative.
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I wouldn't say that anyone had done something "wrong", it's just ….
because it has been noted that there are those who do get defensive and sometimes leave the forum, perhaps it would be of greater benefit to slowly introduce the topics so as not to offend.
It seems that there is lesser benefit to the breed as well as to the individual dogs when those people stomp off in a huff, NOT really hearing the information, not being moved to do the testing, not being dissuaded from breeding inappropriately.Not that the statements are in and of themselves offense, but we all know that tone cannot be conveyed well in written word, and there have been several who have misinterpreted the good intent.
I TOTALLY agree that the info SHOULD...MUST... be gotten out there. Maybe for some it's just too much too soon.
The family reunion analogy works for us, because we "get" it. But sometimes the "Who's the breeder? Were tests done?" approach may feel more like a "Are you Joe's kid? I'm not sure he should have had children" to some.
Maybe those people get defensive because somewhere in side they DO feel "guilty" for having purchased their dog from a less-than-desirable source, or maybe it's because they feel their beloved pup has been insulted, or maybe they didn't know and now feel "stupid". Either way, it seems more important -- IMO-- to risk waiting a week or two on info and getting those folks to stick around than to risk losing them completely and NEVER getting them to come around.
And really the info IS there and they may well find it sooner than later as they bop around the forum.
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I am sure that we have many, many "lurkers" on this forum that have never posted, but are considering or have purchased and/or rescued a Basenji… and while we might turn off some people for whatever reason... I have to believe that we are reaching others... and we have had people on this forum that have "taken" immediate offense to questions about "where did you get you B" or "do you know or have they been DNA tested for Fanconi?"... and have maybe left the forum or not... For the majority... even the ones that may have left in a huff.... I would venture to guess that now lurk... and maybe have done some research and will at least get some testing done. And maybe for the few that are looking, they will research a little more before buying....
And again I point out... many times the questions are to make a connection... just like I did with the person that bred to one of the FoPaw dogs...
I don't think any of us have said "give that puppy back"... we may have said that they didn't get their pup from a responsible breeder and now you just need to love your pup and do some testing... we have only said that the owners need to test for their own peace of mind... -
"Where'd you get your basenji?" is in and of itself a neutral question with no positive or negative connotation as written. If someone is taking offense to that question then they are bringing their own bias to the conversation. I would rather ask it sooner than later because really, how are we going to make connections with people if we are afraid someone might storm off in huff any time we try to converse with them about the main topic of this forum? How many times can you read or type, "Welcome", "Thanks", "Glad to see you here", "Great to be here"? If you are joining a forum about Basenjis it seems a no brainer that people are going to ask you about your basenji.
