AKC National Championship today

[eeeefarm]

@zande said in AKC National Championship today:

@JENGOSMonkey Good Bye M'Lady was actually about 6 different dogs, all with slightly different markings, provided I always understood, by John Crice Rich.

But I agree, a good tri can be stunning.

If we are referencing the movie, "Goodbye My Lady", then the dog, My Lady of the Congo, was provided by Veronica Tudor-Williams, who also provided 4 others as doubles, including Lady's littermate, My Lord of the Congo. Or is there some other movie out there that I don't know about?

Some fascinating history here about "of the Congo" dogs, including Lady....

[Zande]

@eeeefarm Veronica didn't provide the dogs, John did !

I assume @JENGOSMonkey meant the movie Goodbye My Lady but can't see to type on my phone !

[eeeefarm]

@zande said in AKC National Championship today:

@eeeefarm Veronica didn't provide the dogs, John did !

I assume @JENGOSMonkey meant the movie Goodbye My Lady but can't see to type on my phone !

I can't find anything about John, but I assume he was the middleman in this? My reason for thinking it was Veronica can be found here .

[Zande]

@eeeefarm Your links don't lead anywhere -

[eeeefarm]

@zande said in AKC National Championship today:

@eeeefarm Your links don't lead anywhere -

They lead to .pdf files, which may not display in your browser but should download to display in whatever app you have that opens them. I can quote from the one that is titled "The inside story of Goodbye, My Lady by Veronica Tudor-Williams"

" their problem was the great difficulty in finding the ideal Basenji to fill the title role of the film. Finally, through the kindness of Marlise, Basenji breeders in Massachusetts, a long distance call was put through from Hollywood, California, to Molesey, England (at 2 a.m. English time) and it was arranged that my best six month-old bitch puppy, subsequently registered as my Lady of the Congo, should be supplied........My Lady was duly flown to Hollywood, to Warner Bros. Studios, and was received with unstinted praise. Then another 2 a.m. call was made to Molesey, asking for four doubles for My Lady. No suitable bitch puppies were available, so the situation was explained and four dog puppies were offered as the only alternative. They did not seem very suitable as a double for a lady, but it seemed to present no difficulties, so four young dogs were flown out to join My Lady, including her litter brother, My Lord of the Congo."

[Zande]

@eeeefarm Oh that - yes, I've read that too. (but no, clicking on the links at my end didn't take me anywhere). I have always heard that, even if Story Book Basenjis were not actually used, they were dogs from USA, provided by John Crice Rich.

Looking through the Breed Record Supplements, there isn't a record of VTW sending four at once. And in another piece of her writing, she gives a graphic account of taking two Basenjis to the premier of the movie. I have it somewhere - she names the two dogs but I forget off-hand who they were.

My Lady otC, bred by Mr E.A. Collis, was granted an export pedigree in 1957. This was typical of VTW. She would buy in whole litters and put her affix on them. My own Lovebird of the Congo (Lady), my foundation bitch purchased from VTW, was actually bred by S.F. Guest.

The BRS - of which I have a complete series going back to 1938 - is a fascinating history of Basenji movements. For example, VTW always claimed never to have exported a Basenji to USA but that it had a 3 generation certified pedigree. But BRS shows at least 11 went to America with only 2 generation pedigrees.

Kito is curled up on my feet. He was hoping to come on my lap as he did yesterday afternoon while I worked on the database but he wasn't much of a help. It's bad enough having to type one-eyed without a puppy trying to play on the keyboard.

[JENGOSMonkey]

The article about Good Bye M'Lady was great. As well as the other. I don't know... that movie just really resonates with me. I'd love it even if it wasn't a Basenji.

Back to the AKC show... I was really happy to see a Tri in the mix. Like I said, I never really paid much attention to them until recently. Never paid much attention to Brindles or Trindles till I started coming here all the time. Zaki got me hooked on Brindles.

Thinking out loud... I'd made a comment months back regarding the Basenji standard and who came up with it. Not as an accusatory question, but more for trying to understand how we got here. When I look at pictures of Basenjis that are in the Congo... they look feral. The colors, the ears, the size, all of it is all over the map. I kinda dig that. Then, when I look at ours, at least in the US, I can see that show dogs have a lot in common, if not color.

One thing that helped me understand how we got here was a YouTube Video that featured Carol Web. I learned of her from my breeder. Carol did a great job of explaining the how and why Basenji breeders have taken the breed in the direction they have. And, I agree with that direction.

When I look at the colors... Chestnut (red and white), Black and White, Tri, Brindle and Trindle... the color combos at first glance seem very uniform, but the more I've looked at them the more I'm able to find the differences between individuals, which is really fun. There are some things I personally like... like breaks in color, spots and things like that. I've developed a much greater appreciation for head and body shape too thanks to knowledgeable people helping me to see them.

Our Basenjis are not the same as the Basenjis in the Congo anymore. Ours have become Basenjis that work for us temperament wise, and are bred keeping in mind how we live and interact with them as Carol pointed out in the video. I get that now. Add health testing and caution against too much interbreeding and... I think it works for our Basenjis. I've leaned so much from my breeder and from folks here.

As an owner the question I hear most is "What kind of dog is that?" No one knows what a Basenji is, or they might have have heard the name, but have never seen one in person. They seem to universally love the way they look, but don't know much. That was me even when Jengo was alive. I wonder if people even consider that there are other color patterns other than Chestnut? I really didn't. Seeing Dark Moon's Black Tri Affair in a National AKC show sure helps that, I think.

One last thing... I went back to @Zande's site and looked up Sparkle, our female. Her mom was a gorgeous Tri. I also found a Brindle and a Black and White in her line as well. Pretty cool!

[Zande]

I am not sure that I agree that humans are taking the Basenji in the right direction @JENGOSMonkey.

Heads for example. Basenjis are becoming longer in the foreface with pointed noses, no cushion and very little side wrinkle. Judging around the place - Russia, Australia, Scandinavia, Estonia, Germany, Czech Republic to name some, I have often surprised myself by putting up brindles although not caring for the colour.

When I did the German specialty, my BIS was a brindle from Norway and BOS a brindle from the Czech Republic. They had proper, if you like, old fashioned, Basenji heads (and apart from that, also true Basenji gait !) and I finally figured it out. . . .

Humans had had fewer generations to muck about with the natives brought back from Africa and so they retained much of what now we are losing. Sadly from brindles too.

btw @JENGOSMonkey , if you message me your email address I will send you some pieces you might be interested in.

I am getting my Covid jab tomorrow and the second eye (at my own expense but I have no choice. Insurance won't pay at a different hospital) on Friday. So don't expect anything too soon !

[eeeefarm]

@zande said in AKC National Championship today:

They had proper, if you like, old fashioned, Basenji heads (and apart from that, also true Basenji gait !) and I finally figured it out. . . .

Humans had had fewer generations to muck about with the natives brought back from Africa and so they retained much of what now we are losing.

Unfortunately once you start breeding to remove certain traits and accentuate others, you often end up losing something desirable or introducing unforeseen problems. Anyone who has dabbled in computer programming knows that a little seemingly innocuous tweak can cause unexpected results, and it is the same when you mess with genetics. The Russian Fox experiments are an extreme example. Breeding for better temperaments caused physical changes in the foxes.

There are valid reasons why sheepdog people did not want Border Collies to be recognized for show by the AKC and CKC. These dogs were always bred for performance, not pretty. You can lose a lot by emphasizing what the judges will put up in the show ring.

[DonC]

@zande said in AKC National Championship today:

I am getting my Covid jab tomorrow and the second eye (at my own expense but I have no choice. Insurance won't pay at a different hospital) on Friday. So don't expect anything too soon !

Sincerely hope both worked out for you.

@eeeefarm said in AKC National Championship today:

Unfortunately once you start breeding to remove certain traits and accentuate others, you often end up losing something desirable or introducing unforeseen problems.
...
You can lose a lot by emphasizing what the judges will put up in the show ring.

Amen. Amazing that such an obvious point is almost universally missed.

[tanza]

@jengosmonkey - The Tri in the video that you posted is the sire of our 2019 litter. GCHS AM Ch Astarte's Sir Tristan With Pips At Kazor x AM Ch Klassic's Joy Ride To Tanza-Jamaa. Since both Tristan and Joy are Tri's the pups were all Tri. This was the 2nd all Tri litter that I have had! Love those Tri Basenjis.... You can find pictures on my website, link below

[JENGOSMonkey]

@tanza I did not know that. Tristan is such a hansom dog. Joy is beautiful. Great pictures on your site. Logan is Tri recessive. He was bred last November, but there were no Tris. Sparkle is Tri recessive also. Perhaps she might produce a Tri next year. The good news is that I don’t have make any of the complicated choices. I just get them where they need to be on time. Sometimes it’s good not being the boss.

[tanza]

@jengosmonkey - All Tris are recessive. In order to get a Tri the recessive gene needs to be in both the sire & dam. Example Tri color to Tri Color will produce all Tri, Red that carries the Tri Gene to a Tri, either Red or Tri, Two Reds that carry the Tri gene either Red or Tri. My first Basenji bitch (back in 1994) was a red with tri recessive gene bred to a red with tri recessive gene, outcome of that litter was 3 red and 3 tri.

[JENGOSMonkey]

@tanza That works! I was hoping that the bitch Logan bred with might have been Tri recessive. I was rooting for a couple of tris. She had five. All red. I suppose it’s still possible to have all reds even if both parents are tri recessive?

[tanza]

@jengosmonkey said in AKC National Championship today:

@tanza That works! I was hoping that the bitch Logan bred with might have been Tri recessive. I was rooting for a couple of tris. She had five. All red. I suppose it’s still possible to have all reds even if both parents are tri recessive?

Correct, what is Logan's registered name? If there are Tri's in the pedigree, he might carry the Tri gene. If one of his parents are Tri he would carry the Tri gene. And yes it is totally possible to have all reds even if they both carry the Tri gene. What is the bitches registered name?

[JENGOSMonkey]

@tanza Logan is Astarte’s Logan’s World. His momma Zayna, who is a Tri, so I know he carries the gene. I don’t know the bitches registered name. I try and stay out of it. Our female is Astarte’s Sparkle Perfect. Both our Basenjis show up on Zande’s site. It’s back a ways, but Sparkle has a Black & White and a Brindle in there as well as tris.

[tanza]

@jengosmonkey - As said you can only be sure of a Tri litter if you have Tri to Tri... otherwise it is just what happens with the genes... LOL

[Zande]

And although a black streak through the tail indicates the dog (or bitch) carries tri, its absence does not mean there is no tri gene.

I have had tris from a bitch with not a sign of black fur in her tail, and actually no tris anywhere near close up in her pedigree.

Whispering in their ears during pregnancy is no help either. Trouble was a lovely tri and we were so hoping for her to pass her color on in at least one son. So I kept nagging her - But no. Five red and white girls eventually emerged !