Working Dog Basenji Pups Waiting list

[GeorgiaK9]

On topic question to the professional breeders. We are trying to do the right thing and had planned a full battery of tests before breeding but timing was off and it happened. We did get Fancini an had plans for cerf, and penn hip. Now it is after the fact and we plan on getting all tests for kaden and what is possible for Phoenix. Recommendations would be appreciated. Please no nasty comments. Thank you in advance.

[tanza]

@GeorgiaK9:

On topic question to the professional breeders. We are trying to do the right thing and had planned a full battery of tests before breeding but timing was off and it happened. We did get Fancini an had plans for cerf, and penn hip. Now it is after the fact and we plan on getting all tests for kaden and what is possible for Phoenix. Recommendations would be appreciated. Please no nasty comments. Thank you in advance.

Again, I am not going to comment on your training procedures… while I would not use them... I do not have working field dogs, so there will always be a difference there.

As far as testing, important IMO is the direct Fanconi test for sure, CERF eye exams, hips from OFA (if you use Penn Hip, posting the results since they are not available via a website to check. Thyroid testing, and certainly for a working dog, elbow OFA, Patella testing, and I would think heart testing. I am not a big fan of Penn hip, but either OFA or Penn Hip would be a must. All should be done for both the sire and dam. And since your pups will be working dogs, I would think that hips, eyes, elbow, and patellas would be very important along with their natual ability when grading the litter.

Let me add that I don't know of any responsible breeders that would be or consider themselves "professional" breeders... we are all hobby breeders, just wanting to improve the breed, we are not in it to make a profit. So my response to health testing is from a hobby breeders prospective, not from someone that wants or thinks they will make a profit from any puppies. Cover my cost, sure... does that happen? Not very often.

[sinbaje]

@GeorgiaK9:

On the other hand, I see tons of dogs daily with no control who spend their lives behind doors or with all kinds of contraptions on that they hate and that make them crazy; reactive, neurotic beasts. IMO, this is how one kills their wonderfully wild companions with what they think is kindness.

I also want to back up what another wrote that most working dog trainers use e-collars. That is the absolute truth. They do it because they work well an produce better dogs.

A rather gross generalization, IMO.

Then to compare those who train using shock collars as having better, less neurotic dogs then those who do absolutely nothing with their dogs, is a bit of smoke and mirrors.

Any dog doing something mentally or physically stimulating other than being locked behind closed doors will be a better companion irregardless of whether or not a shock collar is being used.

Interesting that Native Africans do not use shock collars on their native dogs and yet work in a collaborative way with each other. In fact, I would hazard a guess there are numerous pariah dogs through out the world who do similar, without need of such a training aid; to imply one must use a shock collar to get results seems to be a validating statement only.

I agree with Debra, I have always felt shock collars to be a lazy mans way to get quick results, without a lot of effort. I know that is what I used mine for, when once upon a time my first basenjis wore shock collars. Not to train but to use in the same manner eeeefarms uses hers, to be able to go out into the desert and allow them the freedom they desired, while getting an instant recall.

As my training got better, the less I needed to rely on a shock collar - I don't think I have used one in 8-9(?) years and my current 5 basenjis (of which only two have ever seen a shock collar in their lifetime) run off leash, all the time.

As an aside, I shocked myself first before subjecting my dog to it and while the lowest setting is unpleasant, I can not imagine it to be very effective on certain, driven dogs; the higher level of shock needed, I personally found to be very uncomfortable and quite painful and thankfully not something I feel is necessary any longer for my dogs.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of creating real working basenjis in the true sense of the word if they can not work without artificial training devices encouraging them to do so or stifling their natural desires.

I find it interesting too your working dogs come from show stock, just as my highly driven and very successful performance dogs. It would seem anyone with the desire and the knowledge can turn any basenji into the working, performance or hunting dog they want - just as you and I did, so I have to wonder if this is just a marketing ploy vs. having any real meaning.

I guess that is why I have never marketed my line as a performance line, despite being on my third generation of multiple titled (and therefore proven) basenjis.

Sure, as a breeder and trainer, I can help start puppies in the right direction prior to placement, just as you can perhaps pick the best potential for working, but in the end if the owners do not have the skills or the desires we both have, no matter what line the dog came from, it will be nothing more than a loved pet or perhaps a neurotic dog as they try to use shock collars to obtain the results you have been able to obtain through years of experience.

As stated you have done the bare minimum of health testing; this lack of testing would have normally sent the forum wolves nipping at your heels but for some reason, everyone is keeping quiet?!

My hat is off to Debra for asking the hard questions and/or bringing it out in the open that perhaps the training methods on your website are not the only training methods you utilize. Or that more health testing would have been the responsible thing to do. Good on you for saying you will do further testing, I can not wait to hear the results. I hope for all your puppy people the results are favorable!

Having seen Debra in action more than once on this forum, her posts to you were quite benign, IMO and she seems to have legitimate concerns, which should be stated for any newbie considering your litter.

I do not think her intention is to single you out but to help educate those people coming to this forum and looking for their next basenji. And just because she does not agree with you, does not mean her sanity is questionable.

Good luck with your pups. I hope you get all that you desire in this breeding.

[GeorgiaK9]

Linda, your email is a gross mischaracterization and an example of your lack of experience and information. Training and working dogs in the US and in Africa are apples and oranges. You also make it appear as if the collars might be readily available there and that there is a choice in the matter. And if they were readily available there, they would probably be readily used, too. Perhaps money might have something to do with it.

You also describe cheap, poorly engineered collars if a low setting was "unpleasant". Good quality collars are imperceptible at a low setting. I would be loathe to use what you did and never recommend them. However, this is a normal mistake for pet owners. I am getting off this collar kick because it is not relevant here and was only brought up to malign me. It did not exist in my original post. If you or Debra would like to publically debate the use of collars openly and without hiding behind a computer screen, I will gladly meet you in any forum with a boatload of video and real data.

As for Debra, it is her manner and tactics that are questionable at minimum. She was incredibly rude and You just choose to ignore that. Supporting those tactics I also find offensive. There is a way to do things rationally and in a manner that is civil. These forums allow people to be unbalanced and easily get away with it…something that would be rare in a normal public setting.

You choose to mischaracterize me here perhaps not in the same fashion but it is still wrong. The bulk of what I wrote about is ignored and you simply choose to capitalize on those things that you want to attack. If you were truly helpful, you might have addressed my question. Thank you for all of your help.

I have often heard of "snarky" basenjis....the term more aptly describes their owners at times. It may also be where the behavior comes from.

[GeorgiaK9]

Thanks Pat, that was helpful….my issue is Phoenix after the fact. What tests can be done reliably now? Kaden is the easy one. This took us by surprise and we were not completely prepared. We usually use PennHip for ours GSD's and hounds feeling that they are actually more accurate. We will probably stay with it. Both dogs have all preliminary work done and they are very strong and healthy. We mean to finalize it now the best we can.

[DebraDownSouth]

@GeorgiaK9:

OMG, hysteria rises again.

@GeorgiaK9:

Little help from a moderator here? This is becoming a little psycho now.

@GeorgiaK9:

I have to say I appreciate a few sane people on my topic of a working line of basenjis. Somehow, it digressed into personal attacks on me by a person who I do not even know…..I suppose that is the nature of Internet forums where it is safe to be rude and pedantic while hiding behind a keyboard.
**We produce great working dogs, perhaps some of the best in the country . Stay tuned if you want to learn more about the basenji component.
**
Jeff

@GeorgiaK9:

Linda, your email is a gross mischaracterization and an example of your lack of experience and information.
She was incredibly rude and You just choose to ignore that. Supporting those tactics I also find offensive. There is a way to do things rationally and in a manner that is civil. These forums allow people to be unbalanced

I have often heard of "snarky" basenjis….the term more aptly describes their owners at times. It may also be where the behavior comes from.

You made snide comments, say people are psycho when NOTHING about you personally but simply about your lack of doing RESPONSIBLE TESTING and opinions on e-collars (and your site misinformation stating POSITIVE training)… and then cry for the wambulance (moderator) when you have been more personally attacking than anyone. If someone disagrees with you, they are hysterical, attacking and all sorts of things. If you are snide and make personal digs, it's fine. My comments were on topic-- you are the one making personal attacks. And I hide behind nothing. I am not a made up persona, I am a real person who others have met. If you are delusional enough to think I wouldn't say exactly to your face what I am saying here, you obviously haven't talked about me to anyone who knows me. I may be a lot of things, but you can be sure I am neither a coward hiding behind a keyboard.

Curious... how many great working dogs have you produced? Their names/titles please? Not sure why you think folks here need to pull up a crate to be educated by you about "the basenji component" (whatever that means).

Now really done. When legit questions are met with attacks, beyond time to move on.

[GeorgiaK9]

Again the tone and tenor of your post is indicative of your rudeness. I am sorry you are so bitter. You simply want to say anything you can to get a reaction. You are also trying to guide anyone who will listen to you away without knowing much at all. You did this with your second or third post when I had answered really nothng other than to say it was nice to meet you and please come by to vist. The disagreement was primarily from others who made their own comments. The difference is they were trying to explain what they thought while you do nothing more than shooting off a fulisade and try to embarrass people. Trying to rationalize this with you will never work so I will not try anymore. I will not submit to your attacks and simply go silent, however.

For anyone who would like to see our working dogs, please go to our web site. Also, none are show dogs. A championship title does not make a working dog and I do not know any police or military handler that shows theirs. Not to say there are none. And the statement is made simply to explain why there are no CH titles with our dogs and probably never will be. Lastly we are not breeders and this is the only one. We buy 7 week old pups, raise and train them, for police, DoD, SAR, and service for disabilities. We buy our dogs from breeders that have proven lines of working dogs. Our working dogs are primarily GSD's, Malinois, Bloodhounds, Goldens, and Labs. The only working Basenjis are our own but we have been trying to do this with my favorite breed for a few years. I have tested several B's over the years from some great breeders with show lines, but searching for work traits. This is how we obtained what we have. Our female basenji, Phoenix, is the product of that work. We realized if this was to move forward, we needed something more and looked into newer African blood. We will never be a breeding facility. Lastly, anyone really interested in seeing what we do may visit our facility. We do really good work and our dogs help to make and save lives every day.

[DebraDownSouth]

And more personal attacks. Well when you can't argue points and facts, attacking people might cause the weak-minded to forget the real issues and focus on the personal slurs.

[tanza]

@GeorgiaK9:

Thanks Pat, that was helpful….my issue is Phoenix after the fact. What tests can be done reliably now? Kaden is the easy one. This took us by surprise and we were not completely prepared. We usually use PennHip for ours GSD's and hounds feeling that they are actually more accurate. We will probably stay with it. Both dogs have all preliminary work done and they are very strong and healthy. We mean to finalize it now the best we can.

Since the bitch is with pups, hips (I believe that PennHip would carry the same concerns as OFA Hips on a bitch that is in whelp) and thyroid need to wait 4 or 5 months, IMO. CERF exams can be done now, however

[GeorgiaK9]

Thank you for the advice, Pat. It is meaningful and appreciated.

Jeff

[eeeefarm]

@DebraDownSouth:

(and your site misinformation stating POSITIVE training)

There is unfortunately a lot of confusion about the term "positive" in regards to training. As I expect you know, although others might not, in the operant conditioning vocabulary there is no judgement attached to the terms "positive" and "negative", but only a referral as to whether something is added or taken away. Positive can mean either positive reinforcement or positive punishment. (something added to increase the likelihood of a behavior, something added to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour, respectively.) Some training methods employ both, and many "positive" trainers use negative punishment, although they like to say they don't use punishment at all. This could be considered misleading to someone who doesn't agree with punishment in any form. It can be difficult to assess what is actually being done by simply reading someone's site info. Most people are going to look into it further if they are interested, but I wouldn't consider the term "positive" to be misleading. Confusion results when people don't adequately understand the terminology.

[Nemo]

@tanza:

Since the bitch is with pups, hips (I believe that PennHip would carry the same concerns as OFA Hips on a bitch that is in whelp) and thyroid need to wait 4 or 5 months, IMO. CERF exams can be done now, however

Given it's after the fact, might as well wait and CERF the dam when he does the puppies.

[tanza]

@Nemo:

Given it's after the fact, might as well wait and CERF the dam when he does the puppies.

Good point Clay.

[sinbaje]

@GeorgiaK9:

Training and working dogs in the US and in Africa are apples and oranges. You also make it appear as if the collars might be readily available there and that there is a choice in the matter. And if they were readily available there, they would probably be readily used, too.

Dogs are dogs, be it in US, Africa or Timbuktu. What humans want/expect from their dogs might be what differentiates us, as does the means in which we attain it. Somehow I have doubts natives would ever have need or desire to use a shock collar, except perhaps on each other. ;o)

I certainly can not see the need to fix something that has seemingly been working for hundreds of years and that something is the ability to work and hunt alongside their canine counterpart, without need of any artificial aid - sans a gourd bell around their neck or groin. If it can work for them, surely it can work for any one of us. And no, I am under no grand delusions they click/treat train their dogs or do not use correction based/physical means but for you to imply, Jeff that a shock collar is the only way to get the best out of a dog, makes me pause and think - how is it native populaces, without the benefits higher westernized education/training methods, can find a way to work alongside their dogs and we say its near impossible?

And really - the whole point being - native people do NOT have a choice, therefore they must find a way to be successful, which is much harder IMO, then slapping on a shock collar and compelling a dog to do ones bidding.

In truth I am not too interested in the use, or non use, of shock collars and certainly my post was not attacking, only musing my thoughts aloud while supporting Debra after your implication that a dissenting opinion must mean she/we are hysterical, insane, inexperienced and uneducated, of which we are none of the above.

Until such time they become illegal, shock collars are a personal choice best left up to (I hope) a trained individual and their dog. I have tried it, it is not for me, or my dogs, and I am still able to work my dogs and give them plenty of unrestrained freedom.

@GeorgiaK9:

You also describe cheap, poorly engineered collars if a low setting was "unpleasant". Good quality collars are imperceptible at a low setting. I would be loathe to use what you did and never recommend them. However, this is a normal mistake for pet owners.

Gosh, I should hope I am a bit above the average pet person. ;O) That said - please do not tell my ex-husband his several thousand dollar investment for the e-collar and the intensive professional training was cheap! If he had known I could go to Petsmart, buy a $100 Innotek and learn for myself, he would flip a switch, even now.

@GeorgiaK9:

The bulk of what I wrote about is ignored and you simply choose to capitalize on those things that you want to attack. If you were truly helpful, you might have addressed my question. Thank you for all of your help.

The bulk of what you wrote was discussing your working line of basenjis, a "line" of dogs that comes from show stock (ie non "working" basenjis) as a means of promoting your upcoming litter. I addressed what I felt about this; I felt the emphasis on showcasing a unique "working line" of basenjis is perhaps (yes? no?) a means to market them to hopeful buyers vs any real validity since they originate out of non-working show stock; to mean any breeder can produce a working, hunting, performing, social dog in the hands of a skilled and determined owner so really - is there a need for a distinct working line in our breed? A performance line? A coursing line? *I am not convinced there is.

I would worry puppy buyers might end up with expectations their basenjis will respond similarly to yours with very little effort or foundation, all based on behaviors they see in your dogs, obtained via the e-collar. When their basenji does not respond to their naive attempts at training and they turn to the e-collar for help and the dog does not respond as expected; i.e. they shut down, become hyper-vigilant, reactive/aggressive or quake in fear waiting for the next shoe to drop - then what?

I am certainly not saying your dogs react this way, but I have seen enough after effects of e-collar work (from novices to professionals) to know this can be an offshoot problem and that does concern me especially since you do seem to promote more of a positive/reward based technique/spin on your website which folks might assume you primarily use on your dogs to get the results you have.

Now then - if you were to fully train your basenjis and sell them as trained, working, adult dogs - that would be different as the buyer would be getting exactly what you are advertising and it would be up to them to maintain the dog at that level or to allow it to regress.

As for addressing your question re: what you should have tested for - this is your second litter Jeff, shouldn't you already know what you should have tested for?

Per the OFA you started out great with Axel - getting his CHIC (fanconi, hips, eyes, elbows, patellas and thyroid), then you kind of fell behind the eight ball with Aru (eyes and fanconi only prior to her litter) then even less with Kaden and Phoenix (fanconi only (at this time) for their litter).

I think starting with the tests you did with Axel prior to his litter would be a good start.

Now of course, with the DNA fanconi test available, ALL breeding/foundation animals - regardless of what their probable status was - should be re-tested so that is something else that should be done or perhaps you could just DNA all the get before they go to their new homes - then the parents would not need to be done, assuming you do not plan to breed them again. If you plan to breed again - they need to be tested because even all clear pups does not mean all clear parents.

Right now the BHE is supplementing retests at $15 a test so instead of $65 it only costs $50- a nice incentive if money is tight.

IMO, any testing is better than no testing and being open and honest about it, if not with us nosey nellies, then your puppy people, is the icing on the cake.

Again, good luck.

[GeorgiaK9]

"I would worry puppy buyers might end up with expectations their basenjis will respond similarly to yours with very little effort or foundation, all based on behaviors they see in your dogs, obtained via the e-collar. When their basenji does not respond to their naive attempts at training and they turn to the e-collar for help and the dog does not respond as expected; i.e. they shut down, become hyper-vigilant, reactive/aggressive or quake in fear waiting for the next shoe to drop - then what?"

Your key words are all obtained via an e-collar…is that not rather presumptuous on your part? Seriously, have you ever watched me train, even seen my basenjis perform, every privy to anything? No, you really are not. So, a simple statement like that is misleading to those who might read it. Were you malicious, perhaps not and that is only for you to know, but misleading nonetheless, and that is not exactly friendly or responsible. You have no idea what the collar is used for with my basenjis and if you would like to find out, ask those who know or come find out for yourself but please do not try to present what you think I do to anyone else without at least doing your due diligence. If you want to know what I do, have the courage to put your boots on and run with my dogs but please do not write misleading statements about me. I will happily take you out and show you anything you want to see. Perhaps it might not be so bad after all; we both might learn something.

ABSOLUTELY NO TRAINING is done with an E-collar with our basenjis. It is for recall only in dangerous situations. The dogs when hunting will go after anything at times. Unlike a native African, if I can stop my basenji from running headlong into danger, I will. My older male Axel has a thing for bobcats and Phoenix wants deer...both dogs will hunt these animals and try to kill them if possible and they can be so wrapped up in what they think they can do that they cannot get themselves out of a bad situation. The first time I went to an e-collar with Axel was when he went after a fox and was gone for several hours. I do not care what anyone says....an e-collar is great if one wants to let a basenji run as free as possible and mine are free all of the time when we are out.

"I certainly can not see the need to fix something that has seemingly been working for hundreds of years and that something is the ability to work and hunt alongside their canine counterpart, without need of any artificial aid - sans a gourd bell around their neck or groin. If it can work for them, surely it can work for any one of us. And no, I am under no grand delusions they click/treat train their dogs or do not use correction based/physical means but for you to imply, Jeff that a shock collar is the only way to get the best out of a dog, makes me pause and think - how is it native populaces, without the benefits higher westernized education/training methods, can find a way to work alongside their dogs and we say its near impossible?"

"And really - the whole point being - native people do NOT have a choice, therefore they must find a way to be successful, which is much harder IMO, then slapping on a shock collar and compelling a dog to do ones bidding."

Your argument here does not take into account the amount of dogs killed and wounded in action in Africa and I am sure there have been many. Natural selection and skill will determine the survivors and they in turn will create better, more cunning hunters that can survive better. These skills are prized by the locals...they are largely ignored by the pet owner here. I have never run with an african basenji in the field as much as I would like to, but I have hunted dangerous game with lots of dogs in the US to include Basenjis. It is not easy and it is not safe. It is dirty, dangerous, and often bloody work. When hunting dangerous game, the tables can be turned on the hunter very quickly and easily. Dogs get hurt and killed here with all of the technology and skill we have, it still happens. The dogs love the hunt more than anything in the world and will sometimes run headlong into death without hesitation. I am all for natural selection and letting dogs be dogs, but I am not willing to watch my hunting basenjis get mauled or killed by boar, mountain lions, coyotes, or bobcats. Furthermore, if I can stop them from running across the highway while chasing one of these creatures or escape being run over by a car...I will "shock" them until the stop and I do not care what anyone says about it.

I use the collar to keep the dogs from getting into trouble and I have never implied or told you that I use the to get the "best" of of a dog. You are presumptuous due to your emotional connection to the matter.

And by the way, if you could feel your "shock collar" on a low setting, you bought a bad one and how much you paid for it is irrelevant. I know every brand of equipment out there very well; most are not good. Again, a high end collar such as Dogtra 280 or 2300 is imperceptible to a human at its low settings. The better collars are on a rehostat with micro adjustments not big jumps. The vibration feature, not shock, is used 99% of the time. If stimulation is necessary, level of 25-50 work on most dogs. The feeling of that is similar to the electrical simulation devices used in physical therapy.

For what it is worth and I really want to end the collar drama here because it is so distracting...we train working dogs and obedience but none of the skills are learned with the E-collar. There is no need. Not only that, any negative reinforcement for a positive job is an oxymoron from any perspective and we just do not do it. The E-collar is used to control bad behavior and for recall in bad situations. We deal with many dogs that have drive the average person cannot imagine and they can have really bad tendencies. The e-collar can be a necessary component but not always. If you want to publicly debate this...let's go elsewhere.

"Per the OFA you started out great with Axel - getting his CHIC (fanconi, hips, eyes, elbows, patellas and thyroid), then you kind of fell behind the eight ball with Aru (eyes and fanconi only prior to her litter) then even less with Kaden and Phoenix (fanconi only (at this time) for their litter)"
.
As for my testing of this litter and as I have stated before...all plans were to do the right thing but the timing Phoenix went into heat while we were gone training at it could not be helped. We had planned to breed her but not at the time it happened. There is no excuse and I said that before, too. I am trying to do the right thing and have asked questions about what is safe during pregnancy. I am aware of all testing but not what could be done during pregnancy, that was new and I wanted advice. I think that was the responsible thing to do and it would be nice to get some credit for it. What seems to have happened is even though I explained the situation, the lack of testing is being used to make it look like it was purposeful and meant to deceive.

Phoenix was seen today by our vet and she will have patella done, hips later as well as Thyroid. Kaden is getting the fully Monty tomorrow.

As far as what we are doing with trying to produce a need for something that was not there before. I am not trying to convince you or any basenji person of the need for a detector dog. However, you have to admit that it is interesting and that is really why I bring it up. Phoenix is going to have five pups and there are no plans for more. If this program goes on, it will probably not be us doing it. Five puppies does not require a huge marketing scheme and I really don't need to sell them. If these pups go to work the basenji community will have very little to do with it but I was excited to tell the Basenji community about it.

Do you not like the idea that we can do something with the basenji because of some of their very unique traits? Does it really matter if it is not for a basenji owner? What if what is done here saves lives one day? Could that not be something to be happy with and of value? There is a very real need for an inconspicuous, nimble, and silent dog that is very careful about how it approaches things in the explosives detection field. Do you not agree that the traits I just mentioned could be attributed to our basenjis? I thought so and decided to get the nose and work drive for humans to go with it. Those traits can be seen vary reliably at seven weeks old. This is the age we test all of our working dogs at and we have never made a mistake. We pick a lot of puppies, too. I am quite certain that anything I test at seven weeks will be a mini mirror of what it will be as an adult. Hopefully, I have more than one or two pups that test well.

My initial draw to the basenji was the ability to hunt because it is one of my passions. What I found was that basenji hunting traits have been severely watered down in the United States. Very few people hunt their B's and I really don't think any breeding has been done with hunting in mind. Agility and lure do not count. The dog is touted as a hunter by many in the basenji world who abhor hunting and a general fancy that does not even recognize it as a field trial. That is a shame, in my opinion. This is one thing that I would like to see change. I did pick the best traits I could from show lines to come up with two hunters. Of all the pups tested from two litters, their were only two. That would not be the case if it were another field line of dogs I was testing. I bred those two in hopes of getting a better hunter and I did. But out of that litter, I only had two and picked one. Kaden was tested and chosen to take it one more step and I hope we have it. Is it guaranteed? No, is it probable that their will be better hunters than before, I think so.

In my opinion, I think we need to maintain hunting traits in the US dogs by recognizing those traits and breeding for them. If we do not, the American Basenji will NEVER be a hunting dog and should not be touted as one.

Please do me a big favor: If you really want to know what we do, come and find out for yourself. I do not want to fight with you or anyone else, but I will not roll over for misinformation.

[sinbaje]

Just a few clarifications for those folks still interested in the thread and then I really should concentrate on other things, like work!

"Your key words are all obtained via an e-collar…".

Actually Jeff, I did not say that, what I said was - my concerns are puppy buyers might have expectations, and all of their expectations may be based on behaviors they see in your dogs, "behaviors obtained via the e-collar". I never said all of your dogs behaviors were/are obtained in that manner. I am sorry I was not more clear but I feel my concerns are still valid.

I don't expect you to agree and that is ok! Just as I do not expect you to feel the need to validate or rationalize why you use shock collars. I have already said, it is a personal choice.

"I use the collar to keep the dogs from getting into trouble and I have never implied or told you that I use the to get the "best" of of a dog. "

Sorry. I guess I misunderstood when you wrote:

"I also want to back up what another wrote that most working dog trainers use e-collars. That is the absolute truth. They do it because they work well an produce better dogs. I train dogs for life and death situations every day as do my peers. We all use e-collars."

I took this to mean a driving force for using the e-collar for you and your peers were to produce better dogs not to keep them out of harms way. My bad.

"You are presumptuous due to your emotional connection to the matter."

I am not the least bit emotionally connected to the subject of e-collars. I have used a shock collar, I feel they are a personal choice (hopefully a well trained one), just no longer my choice. I am not even really interested (as previously stated) about the use of them. My only concern was the use of e-collars to control the line of dog you listed as being for sale and how it could translate to those puppy buyers who might have unrealistic expectations of their new charges.

"There is a very real need for an inconspicuous, nimble, and silent dog that is very careful about how it approaches things in the explosives detection field."

As a total aside and not to create further discussion (i really do not have the time) but just an interesting (to me) observation - on one hand your use of the shock collar is to keep your dog from approaching danger while on the other you are training them to detect something that could blow them to smithereens.

Now then, I personally do not feel this breed is in danger of losing it's natural instincts as evidenced by the fact you could find hunters amongst show dogs. I have personally found the breed to be whatever we want to make it good or bad.

Good luck with your soon to be charges.

[Voodoo]

@sinbaje:

Now then, I personally do not feel this breed is in danger of losing it's natural instincts as evidenced by the fact you could find hunters amongst show dogs. I have personally found the breed to be whatever we want to make it good or bad.

The breed has allready lost much of it's natural instincts. Compare the native stock to the pet Basenji's and there allready is a large difference. Both in size, looks and temperament. To say that there are still hunters amongst the show dogs, is a bit of an empty statement. No one hunts with their Basenji, so how can you tell? There is a big difference between hunting and just chasing whatever moves. And allmost all dogs will simply chase what moves, but that doesn't mean they have what it takes to be a good hunting dog. But on the other hand, since no one uses them for hunting, it might be that there are quit a few good hunting dogs amongst the show dogs, we just don't know.
And indeed the breed will be whatever we want to make it, but do we really want just another show dog? Is that what the future of the breed will be? Only breeding for whatever is wanted that moment in the show ring, and pretty much ignoring all of the characteristics that make a Basenji a Basenji? Then we will end up (as so many breeds allready did) with an empty (but good looking) shell that once was know as The Basenji, the great hunting companion… But that's another discussion.

[GeorgiaK9]

As a total aside and not to create further discussion (i really do not have the time) but just an interesting (to me) observation - on one hand your use of the shock collar is to keep your dog from approaching danger while on the other you are training them to detect something that could blow them to smithereens.

I know you do not have the time to respond but you had the time to post so I will elaborate on what your wrote because to people who might not be in the "know" might be mislead by the lack of foundation.

When training a dog for explosives detection there is no danger, only fun. There are no e-collars ever used for any reason. When deploying a dog for real explosives detection the handler and the dog are deployed together and if one makes the ultimate sacrifice, so does the other. This risk is made to protect others such as yourself in many public settings. The purpose of our efforts and we do not know if they will be successful yet, is to provide a dog that is small, quiet, nimble, cautious but without overt fear, and had great ability to work for a human without looking like it is doing the job. Part of the reason for this is that many IED's are remotely detonated. A big, supremely obvious dog attracts attention.

If anyone would like to know more about how and what we train for, feel free to write to me directly or open another post here. I am happy to answer questions openly and honestly.

Jeff

[GeorgiaK9]

I could not have said that better! Voodoo, you are so correct. And, by the way, Voodoo is the name of one of our hot GSD's going to CA for police work. She is one of our best trackers.

The precedent for what you say can be found in other breeds such as the bloodhound and American German Shepherd. Both breeds were originally working breeds with the bloodhound being very famous up to about WWII. Interestingly Dr. Whitney wrote about the differences between show hounds and the working stock, going so far as to show photographic changes that he noted had taken place. This was in 1947. His book has been long out of print but I was able to thumb through a friends' copy a few weeks ago. The show dog he talked about then is now the standard for the breed and the working dog he used and bred is now gone for the most part. In trying to get it back, other hound breeds from hunting lines are currently being used by a very few working dog breeders. The modern bloodhound, though touted to be the best tracker by show breeders, is usually not a good candidate. They are often too big, to slow, too grossly baggy, with bad eyes and horrible orthopedics. The other issue that has cropped up is a major case of shyness and phobic response to noise that is encountered with the many show hounds in the field. Many modern breeders say this is normal for bloodhounds in an attempt to rationalize what they see occurring, but the reality is the early manhunter hounds of the 19th and 20th century were relatively fearless and did not look like the dogs today. As for the GSD's, American law enforcement rarely uses the standard American show GSD for work and most dogs are imported out of CZ, Germany, Holland, Slovakia, and Belgium. The reason is the show dogs are not sound for the job due to the grossly exaggerated slanted posture that is the show standard today. The other factor is the working brain is less prevalent in the show GSD's.

Bloodhounds and GSD's are not basenjis but there are parralles here. We as a group of enthusiasts will lose the hunting traits of the basenji if we are not careful. Even with new stock coming from Africa, it will still occur. We will change the dog from what it was to something different and perhaps it has already happened. I have tested quite a few basenjis for hunting traits and found them lacking. I had no choice but to use show stock because that was all there was available at the time. When testing litters of puppies, most of the puppies did not pass and I was lucky to find a single dog out of the litter. This would be considered a bad situation by any hunting breeder. Even with the single litter that I bred for specifically for hunting, I was able to increase the number by two and picked one. I brought in Kaden who is 1/4 AF to hopefully change things a bit. He tested so far off the charts as a puppy that I was really amazed. This may not guarantee success.

Their is a Russian breeder who has a working line of dogs that the government protects and does not allow out of the country. His dogs are mongrels and are some of the best scent detection dogs there are, reportedly. His foundation stock was the jackal. This breeder recognized many traits in this wild dog that he knew would be good for work and he harnessed it. His efforts were featured on NatGeo a few years ago. This is what gave me the idea for the working Basenji. I recognized certain traits in my hunters that I knew would be good for work and a hoping to get them. I have no idea if this will work but if it does, it will be a very good thing.

My interest with Basenjis is preserving the native traits of the dog and using them for what the breed is supposed to do, hunting, and work if possible.

[eeeefarm]

@GeorgiaK9:

My interest with Basenjis is preserving the native traits of the dog and using them for what the breed is supposed to do, hunting, and work if possible.

We need more people doing that, IMHO. A lot of breeds lose the traits they were originally bred for once the show people take over and start emphasizing "pretty" at the expense of ability. In Canada the Canadian Border Collie Association tried in vain to keep Border Collies out of conformation showing. They feel so strongly about this issue that people who show their dogs in conformation are not eligible for membership in CBCA. From my own, admittedly anecdotal, observations, I would say Basenjis have changed somewhat in the forty years since I had my first one. Contrary to popular opinion, I think the earlier dogs had better temperaments than the current crop. Also, I have noted that the "pretty" ones who do well at conformation seem to be less social and tolerant with other dogs and people. Again, this is an impression based on a limited sample, so may not be valid. Obviously environmental factors may also be at play here. But it would be good if these dogs could be used more in field trials (not just lure coursing) to retain their hunting abilities and desire to work with their humans in a cooperative way.