Wow, Franie has nice dark coat 🆒.
My new brindle bundle of joy…
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It was neither long nor a digression– I enjoyed the story and related to it! Ava may change... or I could be like those owners who loved a dog that would never respect them. What I have finally had to do is to accept Ava's limitations and adjust my expectations to her temperament. She and I are a mismatch, and while it's disappointing, all I can do is try and make her the best she can be. Maybe she'll surprise me and prove all the vets and trainers and experts wrong!
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LOL, agilebasenji and Chealsie, a vacation– yes! I need one! And Colorado IS beautiful... but could you see flying Ava in the crate? Her screams would interfere with radar, and I would be afraid she would destruct the crate and chew a hole in the plane (only half joking). I'm reading Control Unleashed now. I'm also using the Martingale for gentle corrections. I do see signs of progress, though every win is small and hard fought.
Well, you could always drive.
I'm glad to hear you are seeing some progress.
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I can attest to a quick turn around…thins were so bad for so long with Oakley. When I finally started to adjust my expectations to his limitations (just like u said Pamela) it made it easier...and then one day he was a changed dog..we are still different styles as I call it but we make it work...sometimes I wish he was more amenable to me but then again, he wouldn't be Oakley.
As she grows things should get easier...perhaps not in the "storybook" way but in a liveable way!
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I'm not sure where you are in TN, but we will be racing ours in Midway, TN in a couple weeks if you would like to meet her uncle and two cousins.
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Please don't use a choke collar. Stick with the clicker and positive methods - she's just a puppy! If I get this right, you've only known each other for a month and a half? You've had dogs before, you know it takes enormous amounts of time and patience to help them develop into calm, lovely grown-ups, and some of them certainly need more guidance than others…
'Alpha' and 'dominant', by the way, are labels that trainers nowadays have abandoned, based on theories they have debunked. Your puppy has various issues which all have a cause, and placing them all under a general 'dominance' or 'stubbornness' label can only, in my opinion, distract from the solution and make you feel like she's voluntarily antagonising you.
Trust your original instincts, and continue doing the great job of researching and exploring positive solutions that you've already started. It's only been a few weeks!
Just my two cents...
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I can attest to a quick turn around…thins were so bad for so long with Oakley. When I finally started to adjust my expectations to his limitations (just like u said Pamela) it made it easier...and then one day he was a changed dog..we are still different styles as I call it but we make it work...sometimes I wish he was more amenable to me but then again, he wouldn't be Oakley.
As she grows things should get easier...perhaps not in the "storybook" way but in a liveable way!
LOL, Chealsie, Ava and Oakley are like fine wine– they get better with age! I just wasn't anticipating Ava's problems and expected her temperament to be different and for her to progress faster. It's a different path, but we'll get there at her pace. Oakley grew into an amazing dog, and I think Miss Ava will, too.
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We're in Knoxville, Lisa. I'm not sure where Midway is, but I'll check it out. Ava and I would love to meet Uncle Xander and the girls! I hope to get Ava into lure coursing or agility when she's older (if she has the aptitude for it), so spectating would be fun.
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Midway is about 20 miles east of Knoxville according to the directions I printed.
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Wow, when I got driving directions, it said 97 miles. Near Jonesborough– is that right?
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Stick with the clicker and positive methods - she's just a puppy! If I get this right, you've only known each other for a month and a half? You've had dogs before, you know it takes enormous amounts of time and patience to help them develop into calm, lovely grown-ups, and some of them certainly need more guidance than others…
'Alpha' and 'dominant', by the way, are labels that trainers nowadays have abandoned, based on theories they have debunked. Your puppy has various issues which all have a cause, and placing them all under a general 'dominance' or 'stubbornness' label can only, in my opinion, distract from the solution and make you feel like she's voluntarily antagonising you.
I have only used positive reinforcement with Ava. I parted ways with the trainer who wanted to use a choke collar, because I wasn't on board with her methods. Ava has multiple issues, and we are treating each one independently, using desensitization therapy, clicker training and other positive techniques. I only did this after consulting with a board-certified veterinary behaviorist, who diagnosed Ava. We don't know to what degree these solutions will work or how long they will take, but I am hopeful.
I know that two months is not a lot of time, but when you have a puppy that can be neither confined nor left alone and daycare is not an option, the perspective shifts. I can't go to the grocery store… the pharmacy... or the bank without a dog sitter. I can't even take a shower, because Ava goes nuts with doors closed. Crating or babygating her an hour is not yet possible, because a setback could regress us to square one. I work with a demanding puppy leashed to my side. So while I have had dogs-- and Basenjis-- before, I have never had one like this. It's a new experience and a challenging one.
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I can't even take a shower, because Ava goes nuts with doors closed.
Oh, I have the fix for that one! Take her in the shower with you. She will soon decide being on her own in the bathroom is preferable to accompanying you!
Seriously, I know this must be a very trying time, and believe me, most people would have given up by now. I am sure the rewards at the end will be worth it, so hang in there! Did you ever try "borrowing" an older, quiet dog to keep her company?
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Oh, I have the fix for that one! Take her in the shower with you. She will soon decide being on her own in the bathroom is preferable to accompanying you!
Seriously, I know this must be a very trying time, and believe me, most people would have given up by now. I am sure the rewards at the end will be worth it, so hang in there! Did you ever try "borrowing" an older, quiet dog to keep her company?
LOL– I did try taking her in the shower, and she-- surprise!-- hated it. But she hates it outside looking in, too. Inside the shower, she slipped and slid and scratched up the grout. Leaving her outside, she scratched the glass, pulled up the caulking, chewed up the rubber strip under the shower door and used the bathroom on the bathmat. (OK, I can see how that might resemble a big fluffy pee pad.) It's easier to take a bath, but even there, there are challenges.
Interesting you bring up the older dog. I put in an application to foster a seven-year-old goldendoodle. If I'm approved, I'll take Ava to meet her, and if that works, I'll bring the doodle home for a trial afternoon. I'm a little worried about the two females thing, but the doodle is supposedly very calm and gentle, housetrained and crate trained. It's a sad situation where her owner died, so maybe we would all be helping each other.
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I'm a little worried about the two females thing, but the doodle is supposedly very calm and gentle, housetrained and crate trained. It's a sad situation where her owner died, so maybe we would all be helping each other.
That sounds ideal. I would be very surprised if you had issues because Ava is still a pup. When I had two girls, I got my pup at 7 weeks while my older girl was 7 years. Even though Lady was same sex aggressive, she treated Tamu as a puppy, and as the pup grew up they remained inseparable. BFF for life. They mostly slept curled up together. And I think with a quiet, older doodle, your chances of a good match are excellent…..
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My first basenji (female) was great friends with hubby's lab. They were about a year apart in age,with the basenji being the older. So, Rox was about a year when the lab puppy joined her. And Zest! gets on fine with both female malinois we've had. The first was about 4 when puppy Zest! joined the household. That was a love match. I have dozens of pics of Z on top of the mali. Mali #1 sadly, unexpectedly passed when Z was about a 1 1/2 year old, so a month later we got a 10 month old femal mali. They get on fine, not like with mali #1, but no issues. I think with Ava being so young, it should work.
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I have to add, the goldendoodles i've met, at least in this area, are very sweet, good natured mild mannered dogs. ( i groom dogs, so i've had my hands on quite a few). Labradoodles are crazy though.
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I think Bs like big dogs. Spencer lived with two goldens for a good while– all males-- and they were a very happy pack. Guess who was the canine leader of that pack? Yep, the middle child, the little B, who was 1/3 their body weight. The reason Ava was not accepted into daycare is because they size the dogs into two play areas. Ava played too rough and wild with the small dogs, and they thought she was too little for the big dogs. And she probably is. But give her a few months.
If it works out, the goldendoodle would be a foster-- not here permanently. Though ya just never know. She's only 30 lbs-- not a big doodle at all. I feel bad for her. She was a well-loved girl and she misses her human.
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I have only used positive reinforcement with Ava. I parted ways with the trainer who wanted to use a choke collar, because I wasn't on board with her methods. Ava has multiple issues, and we are treating each one independently, using desensitization therapy, clicker training and other positive techniques. I only did this after consulting with a board-certified veterinary behaviorist, who diagnosed Ava. We don't know to what degree these solutions will work or how long they will take, but I am hopeful.
I know that two months is not a lot of time, but when you have a puppy that can be neither confined nor left alone and daycare is not an option, the perspective shifts. I can't go to the grocery store… the pharmacy... or the bank without a dog sitter. I can't even take a shower, because Ava goes nuts with doors closed. Crating or babygating her an hour is not yet possible, because a setback could regress us to square one. I work with a demanding puppy leashed to my side. So while I have had dogs-- and Basenjis-- before, I have never had one like this. It's a new experience and a challenging one.
Sorry if my post sounded critical in any way; I did see that you'd given up on that trainer and that you'd mentioned clicker training, and I completely realise that Ava's anxiety sounds way beyond the average Basenji troublemaker… I just saw mention of choke collars and noise training in a few posts and panicked a bit.
About a decade ago my parents' Jack Russell started developing fearful aggression issues, and got some very bad training advice, including choke collars, and using a jerrycan filled with stones to make noise. Long story short - it made matters much worse. Because of that experience - and the much more pleasant and rewarding experience of clicker training my girl -, any thought of aversive training methods scares me...
The foster dog idea sounds great!
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The exact address of the racing is 935 denver lane, midway, tn 37809. According to google maps its about an hour from Knoxville, its exit 15 on I 81 North and just a few miles off the exit.
I have never been there before, so not sure what the site is like, assuming is a typical farmers field. -
any thought of aversive training methods scares me…
The problem is, who defines what is aversive to the dog? While you may think you are using only positive methods, in reality most "positive" trainers use at least negative punishment, and some also unwittingly use positive as well. The dog's reaction determines which it is. As I understand it, anything that increases the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated is reinforcement. Anything that decreases the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated is punishment.
So "time outs" in a crate or ignoring an aggressive puppy is a punishment…...in this case usually negative punishment, as you are taking away the pup's freedom to indulge in unwanted behaviour. Crating can also act as positive punishment, often unintentionally. For a dog that abhors confinement, it is hard to define it any other way. From the dog's point of view, it is punishment. So whatever behaviour immediately preceded confinement is being punished......which is how you train your dog not to come!! (see Karen Prior's notes on "the poisoned cue" http://www.clickertraining.com/node/164)
Of course, it is not quite so simple, and it is certainly possible to condition a more accepting attitude toward the crate, but for the experience to be positive something good needs to happen when the dog enters the crate, and it has to be more salient to the dog than the confinement is aversive. For some dogs, it just isn't possible to adequately compensate them for the loss of freedom.
It might be interesting to try backward chaining here. i.e. release from the crate earns a reward, but of course you must be in the crate in order to be released and receive the reward. So instead of directly rewarding entering the crate, you set it up so that the dog must enter the crate, be confined, then be released and receive the treat. The cues for each step of the behaviour act as positive reinforcers, as they allow the dog to do the next step and eventually get to the reward at the end. And then once this is solid and the dog is enjoying it, you can go on to gradually increase the amount of time before release. I might try something along those lines. It would be interesting to see the dog's response…..
For a good understanding of back chaining, see Karen Prior's article here: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/111
I taught the retrieve using this method. And I agree with her statement, "If you back-chain the retrieve you will always have a zesty, eager partner who will never try to play "keep-away" instead of fetching the object back to you."
I think the hardest thing when you are training is being clear what behaviour you are rewarding. If things aren't improving, perhaps you aren't reinforcing what you think you are!
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When I hear "aversive" I think of "pain", not punishment from a general operant conditioning perspective. But that's just me.
