@abonnard Pee pads got me through in the end, she would pee every 20 mins for the first months, then 40 mins, then she suddenly went to being able to hold it for many hours. One of the best purchases I got before she arrived was a small carpet washer, saved my sanity. The cleanup is so key otherwise they go back to the same spot.
Copper
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Any time I hear someone send a dog off for training, I get concerned. Dogs are not the ones who need training, the owners are. The problem is not the dog. The problem is the owner needs to learn to train. Boarding trainers are scams who make my blood boil almost as much as charlatans like John Edwards. Almost without exception, if you can't learn to train your pet, you don't need to own it. If you are not willing to put the effort into learning how, you don't need it. And trainers worth their salt know that, yet prey on people instead of being honest. Please, get your dog home and get some help.
The S in basenji stands for stubborn. HELLO. No trainer will stop that. You train around it. Unless you put a shock collar on the dog and zapped it into a seizure, few basenjis give up being stubborn. It is part of their charm.
You learn to train smart so they think what you want them to do is a good idea. Please, bring your dog home. You have no idea what damage they are doing to him.TRAINING isn't about tricks or performance. It is about building a relationship. YOUR relationship with YOUR dog. The problems you describe are, I am sorry to say, typical. Really. If I tell Arwen to get off the kitchen table once in a week, I tell her 5 or 6 times. Yes, I could booby trap it so she gets scared, but really… is that want I want? Especially since, being a basenji, she'll simply find another place I don't want her to go. A big part of the UNappeal of the breed is the need to watch the little sucker actively. Many here have dogs they can leave uncrated or unwatched. Most of us, not so much. We had a lovely foster here who didn't even bother TRASH with kleenex in it. My daughter begged to keep him! But most, you just learn to be better house keepers.
If basic normal basenji behaviors are not what you want to live with, or are willing to live with in order to have one... you might want to consider contacting the breeder about rehoming him and find a dog more suited to your needs. But if you do want to keep him, you are going to have to meet his normal behaviors about 80 percent of the way, because that's just what they are.
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I agree with a lot of Debra's post…but I do want to clarify that not ALL board and train, or train w/o owner programs are bogus. Lots of people don't WANT to learn to train a dog well; or they have more money than time; or whatever, but they do want a well-trained dog; and that is fine. Board and train is more successful for the basic behaviors, than it is for problem behaviors. And a good trainer will end up training the owners before handing over the dog. It is admittedly difficult to train a human with very little training aptitude, and a dog that has several bad habits at the same time.
The problem I see in training w/o owner with dogs like Basenjis is that they are smart enough to know whom they need listen to, and whom they don't...so if the owners aren't actively involved in the training, chances are the Basenji won't bother to listen; and if force is used, they will be intimidated by those who did the training, but not necessarily by the owner when they return; AND for most of the problems the OP described the training really needs to be done IN the situation in which it is occuring. That is, I could teach your dog not to counter-surf at my house, but he would go right back to it at your house, unless you did exactly the same training in the new location.
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LOL Andrea, how do you stop counter surfing? I just keep stuff off but I bought one of those mousetrap things (NO it doesn't hurt the dog, it makes loud noise). Cara learned in about a nanosecond to hit the trashcan so it popped, then went for the trash. I have used double sided sticky tape on counters and stopped it before but I just gave up with Sayblee since sticky or not, she checked… stood up like a freaking meercat to see if anything was up there.
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I agree with a lot of Debra's post…but I do want to clarify that not ALL board and train, or train w/o owner programs are bogus.
I guess my point wasn't that they can't train the dog for you, and if you work with them make it through. Some can depending on the issues.
My point was training is about building a relationship as much if not far more than what is taught. Good trainers know that. So to me, most of what they do is wrong… they charge a fortune to make money instead of educating owners and helping train or consider if they really want to BE dog owners.
So lets say you want to show your dog... do you have to learn to do it or get a handler? Your choice.
My objections are daily living issues and my gut feeling if you aren't willing to work to learn to train the dog, do you really need a dog? -
I'm sorry but Ihave to agree with the previous posters - no.1, Your Basenjis is behaving just like a Basenji. 2. In the main I agree that sending a Basenji away to trainers is not a good idea - yes, the trainer may succeed in teaching him not to do the things you don't want him to do BUT unless you train him as well he'll come back to you and carry on his normal Basenji behaviour. That's why it's essential to work with any other person who is training. Personally I'm not in agreement that 'training' is suitable for a Basenji. I've always found that they need to want to please you out of respect. To you a behaviour may seem bad but to the Basenji it's just being normal. And what works for one Basenji doesn't always work for another either. Positive training is always the most successful too.
Andrea, I too was in admiration that you've 'persuaded' yours not to jump on the table! Most of mine don't, but Bungwa, now 7 years old still persists despite me trying every way I can think of to dissuade him!!
"Why stay on the floor", he asks me, "there's bound to be much more I can see from up here and besides tere's this little patch of sunlight, just right here".
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I am not sure how much research you did on the breed before purchasing your pup but your boy sounds like a typical Basenji. Many Bs get turned into rescue because owners think that once a dog is over one year old, it should no longer have puppy traits and it should be obedient and not get into things.
I have four Bs, ages 4-12, and today since the weather was nice I had the back door open so the dogs could come and go as they please. I was doing some yard work. The sheet that was covering a chair was taken outside by probably the 4 year old and was being chewed by the 12 year old who is Fanconi affected. Later a large thick crate pad that was being used as a bed on the floor was also pulled outside. I am not sure how they got it outside as the door was not open very wide. The 4 and 10 year old were near it and when I got the 4 year old away from it, the 10 year old decided to lay on it. I guess he wanted the bed outside! The 12 year old will attack this crate pad and grab it in her mouth and shake it. She does this several times a week. Earlier in the morning the 8 year old who I thought was chewing on a Nylabone was actually shredding and chewing some paper which was stacked near the Nylabone. Basenjis are sneeky like that-pretend they are doing one thing but actually doing another! Just another day with my Basenjis!
Hopefully, the trainers know about Basenjis and hounds and if not, will read up on them. There are several websites that describe Basenji characteristics and show what destruction Basenjis can do!
Jennifer
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LOL Andrea, how do you stop counter surfing? I just keep stuff off but I bought one of those mousetrap things (NO it doesn't hurt the dog, it makes loud noise). Cara learned in about a nanosecond to hit the trashcan so it popped, then went for the trash. I have used double sided sticky tape on counters and stopped it before but I just gave up with Sayblee since sticky or not, she checked… stood up like a freaking meercat to see if anything was up there.
Ha! Did I say my dogs don't counter surf?? No, I said I could train someone else's not to
Seriously, it is really hard with a dog that is persistant…and we all know Basenjis are persistant. In reality, the only way to stop counter surfing is for it not to pay off for the dog. So everytime the dog gets something, the likelihood of it trying again is increased. So everyone in the house has to be completely vigilant about NOT leaving stuff around. And even then the Basenji will generally check, and you can control that with a 'leave-it' if you are within earshot. Our only TERRIBLE counter surfer is Ivy...she is completely committed, and nothing will change her mind. The others are only mildly interested, unless they can smell that there is indeed food up there, then are harder to disuade. Our dogs used to have much better table manners, but having toddlers really changed that because they are like slot machines that pay out ALL the time! Of course the dogs are addicted! -
^ suki has never gotten a thing from the counter, and she is still a truly dedicated counter surfer - kitchen and bathroom counters. there is simply no dissuading her.
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IMO, this boy is screaming to exercise. How much exercise does he get?
Also, I don't think you have found the right person to help you with this basenji.
You need a basenji smart trainer. Otherwise, the behavior can get worse.
I am sorry this isnt' more positive. -
^ suki has never gotten a thing from the counter, and she is still a truly dedicated counter surfer - kitchen and bathroom counters. there is simply no dissuading her.
Hope springs eternal
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No offense intended, but this has red flags all over. He sounds like a totally typical Basenji. The fact that your trainer is having problems because the dog is "stubborn" sounds like he is using training techniques that are largely unsuccessful with dogs like Basenjis. I think if you were to pursue more appropriate training techniques with this dog, your results would be much more satisfying. My guess is that you will get your dog back with more behavior issues than he left with, and they will be more serious, and harder to deal with. I hope I am wrong, but please keep us updated when he comes home.
What are the successful training techniques for Basenji's?
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What are the successful training techniques for Basenji's?
Positive reinforcement training is really the very best technique for dogs that like to think for themselves (not just Basenjis). Dogs that have traditionally been called stubborn are much more compliant if there is something in it for them. If you can convince them to do what YOU want, rather than force them to do what you want, your relationship is stronger, and you are both happier. It is a win-win!
Sometimes, for some people, switching from a force based training system to a reward based training system takes a big effort, and a shift in how you view dogs. If you think dogs are here to serve man, and should be compliant because humans dominate them…then it may be hard to shift to the theory that dogs are animals and will do what is best for them.
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I was NOT going to post anything on this thread, but I'll wade in now. Reaching the Animal Mind by Pryor is a GREAT read on this subject (training/understanding animals). There is even a website with videos go go along with each chapter.
http://reachingtheanimalmind.com/book.htmlThe Thinking Dog is also a good read. Anything by Dr Patricia McConnell is worth reading and I also liked Bones Would Rain from the Sky. I've actually found all of these books at my local library, so it may not cost you anything to read them.
Here's a good place to start on line:
http://www.clickerlessons.com/index.htmWatch this before doing anything else:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html
everybody who lives with a dog, or child, should watch this on a regular basis.Personally, I haven't found basenjis to be stubborn. Harder to motivate than most breeds - yes, but no more stubborn than anything else. Yes, they want what they want when they want it, but so does every other thinking creature on this planet. And yes, I have trained a few basenjis to the point of being able to put a few titles on a few them. When I started clicker training, I had to lock up the other basenjis because everybody wanted to play the clicker game; it was that much fun. That much fun for the dogs AND me.
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I agree with a lot of Debra's post…but I do want to clarify that not ALL board and train, or train w/o owner programs are bogus. Lots of people don't WANT to learn to train a dog well; or they have more money than time; or whatever, but they do want a well-trained dog; and that is fine. Board and train is more successful for the basic behaviors, than it is for problem behaviors. And a good trainer will end up training the owners before handing over the dog. It is admittedly difficult to train a human with very little training aptitude, and a dog that has several bad habits at the same time.
The problem I see in training w/o owner with dogs like Basenjis is that they are smart enough to know whom they need listen to, and whom they don't...so if the owners aren't actively involved in the training, chances are the Basenji won't bother to listen; and if force is used, they will be intimidated by those who did the training, but not necessarily by the owner when they return; AND for most of the problems the OP described the training really needs to be done IN the situation in which it is occuring. That is, I could teach your dog not to counter-surf at my house, but he would go right back to it at your house, unless you did exactly the same training in the new location.
They are training him in a positive way, and do plan on training us on their return. Training us and Copper at the same time didn't work, I think we were too soft and inconsistent with Copper. so we figured if he is trained properly, then we know it's us, and then we will follow the rules to keep up the training. The trainers know that stubborn is part of a Basenji, but he should still be able to stay when asked, and not chew up furniture because he thinks it's his. I can be a better house cleaner, but I need furniture, floors and walls. He's aggressive with other animals and people, he nips, he has drawn blood when nipping my daughter, I think these are not acceptable behaviours even from a Basenji.
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Reading all these posts, I am getting worried that I did the wrong thing. We really love copper, and want him as part of our family no matter what, we were just hoping that this would help. We can't possibly watch him 24/7. I don't like putting him in his crate if I'm at home.
The training school is very reputable. I trust them. But I may bring copper back now, I'm so worried we did the wrong thing.
BTW, what is the best dog food for Basenjis? I'm been feeding him Red Moon, (recommended by the Dog Whisper) but I wonder if there is something better for Basenjis. I may even look at recipes and make his food.
Thanks for all the great comments. A lot to think about.
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Reading all these posts, I am getting worried that I did the wrong thing. We really love copper, and want him as part of our family no matter what, we were just hoping that this would help. We can't possibly watch him 24/7. I don't like putting him in his crate if I'm at home.
The training school is very reputable. I trust them. But I may bring copper back now, I'm so worried we did the wrong thing.
BTW, what is the best dog food for Basenjis? I'm been feeding him Red Moon, (recommended by the Dog Whisper) but I wonder if there is something better for Basenjis. I may even look at recipes and make his food.
Thanks for all the great comments. A lot to think about.
It is really hard to diagnose and give good advice on something like this over the internet. If this were my dog, I would want to know exactly what techniques they are using to train my dog. Some examples that they might list are choke collar, or clicker training. I am a little confused as to why a down stay will help with the issues you are having. IMO basic obedience is not going to help him if what he needs is a different structure at home. If he is chewing your furniture, it isn't because he isn't trained properly, it is because he is bored and/or he knows it gets your attention.
When you say he is aggressive towards people and other animals, there is a huge range of what you could be describing. If he is nipping your daughter in play, that is totally normal for a young dog of any breed. If he is nipping her in anger, that is something different.
Don't panic! Just do some of the reading that Agile suggested…see what you can find on the internet; there is a ton of information on different training schools of thought. You can even search these forums for past discussions on the topics of Cesar Milan and other training topics. And then ask your trainer some questions. If you are comfortable with the answers, then stick with your original plan.
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Please get in touch with some Basenji savvy breeders in your area, they are always wonderful for advice and will be happy to help you make some decisions. I know nomrbddgs is a member in Ontario and she is frequently on the BasenjiForums - I'm sure she would be willing to offer some advice. Maybe leave a message on her profile ? Have you contacted your breeder ?
I'm sure this must be a distressing time for you as you are trying to do what's best for your dog. I must agree that like the others I hear the problem symptoms being very very typical for the breed. Please try and remember you own a dog which for over 6,000 years has had to think for itself to survive. It has not evolved the way more common dogs had. The Basneji's life depends on its' independence, not on it's obedience to a human. … that being said take a look at these youtube videos: Basenjis CAN be good listeners!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-4cMvDhfH0
http://www.youtube.com/user/JannekeJ87#p/u/27/UopVEg5J2ps
(both of these ladies are on the fourms
)Obviously it's difficult to give advice over the internet as none of us can see Copper but I think if the training school - no matter how good it is - is saying they are having problems with his behavior, it seems possible that they are not training in a very "Basenji efficient" manner. That does not mean the school is bad, it's more like they don't have strong hound experience. A good question to ask your school is they know and practice any of Karen Pryor's techniques, she is a cornerstone of positive reinforcement training. Patricia Mcconnell is always good as well. I personally think it is probably really helpful to have you guys trained with a good positive reinforcement trainer who can help you with Copper - sometimes it's a matter of finding the right person. I find an excellent starter book is called "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion - it's very straight forward and even talks about training Basenjis! The Canada ppl maybe able to give a recommendation on a person too.
Finally, diet for Basenjis is subjective. All of us have different preferences for our pups but I think you will find that most of us either feed a completely raw diet with veggies or a dry grainless kibble (like Orijen) with some fresh stuff on the side. I think the main thing is, stay away from things not found in a dogs natural diet, corn, rice, etc.
Don't give up. You are being a good parent to your B just by getting more impute. I'm sure things will work out.
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You obviously care for Copper and are trying your best. we can all give you advice from our own experience but it's up to you to establish how myou want Copper to behave but making sure you take into account the breed he is.
I totally agree with the advice you've been given by the previous posters and agilebasenjis links look like a very good starting place. None of us know your trainer but it would appear that they've not had a great deal of experience of Basenjis. You will be able to help them there with your knowledge gained from the collected experience of those on the forum who have years of experience! Indeed I'm sure that together we total 100s of years of Basenji knowledge.
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d'oh and of course there's the book Control Unleashed. that one was not at the public library, but it's worth a read too! Certainly one of my favorites
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Thanks everyone for all the wonderful advice. I have some research to do. I'll keep you posted.
