Need good advice on serious topic:
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I don't have any additional advice other than what has been offered, but you do have my sympathies. My Shiba has a long history of this. He IS a biting resource guarder. We traded up, traded up, traded up, and he's much better about it now, but he does still steal objects on occasion – especially when he feels like he is not being paid enough attention (which luckily, doesn't happen very often). If it's not dangerous, we just let him have it; to make a fuss over the object is to reward him, because that's what he was looking for. Otherwise, we still trade up. He becomes visibly less tense when we ask him, "Do you want a XXX?" (with or without the treat in hand).
One key, I have found, is to move slooowly while offering the treat. You don't have to sneak up on the object, but let him know that you do intend to take it back while keeping his attention fixated on whatever treat you're going to offer. Try to keep him under threshold of actually lunging and biting. If he manages not to respond, treat and praise.
I'm afraid this doesn't help the long-term concern of what would happen if a child happens to have their item randomly stolen. I don't live in a situation where young children are a concern, so unfortunately I have nothing to offer there.
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This thread got me interested in the subject of biting dogs…...seems the problem is on the increase lately. This bit jumped out at me from an article I read:
_Dr. Ilana Reisner, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, examined more than 100 medical records of dogs that had bitten children in order to better understand why these incidents occur.
"We found that most children had been bitten by dogs that had no history of biting," she said. "Most important here, familiar children were bitten most often in the contexts of nice interactions, such as kissing and hugging – with their own dogs or dogs that they knew."_ (emphasis mine)
I suppose if there is anything good in having had a biting or threatening experience with your dog it's that at least you are now aware of the potential problem and that you need to guard against it. Having an incident with a child come totally out of the blue from a dog you considered trustworthy must be devastating, especially if it results in serious injury and having to put the dog down.
Why do some people have problems and others never do? I think there are a lot of factors at play. Quercus wrote in response to my assertion that I haven't had a problem with any of my dogs:
Or, it could be that you haven't had a dog that was willing to bite over some item that they stole. Lucky you! Maybe it is how you handle your dogs as pups…or maybe you have just been lucky to not have a dog with temperament issues...or maybe dogs just like you better than they like other people....I don't know...
I agree, I may have been lucky. I raised only two Basenjis from pups, the other three I acquired between 8 months and 3 years of age, so their socialization was dealt with by someone else. Perhaps I should be crediting their breeders for my success, although my current boy has bitten me a few times…...never over food or theft. In fact, he bit me within hours of arriving here, when I went to remove his leash and with his breeder standing right beside me releasing the companion dog she had brought with her for the trip! Talk about an inauspicious beginning with a dog. (she was as shocked as I was!) Since then, I had one other questionable incident that I believe was set off by my body language......my mother had just died, we were en route to her funeral, I did something quickly and Perry for some reason took my action as a threat, don't know why but of course I was tense at the time. (and we hadn't had him all that long......I swear it was close to a year before he thought the arrangement was permanent!) Other than that, the only biting and attempted biting incidents with him have been when he has been in pain.....holding up icy cold feet in winter, reacting to unexpected pain while playing. I know I would never trust him with kids, because when he hurts he reacts before he thinks. I don't believe I can "fix" this. In normal conditions, he doesn't bite, and I can take anything away from him.
I am rambling. I just wanted to demonstrate that I have been where you are and know what it feels like to have a dog you love "go off" on you. Just because it wasn't for the same reasons doesn't change that sick feeling you get immediately after such an incident. My guy is good as gold, most of the time. But because I know pain is such a trigger for him, I know I can't risk an incident with a child.....or indeed an adult. If he bites me or my husband, we can deal with that. None of the bites have been serious.....barely breaking skin......and have been rare. Perhaps on average once a year. I'm glad I know he isn't trustworthy. It's better than being blindsided by an unfortunate incident.
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I appreciate the advice and am 100% on board with trading up, I used to think it was rewarding h for stealing something but it is the lesser of two evils, it is worth the aggression I fear I provoke with my approach. As you said, the more you had to do it the less escalated it becomes, I hope this will be the case with Oakley. I am happy to report that I can just about completely refocus his attention with mentioning "do you want a…."
2% chance he will finish eating his stolen treasure then go looking for a cookie! It is hard to admit the reality of having a tough dog, and orbit up to the fact that I will always ha WTO be hypervigilant with him around children, just to be safer than sorry -
I appreciate the advice and am 100% on board with trading up, I used to think it was rewarding h for stealing something but it is the lesser of two evils, it is worth the aggression I fear I provoke with my approach. As you said, the more you had to do it the less escalated it becomes, I hope this will be the case with Oakley. I am happy to report that I can just about completely refocus his attention with mentioning "do you want a…."
2% chance he will finish eating his stolen treasure then go looking for a cookie! It is hard to admit the reality of having a tough dog, and orbit up to the fact that I will always ha WTO be hypervigilant with him around children, just to be safer than sorryI have learnerd the same thing, people come over, even adults, the dogs go in their crates, for everyones protection. After being a Basenji owner for so long I could never recommend getting one to another person, why go through this if you can have an "easy" dog or a rescue from the pound?
I do love our dogs, but you have to accept what your getting into with these dogs, my question is why?
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Why? I suspect some day they will find some sort of masochism gene coupled with an oddball sense of humor gene that pair to make these dogs the delight of our days.
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Why? I suspect some day they will find some sort of masochism gene coupled with an oddball sense of humor gene that pair to make these dogs the delight of our days.
Rationally I can't think of a reason to choose a basenji over an easy dog, but during the good times (99% of time) I can't see myself owner another type of dog. Our other basenji is very primative & instinct driven, very text book basenji, but she never bites, but pretend bites, where she never puts her mouth/teeth on you. Our biter, the last few times at the vet, I warn them to be careful with him, they said he was the best behaved dog. He lets them do everything but trimming his nails (must be muzzled). Shots, drawing blood, no problem, but try to trim his nails forget it. He used to be easy to muzzle, but now he puts his head between his front legs and will snap if you bring the muzzle near him.
Last time they cleaned his teeth (putting him under), they told me he was holding his breath as to not breath in the gas.Yes you have to have a sense of humor or be a moron. I guess I am a little of both, as my dog laughs at me.
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My Taz is the same way. He is a thief and will actually try to steal it from your hand if not careful. If I ignore him in any way he will try to find something to steal to get my attention. He has never ever been agressive in any way, shape, or form. When he has something he stole and I go to get it from him he will try to run and hide but once I catch up to him he will cower and then roll over on his back and of course continue to hold onto it. When go to take it from him I have to physically open his mouth but when I do I say give and he always gives it up without a fight. That being said, I do like to use a squirt bottle to help battle against his thievery. It is nice to see that some of the same problems I have with my Taz are not isolated to just my dog lol. It is just his nature!
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Why? I suspect some day they will find some sort of masochism gene coupled with an oddball sense of humor gene that pair to make these dogs the delight of our days.
Will this gene be available for husbands and boyfriends? :) Sorry to the guys on the forum, but I just couldn't resist saying this! :)
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Last time they cleaned his teeth (putting him under), they told me he was holding his breath as to not breath in the gas.
And this action is from a dog breed who is not supposed to be intelligent. Yeah, right!
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I do have to say on the good side of our dog is that he is a gentle, well behaved, very loving dog 99% of the time. That's the part that makes him so special to our family.
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Dogs behavior is interesting. Ive just gone from a single dog home to 2 dogs.
When it was just my partner and our first dog Hope, my partner was boss even though she was my dog. Since getting the second dog our pack dynamic has changed and I have become boss. Simple command such as 'out' by my partner results in the two ratbags to look at each other and go the opposite direction. If I am to request it they abide. It's interestingly see how the roles are reversed.
I think alot comes down to temperament, breeding and how they are brought up. My two will not even consider climbing a fence or digging out of it. In fact they are left in the yard while we go to work. However my friends puppy is a typical basenji that scales fences and digs under them. He came from a different breeder, how he is raised is different from how I raise my two. He came and stayed for a week and he really is a brilliant dog, he didn't leave my yard during the stay (and yes he has other dogs that he lives with where his owner lives so it wasn't because he had company- its because we made him apart of the family, allowed him inside and to be with us- why would he want to leave. Same theory I have about my 2, they have no reason to get over that fence).
I guess I'm lucky that I don't have a resource guarder when it comes to stealing food (yes they are still basenji like when it comes to some stuff) but they seem to be more worried about the consequences and either leave it or gives it up to me, of they are up to mischief I come in with a stern voice and that's usually enough for them to call it quits. (I don't replace their stolen good with something better as Hope is rather smart and would simply do it again to get the better treat.. damn they are smart!!)
I'm thankful I don't have issues like that but wanted to say how their behavior is interesting to learn from, I never thought I'd be a 'pack leader' (as I never thought I'd have 2 basenjis so Hope would always look to my partner as the leader) but its fascinating how the roles change.
Here's hoping that your problem can be fixed, what a nasty bite in that photo.
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Here another resource guarder. He won't try to steal something, and even if something is just lieing on the floor and I tell him to 'leave it' he won't touch it. He doesn't have a problem with me taking his food, toys… But if I give him a bone then I can't take it back before he is finished with it. or better, I couldn't. The way I fixed the problem is not by trading of just taking it away, but by making him feel comfortable with something while I'm very close to him. So basically. I first give him a bone, and I would hold it while he was eating it. Then just sitting and walking around him and giving him a little treat from time to time, without taking his bone away. The next time, I took a book and went to sit right next to him, completly ignoring him. Doesn't took long before he stopped gnarling at me if stretched my hand at him while he had a bone. And after a while I could just easily take, whatever he had, away from him without a reaction. Most of the time I just give it back, but if it is something he really can't have, I'm now able to just take it from him.
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I don't know if this will help or not, I have only had one resource guarder, and he was brought up by someone else. All the dogs I have raised have never, ever had a problem with me taking things from them as I would start from the beginning putting my hand in their mouth and working with them to that end of taking something from them and trading up.
The one dog that was a guarder, I would having something, preferably very, very smelly and not terrible for him, and pretend I would be eating it first and then turn away from him and pretend I was resource guarding it from him. It would just peak his interest enough whereby he would drop what he had and would come over to see if what I had was better than what he had. I would then throw it and while he went to retrieve it, I would steal what he had. I realize this would probably not work with many dogs, but it worked with him. Sometimes you have to figure out your own way to fake out your own dog. Only you would know if it would work with your dog and adjust a method to work into your program.
Good luck.
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Not quite on topic, but my sister had a GSD that devised her own distraction methods to get what she wanted from the Shepherd/Husky cross that shared the house. If he had something she wanted, she would run to the door and bark! He, of course, would come running, and she would double back and steal his treasure. Smart dog! I mention this because this type of distraction can also work (at least once) with a Basenji. Ignore the theft, go to the door, either ring the bell or open the door and pretend you are talking to someone. With luck, the dog will be distracted enough to leave the loot and come see what is going on…....at which point you grab the dog (don't get into a race for the loot, you will lose!) Pretending it is walk time can also work.
Basenjis are smart enough to catch on, and not so easily fooled next time, but in an emergency there are lots of distractions that may have the desired effect.
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LOL, my oldest rottie, if one of the other dogs was on HER bed, would go to the window and bark. They would run to the window, she would run to the bed. However, other stuff, they let her have it– she was the ruler. If they got too rowdy, she got up, took their toys away one by one, put on her bed, laid down on them. Play over.
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I like eeefarm's suggestion purely because my basenjis use distraction when they want something from another. They for instance will jump up excitedly to look out the window and when the one with the article gets up to see what the excitement is the first will grab the same.
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All this talk of creating diversions to thwart a resource guarder reminds me of this guy:
http://animalsbeingdicks.com/post/12598824899/diversion-dog(wish I could embed)
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Yeah our dogs do similar things to each other all the time, but usually in order to steal someones spot on the couch. Our dogs act like their is something outside, then when the other dog comes, they steal it's spot on the couch or with someone.
