@donc - Not true that breeders traditionally breed for conformation only. Breeders (responsible breeders) breed for health, temperament and conformation. Health/temperament is at the top of the list. Breeders do of course look for certain conformation but that does not exclude Health & Temperament.
How can I save cost? (Rescued Pups)
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Please, rather than breeding these dogs who are undersocialized, terrified, and overall have been through enough in their short lifetimes, instead, look into spay/neutering them and fostering them with the support of a rescue organization that can help with vet care. There are too many homeless dogs as it is, no dog will ever be able to "pay its way" or even come close to defraying the costs to care for them.
Rescue organizations like Basenji Rescue and Transport (BRAT) can help foster homes pay for vet care like spay/neuter, routine vaccinations, etc and also have access to large applicant pools to find dogs good forever homes.
If you can not find the money to pay for routine vaccinations the health testing that needs to be done prior to even considering breeding will far exceed that amount.
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I totally agree with lvoss… this is not the type of Basenji or any breed that should be bred.. under any conditions. They would be better served by spay/neuter them and working to try and socialize them for placement in loving homes... there are people out there that are and can spend the time needed to help...
As lvoss said, contact BRAT... and see if they can help with the costs... and help find forever homes.... please do not continue the problem by breeding Basenijis that should not be bred...
Are any of these AKC registered? -
What testing are you referring to? DNA Marker Testing for Fanconi Syndrome? OFA Thyroid Panel? CERF exam for eyes? OFA x-rays for Hip Dysplasia? These are the minimum recommended health tests for basenjis.
Doing the right health testing takes time and a good deal more money than routine vaccinations, heartworm preventative, and routine vet costs.
What health testing have you done on Nitro? What is Nitro's registered name? I don't see any health testing in the OFA database for any living basenji with Nitro in their regsitered name.
Do you know his DNA status with regards to Fanconi Syndrome?
What will the litters you produce offer the breed? Will you take back every puppy you produce for its life, for any reason, no questions asked? Please visit the BRAT website and see how many basenjis, several from situations just like your 7, need homes, http://www.basenjirescue.org
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Nitro is his family name. We purchased him with "all" the testing done and a lifetime guarantee. We plan to offer the same and do followups to ensure their quality of life.
Agreed that testing takes money, that is why we want to cut cost in other areas where possible. (even small amounts like wormers and shots)
We are simply wanting to make connections with other Basenji breeders and get best practices.
I can tell you passion for the breed with all the questions. Thanks for your input. -
If you aren't willing to go to BRAT for help, consider local organizations for help. There are several in my area (Atlanta, GA) that I have taken stray cats to that offer reduced cost spay/neuter as well as reduced cost vaccines/wormer/flea medicine/heart worm preventative. Just a quick Google on "reduced cost spay/neuter Missouri" yielded several links to places that could help you. http://www.franklincountyhumanesociety.org/main.asp?id=13
http://www.metroanimal.org/directory/spay_and_neuter_services.shtml
Not a breeder, but one day hope to be. From all I have read on this forum, I advise you to please please listen to the likes of Tanza & Ivoss and get these kiddies fixed. No insult whatsoever meant, but it seems to me you're not even aware of the "testing" they are talking about. The basenji breed has some breed specific issues that should be checked out before you breed, and it is not recommended you breed animals until they are a bit older, so if any problems show up a bit later in life, you will know you have not passed them on to several litters of pups. At the bare minimum, do tons of research, ask lots of questions here, do all the tests, and wait a couple of years.
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If Nitro was sold to you as a puppy then there is no way that he came with all the health tests neccessary for his lifetime or to determine if he has any inherited disorders.
Hips can not be certified until the dog is 2 years old, http://www.offa.org/hipinfo.html
Thyroid panels will need repeated through the life of the dog, http://www.offa.org/thyinfo.html
CERF eye exams need to be done yearly, http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html
The Fanconi Marker Test is the only test of the four I mentioned that can be done as a puppy, http://www.basenjihealth.org/linkage-faq.html
All of these tests can be verified through the OFA database, http://www.offa.org
With the exception of the Fanconi test, in order to make any good assessment of risk of producing the disease a breeder needs pedigree information on these health tests not just the dog's status. Many well known producers of Hip Dysplasia in the breed were themselves Good but had siblings, aunts, uncles that were Fairs, or worse.
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Can I ask this of you….
What about the dogs and bitches that you have right now is of importance to the breed? Meaning what do they have to offer the breed that needs to be kept in the bloodlines. This is a vital question to be able to answer.
IMHO any breeder that is a responsible breeder should NEVER breed just to get a litter out. There has to be good reason for the breeding, and that good reason can only come from a focus on the dogs, not on yourselfs or on pocketbooks. I have to admit that it scares me a little to hear you even asking about cutting costs. That (to myself) is a red flag when dealing with breeders, and would at least disuade me from looking into your kennel much further (Just something to keep in mind).
Also a Second question, can you objectivly tell us what some of the drawbacks to any of your pups being bred is. Again IMO a good responsible breeder can not only give the positive points of a pedigree, but can also objectivly describe any concerns in the bloodline.
I ask you these things so that you can consider what kind of breeder you want to be.
Breeding just because you love your dogs and love puppies = Red Flag
Breeding to enhance the bloodlines and maintain the important traits and behaviors of a breed = I would look further into your kennel
You will find people who are willing to buy puppies from you no matter what kind of breeder you are, BUT....Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.
Just some food for thought.
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Nitro is his family name. We purchased him with "all" the testing done and a lifetime guarantee. We plan to offer the same and do followups to ensure their quality of life.
Agreed that testing takes money, that is why we want to cut cost in other areas where possible. (even small amounts like wormers and shots)
We are simply wanting to make connections with other Basenji breeders and get best practices.
I can tell you passion for the breed with all the questions. Thanks for your input.Is he listed in the OFA data base? for DNA Fanconi testing? What "all" testing is done? Does that mean his parents were tested for Fanconi, hips, elbows, eyes, thyroid, to name a few and we can find (or potential buyers) can find that on the OFA website? Is he AKC registered? Or one of the "pretend" registrations that were started by PuppyMills and Pure for Profit BYB breeders.
Have you asked the question, what does this dog (and bitch) have to offer the breed? Are they of sound pedigree, temperament, health? If the bitches came from a puppymill, then there is no way you would have that information especially about temperament. Do you have a waiting list for puppy buyers? Have you screened them? Will your contract require spay/neuter so that someone else doesn't just "breed" because they can and might make money selling puppies?
I would also have to remark, if you need to think about cutting corners and/or costs, then you should not be breeding….
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In the process we are planning to breed a couple of them (after testing) to help fund their advancements.
I am looking for ideas on how to save on vet cost.While I highly commend you for saving the dogs from a kill shelter, having puppies is going to put you further in the hole, not recoup your expenses. Assuming you wish to become a responsible breeder and not just "make puppies", the health testing (hips, eyes, thyroid, fanconi, and brucellosis) for each animal you will be breeding will be several hundred dollars each. Assuming you choose to breed one male to two females, you are looking at $1,500 or more before they are bred. Assuming there are no complications during pregnancy and delivery, you will have the further expenses of dewclaw removal, vaccinations, worming, physical exams by the vet, food, advertising, cost of registering pups, and something most people never think of, paper towels, mops, disinfectant, etc for cleaning up after the "poop machines". Expenses add up fast and with the economy as it is now, be prepared to keep pups for several months because they just have not been selling well.
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Thank you Yodeldog for you comment.. others on here have not been so graceful nor supportive. I get the impression that they don't want others creeping in on their sales. = Red flag for me. I found that Basenji breeders (in general) tend to be a little clickish and bad mouth each other. Especially when it comes to incorporating African blood lines. (which again you don’t know what they have to offer the breed either.. so you guys can fight among yourselves with that one) I've had many phone conversations with Basenji breeders. For the record: Just because I use a generic "all" does not mean that I am not aware of what testing need to be done and when. (to me that is just the basics and common sense of a responsible person) Plus I did not want to be miss quote and have it used against me.. It feels like I’ve entered the race for Pres of the US.
Also, maybe it was a poor choice of words to state I was trying to find cost savings. I simply wanted to know what others use and find effective. (aka doing their own injections)
While some temperaments could be signs of hereditary issues, I feel that most of the time it has to do with poor socialization and ownership. (oh wait.. am I talking about the breed or those leaving comments) Just because you breed bitches.. you don’t have to be one.
It is unfortunate that many people are to focused on being righteous with asking what can you bring for the breed. I feel this is personally subjective and there are basic characteristics listed with AKC. (ie color, markings, build to name a few.. note: I know the list goes on) I only wish those humans breeding would have asked their selves the same question before producing. Maybe we would have more positive people in the world who are out to help others.
I had really hoped to find a supportive group to help advise of issues and make recommendation. Not to be attacked by.
I have requested for my membership on this to be terminated and my posting removed.
At this point we are still considering breeding, depending on the completion of our nursery area. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. A new person comes in for advise and gets the 3rd degree. If you want to know information there are better ways to ask than attacking. Next time try asking… if someone knows about “all” the test and when needed or saying .. yes basenji's are a wonderful breed, why have you chosen them. This is why I am not supplying any additional information. I will not be responding any further to your comments. I was a member for one day ….. that should tell you something about how you welcome new members.Good luck and Goodbye
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I am sorry to hear that you feel attacked here.
For the record I am not now nor have I ever been a breeder ( I simply do not have the time/finances/knowhow to be a good one).
Please keep in mind that it can be very dificult to read emotion into a post online. The questions that you are being asked by people here are not meant to demean you or state that you are not capable of being a responsible breeder. I think that everyone is just trying to get a feel for what exactly you want out of the breed.
People on this site are very passionate about the breed and simply want what's best for Basenjis as a whole. If you are interested in breeding to help this breed you will find a huge amount of information on this site, as well as a tremendous amount of knowledge from people who are, and have been breeding in order to truly maintain these dogs and heal some of the genetic wounds of the past.
Everything that I have said in this and my previous post to you only comes from my own opinions, and should be taken as such. We all vary in how we view our world, and sometimes that can cause friction. Hopefully you will choose to stay on the forums and use the knowledge presented here to become the best breeder you can.
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May I just remind everyone that the purpose of this forum is to provide a place for Basenji owners to make connections, exchange information, assist and encourage one another. It is above all a friendly environment for online discussion.
Webedoggies joined our forum expecting to find information and advice on breeding basenjis and what this user found is very passionate individuals sharing their experiences and advice about this wonderful breed.
We are not a breeding forum, and probably not the best place to seek this type of advice.
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IMO the reaction to new folks introducing themselves is often a bit strident here. There's a tendency I find unfortunate, of plunging immediately into an interrogation on where the dog came from, whether testing has been done, etc, even before folks get their feet wet (oh, wait, basenjis hate wet feet!). In the case of a neutered or spayed pet, I frequently feel it's unnecessarily challenging to newcomers looking for support.
That being said, this OP jumped in with budget breeding questions for apparently unsocialized, likely undocumented basenjis. I'm a rescue fan, but not for the this apparent "out of the frying pan…" motive.
I think the response took a more civilized tone than it might have. -
If I can put my two cents in here … members on this forum come from a wide variety of backgrounds from just plain "dog lovers" to serious breeders. For a first time visitor, some responses can seem a bit "clickish", "bitchy", "righteous". I truly believe nearly everyone here (if not all) is concerned for the breed and concerned for dogs in geneeral and have seen or read what happens to dogs that are bred strictly for monetary purposes (aka puppy mills). As a result some folks here are quite strident about trying to be responsible breeders and owners. Written discussions never provide the facial expressions that help alert the reader to the true intentions of the speaker that the words alone don't convey and sometimes words aren't chosen carefully enough. I hope Webedoggies might consider rejoining the forum with this in mind and that all visitors would "hang around longer" to see our true intentions and concerns about the breed (just look at our gallery and you'll see that we truly love our dogs).
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IMO the reaction to new folks introducing themselves is often a bit strident here. There's a tendency I find unfortunate, of plunging immediately into an interrogation on where the dog came from, whether testing has been done, etc, even before folks get their feet wet (oh, wait, basenjis hate wet feet!). In the case of a neutered or spayed pet, I frequently feel it's unnecessarily challenging to newcomers looking for support.
A very good post and I fully agree with you.
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Thank you Yodeldog for you comment.. others on here have not been so graceful nor supportive.
For the record, I was not being supportive to the breeding of the dogs in question but rather being honest about the expenses involved in rearing a litter of puppies.
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You know I have to say…. I appreciate the hardline approach that is offered on the forums. My skin starts to crawl when I see a people sloppily post for breeding advice, when it's obvious that they have not invested much of themselves to the endeavor they are about to commit to. To be sure, they haven't studied in depth the various health issues of the Basenji, or the complicated genetic matters that go into producing puppies worthy of carrying on the breed standard. From my standpoint, one shouldn't ever ask "how can I frugally pop out a litter"...if that is the financial situation, then they have no business breeding whatsoever. If the desire is there to produce the pups then so the wallet should be too. So I say burn baby burn, if that's what is necessary for people to get the point. My first Basenji was bred by people who just wanted to breed a litter for some extra cash. I have seen their ignorance soil the life of my dog, who can not under any circumstances come into contact with other dogs because she attacks them, who bites people out of fear when they come to pet her for the first time. The countless hours and dollars we poured into her as a puppy to socialize her and strengthen her self confidence with people. The numerous times we wondered if it was more humane to put her down. Thankfully, over time we worked out a system, in which our whole family was able to co-exist. Now she is 15, and very much the leisurely couch potato - with a few good runs at the cats that cross my parent's yard. I love my dog - but she is the inbred product of a litter that should have never been whelped. I was only 9 when this all happened, but if my parents had the forum to be better informed, they would have used the knowledge.
I think we are so fortunate to have been touched by the Basenji, not many people feel the same joy at seeing their toliet paper shredded on their floor - or the elation of having your B come when called (yeah!!) I love my 2 girls very much, though they live on opposites sides of the globe.
And I'm so so grateful to the breeders who commit themselves to the rigorous and perhaps unsung task of preserving a breed that has enriched a select few for thousands of years. We should be here to make the Basenji stronger (and YES to opening African studbooks for a broader genetic base!) we should be supportive of people who want ensure that the puppies received by new owners are as amazing and slightly crazy (hehe) as the dogs we love and cherish. If that requires a stronger offense then I back it wholeheartedly. -
Asking where someone got their dog is not "interrogating", it isn't hostile, or in any way nefarious. Most people on this list ask because they are genuinely curious. The basenji community is relatively small and many of us on this forum have found that we have basenji "family" here. How do we know, because we ASKED.
It is true if the response is that their dog was from a BYB, petstore, or a rescue that often the next statement is a plug for the Fanconi test. Again, this advice isn't done out of hostility, it is done out of genuine concern.
I went through the posts at the beginning of this thread, several of the posts were mine, which even re-reading I do not think were out of line and what did I get for my statements, I basically got called a bitch. Luckily, I don't take too much offense because I am in good company both in looking at the other humans who got grouped with me and that in my fairly biased opinion I am living with 4 very nice examples of bitches who actually are quite sweet though not unwilling to honestly express their opinions.
I think that many people who respond the way this poster did, do so because they are looking for someone to validate what they are about to do. They are then angry when they do not get the response they expected. That does not mean that the responses that were given were out of line, hostile, or even unwelcoming.
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I agree with lvoss, of course I am one that typically gets called out for being a "bitch"…. and that is just because people don't want to be challenged and want someone/everyone to validate what they are going to do. They don't want to hear that their pup came from a pure for profit breeder that does no health testing when we bring up the DNA Fanconi test that should/needs to be done, but as lvoss says it is out of concern. If anyone on this forum thinks that we are trying to plug to sell our own pups, there is nothing further from the truth. We care about the breed, breeding healthly, good temperament pups, that are socialized and make excellent family companions that can also hold their own in the show ring and/or on the performance arena......
