New foster Sophia need some advice

[tanza]

Recent Spay would not cause her to hump your leg, I would agree with dominance and certainly, yes, bitches will do this

[DebraDownSouth]

She needs much more exercise. A tired dog is a good dog.

Humping is dominance, male or female. Yes it is common with females.

In every situation, someone gets trained. Please view the posts and make sure you are the trainer, not the trainee.

Putting her on a lead and teaching HEEL helps to show you have control, that YOU are making her stay with you, and teaches her where her body needs to be when near you.

If you have to use the squirt bottle all the time, that isn't training… it is avoiding training through aversion techniques. Not saying the water bottle is BAD, simply it is short term avoidance of the issue.

Doesn't sit fast? Hello, you say sit ONE TIME, then you place the body into sit and say GOOD SIT. Going at her own pace is another measure of controlling you.

[westcoastflea1]

omigod she soooo thinks im her bitch

thanks so much for pointing out that she thinks shes the dominant one here not me

ive been viewing this as poor sophia left here by her breeder and feeling sooo lonely and insecure when in fact thats not the case anymore
we are in the midst of a power struggle here
wish me luck!!

[Patty M]

Keep us posted! Do you have any pictures of this girl? You two will learn together… it will be fun for us to watch from the sidelines.

[Patty]

She just seems to me tobe one insecure little girl - I notice that she's only been with you for just overa week. Be very patient but I wouldn't advise a water spray to get her to stop invading your space. You could make her believe that she should just keep well away. Perhaps she may need more tiime than some to learn that she doesn't need to cling to you all the time. Just work on building her confidence by teaching and reinforcing basic commands. Reward her for the 'good' things but please don't punish her for the 'bad'

[listeme]

@DebraDownSouth:

She needs much more exercise. A tired dog is a good dog.

Humping is dominance, male or female. Yes it is common with females.

In every situation, someone gets trained. Please view the posts and make sure you are the trainer, not the trainee.

Putting her on a lead and teaching HEEL helps to show you have control, that YOU are making her stay with you, and teaches her where her body needs to be when near you.

If you have to use the squirt bottle all the time, that isn't training… it is avoiding training through aversion techniques. Not saying the water bottle is BAD, simply it is short term avoidance of the issue.

Doesn't sit fast? Hello, you say sit ONE TIME, then you place the body into sit and say GOOD SIT. Going at her own pace is another measure of controlling you.

Respectfully, I disagree with some of this. I've had both male and female try to hump when they are "just" overstimulated – keyed up, hyped up. I dunno if I'd automatically see it as dominance -- or at least not as JUST dominance -- especially since she's been crated nearly 24-7 her whole life. I'd be very keyed up if I suddenly had so much extra free space under those circumstances.

I definitely would not be forcing a sit or really forcing anything other than "life-saving measures" with this girl. I realize there's a LOT to deal with here, but I'd be using the food and attention to shape her behaviors into more acceptable paths, period, and use the crate when you're feeling overwhelmed. She's not MISbehaving, not deliberately, not willfully, she's just doing things she knows to do. Please, please, don't see this as a battle of wills. It doesn't sound like it to me at ALL.

P.S. I'm armchair quarterbacking, yes.

[agilebasenji]

@listeme:

Respectfully, I disagree with some of this. I've had both male and female try to hump when they are "just" overstimulated – keyed up, hyped up. I dunno if I'd automatically see it as dominance -- or at least not as JUST dominance -- especially since she's been crated nearly 24-7 her whole life. I'd be very keyed up if I suddenly had so much extra free space under those circumstances.

I definitely would not be forcing a sit or really forcing anything other than "life-saving measures" with this girl. I realize there's a LOT to deal with here, but I'd be using the food and attention to shape her behaviors into more acceptable paths, period, and use the crate when you're feeling overwhelmed. She's not MISbehaving, not deliberately, not willfully, she's just doing things she knows to do. Please, please, don't see this as a battle of wills. It doesn't sound like it to me at ALL.

P.S. I'm armchair quarterbacking, yes.

There's the old joke that the only thing 2 dog trainers can agree on is that the third is wrong. And I was going to sit this one out, but well, since listme brought it up, I'll jump in and add my 2 pennies worth. I've always wondered where the humping = dominance came from. I've pondered the idea that people (esp Americans) are more comfortable with dominance than masterbation, but, I don't know. My experience with dogs humping has been limited to dogs that came from the pound and humping inanimate objects. (Okay that excludes intact Jet humping the spayed malinois in the house for the past couple of weeks, but that is directly realted to Zest being inna da season right now. Otherwise he doesn't hump anything.) I have to say my dogs from breeders, dogs with good starts in life, don't seem inclined to hump. Our current mali will hump her dog bed, but she's really omega in the household.

And yea, I agree 100% about not seeing this as a battle of wills. That creates an adversarial relationship and things only go downhill from there.

[nobarkus]

I wouldn't get into that "battle of the wills" either. She's going through a lot of change very fast. Try to be calm with her. Exercise will take some of that energy out and relax her.

[lvoss]

Much of the reading I have done on humping and what I have observed in dogs about humping is that it is often a stress relief behavior, usually when the dog is over stimulated. Sniffing is also a sress relief behavior. What you are describing seeing in Sophia is a dog that is over stimulated and highly stressed and looking for outlets to relieve that stress. Helping her "learn to earn" will help her to deal with some of this stress as she starts to understand what is expected of her and that she has choices.

I would avoid using the squirt bottle because IMO an adversive is only going to increase her stress and increase the behaviors that you are trying to extinguish.

[DebraDownSouth]

listeme, you are right… humping can be other things... but even if all "keyed up" it is generally to show dominance or control. I have seen males and females where one day one humps, another the other so it isn't clearly alpha... but trying to control... usually. (edited note: ie control as in not dominate but decrease tension)

As for sit... either teach it or don't teach it. Don't say sit and let her call the shots. That was my point. But actually teaching obedience gives the dog useful attention, and she is definitely craving attention. It gives her time with a person, with the person in control, in a constructive way. I don't see teaching sit or any number of commands as negative at all. Training should be FUN and UP and bonding. Nor is placing her body in sit "FORCING" .. it is showing and enforcing. It is training, not some battle.

Notice though my first advice was simply find the one issue most a concern and work on it. My post was addressing other things posted, not what I think she should be doing.

Other than tripping dangers, I don't find anything the dog is doing to be terrible. I try to let rescues take a week to just chill, fit in and settle. I wouldn't be using the squirt bottle, but I would leash her and teach her body positioning.

This poster had issues with her last rescue and I sense that much of the issues are her own inexperience in training and a great desire to fix everything fast. This dog has years to undo, it isn't going to be fast.

And we agree, it is not a power struggle, it is a training issue. I frankly think the dog sounds delightfully normal but untrained. I worry however, when roommates are getting upset. People have posted excellent advice, and she has BRAT coordinator... she just needs to take a deep breathe and work on sorting out the big issues and letting the rest get sorted later.

LOL we are all armchairing... which is why using the coordinator who has access to the dog is important.

[westcoastflea1]

this is long i apologize for that
ive owned one basenji in my life and training was not something i did with her, so im not sure what i would have done without my coordinator at brat she has been so extremely helpful in guiding me through this whole experience she has had lots of advice and has been incredibly supportive

i find this forum to be incredibly helpful as well, so many different types of people all with different approaches to basenjis and so willing to share whatever knowledge they have i really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to post

thanks to my coordinator and the people on this forum i had an ah ha moment last night:)

several people felt sophia needed to know who was boss so after thinking about it i felt that that really was what i needed to do in this case, so as cesar milan says "rules boundaries and limitations" are going to be the key to dealing with sophia.

whether she is truly dominant or not she clearly feels that she needs to be because im not setting rules and boundaries for her.

ive been too busy trying to make her feel happy and secure which is of course important, and needed to be done but i think she is letting me know it is time to move onto the next step

disciplinarian is not a role that im comfortable with so having people advocate for it in a way that makes sense has been really critical in enabling me to act on the advice given and not doubt what im doing

i believe confidence is key in being consistent and positive whenver anyone steps outside their comfort zone

so ive taken alot of the advice given and am finding a huge difference in her behavior already:)

she seems much calmer and alot less like a 2 year old with add, kind of like she gets that im now in charge and that realization means she can relax

and its only been one day!

had a funny moment last night

i took the advice to make her physically sit on the first command which i did
she sat and i made her stay, while staying she looked me right in the eye and stood up and started humping me again
we went thru this over and over and over again, boy is she stubborn

so i finally did the cesar thing making her lay on her side til she submitted which she did til she relaxed and rolled over for a tummy rub
since then she has not tried to hump me once, and yesterday that was ALL she did
im also keeping her on a leash around the house so that she knows im the one who decides where we go and when.

im doing the "claim your space thing" sophia is no longer going to treat my lap and the furniture as her right, if she wants up she can let me know, then she has to sit and stay til i let her know whether or not she can up with me
.
last night i had sophia in my lap and dinner on the arm of the chair and after one correction sophia laid down on my lap and ignored my food the rest of the evening
that was a minor miracle in and of its self

i think that by letting sophia know that im now charge ill be getting to the heart of the problem instead of trying to fix all the little issues caused by the main problem and its much less stressful for me now that i feel like i have "permission" to set the rules and boundaries for her without feeling guilty about it, and that permission came from my coordinator and the good advice given by people here

so thanks again everyone

hopefully now i can see what the real sophia is like and relay the info so she can be posted for adoption

a pic was requested its not too great because truthfully i can never get her far enough away from me to take a pic

shes in the mailbox i WAS using for mail that sits next my office chair she has taken that over and seems to like it:)

[thunderbird8588]

That's a realy cute picture of Sophia in the mailbox

[Patty M]

West Coast Flea… what an awesome post! I am cheering for you via this forum... you will do wonders for Sophia with your new attitude. I'm glad you had the "aha moment". Someone told me once that a dog has the understanding of a 5 year old child, so if you keep that in mind... yes, she understands what you want, to a certain extent, and to the extent that she wants to understand....

Love and patience. Positive reinforcement and "treats" always work wonders with these wonderful pups.... I love the picture too!

PS... pertaining to food, I recommend feeding the one cup of food in the morning, rather than feeding her two times of 1/2 cup. If she only eats part of the serving, but knows that the rest of the food is there if/when she eats it... that may work well when she's trying to beg food from you and your roomies. When I got Lola, she was tiny for her structure, and always "hungry" for food, stealing a hot dog from my daughter (from the far side of the bun, of course) . We changed her from eating three times a day, to one time a day, with the leftover food left down for her to eat at leisure. At first, she would gobble the whole serving, but now (6 months later), she will leave leftovers in her bowl and return to it later. It's still one cup of food, but fed differently.

Keep doing what you are doing! You and Sophia are learning together, and that's a perfect thing.

[tanza]

Patty M, I disagree with leaving food down anytime…. I beleive that they should eat when the food is put down, if they do not in a reasonable amount of time it is taken away until the next feeding. And I also think that for an adult, two meals are better... one in the AM and one in the PM. I suppose that if you really want to "free feed" you can manage with one dog, but certainly not with more then one. You really never know "who" is eating what or when....

And I am glad that West Coast Flea has found some ideas that have helped and glad that she is in contact with the BRAT coordinator.. that said, I am not in favor of Cesar form of training, in particular the hold down practice. While it might work once or twice, if you ever get in a battle of wills, you will not win and someone will get seriously hurt. There are better ways of teaching your Baseni (or any dog) who is the "leader" of the pack

[Patty M]

Hi Pat F,
The reason we put food down all the time for Lola is because she was obsessed with food. In Lola's old home, she was fed 1/3 cup morning, noon, and night because her family was told that was "best" for the dog. As a result, Lola pooped morning, noon, and night. So in her old home, Lola was confined to the kitchen, as it was the non-carpeted area of the home.

When Lola became part of our home, we taught her that food was not an issue, and that she could "eat all she could" when it was offered. Now that she's realized that food supply is not an issue, she has slowed down in her food aggressiveness, and has become more (basenji) normal. She no longer steals hot dogs (from the other side of the bun) when my kids are eating on the couch. We also have a rat terrier that has adjusted to Miss Lola. Since we only have 2 dogs, we can watch as they eat to make sure that both are getting fed enough.

I agree that Cesar training is not always the basenji way. Have you ever seen a basenji featured on his show? NOT! lol. The best thing for any basenji is positive reinforcement, praise, treats, and lots of petting!

[DebraDownSouth]

I have to add that just knowing you are following Cesar at all has me concerned. If you never believe anything else I write, believe this… his ideas are damaging to your relationship with your dog. There is a HUGE difference between leading your dog and dominating it. Cesar hasn't a clue.

I also agree with Pat, once a day feeding isn't advised by any research. Nor do most recommend leaving food down. I am glad it works for Patty, but that is not the norm. Nor would I ever consider feeding once a day to have a dog poop once a day (though I understand that was not her motivation). Dogs, like humans, produce stomach bile. Going long periods of time without food isn't good. In addition, 2 or more feedings help keep blood levels normal. I would rather work directly on food issues (and USE that for training!) than limit to one meal and leave food down.

Congrats though on the breakthrough. Your confidence is the key.

[listeme]

Yeah, I'd be USING the food, for sure! She loves food, she is obsessed with it – and you are the one who has the hands

[nobarkus]

Sophia is jacked up right now. It's all new and you are too. When I brought Buddy home last year from the Basenji rescue at 8 months old he would have bouts of being wacko. Not mean or humping me just a bit wild crazy. It took some time and patience on my part for him to start calming down. The one weapon I used was just plain wearing him out. Has she had any socializing yet?

[erica ruth]

hi, i am sure its just going to time for her to settle in. she will be nervous and need to be near you. but realy i feel if you continue to let her disturb you while working by sneeking on your lap and following you closely, she MAY become dominant. and require your attention all the while we had similar probs with previous basenji. Keep her occopied with toys and hide treats in little boxes to amuse her. also i was told humpin the leg was a attempt at dominance. long,long walks is something she may need too. hope it works out as the basenji can be a pain but also a tremendous joy when you get it right… erica & wingco

[westcoastflea1]

opinion on feeding?
mine is that every dog and situation is unique so feeding isnt a one size fits all plan
my basenji maya was able to eat whenever she wanted for 10 years cast iron stomach pooped once a day and was never overweight
for sophia i have started giving one cup in the morning she eats most of it then poops she eats some later when she gets hungry again
and sometimes i give her a bit more in the evening
cesar
while everyone may not agree with all of cesars methods i believe that the principles behind them are sound

how many of us have seen moms who let their kids run all over
because they want their kids to be happy?
ignore their own wants and needs in the name of mommy self sacrifice to keep the little monsters happy?
i was one
so to have anyone give you permission to use rules boundaries and limitations and actually show you that your dog is happier for it is huge,
deb down souths very blunt post was my light bulb moment, that and the advice given by my brat coordinator
so i took the basic advice from deb and then used methods ive seen on cesar and started implementing them,
i have also used the advice given by someone else here which was to keep her on a leash and make her follow me around the house

my roommate was cooking so rather then let sophia bother him, jumping on the counters etc etc i put her on a leash and sat in the kitchen and made her sit and be calm while watching him

when i lay sophia down she does not struggle, the most she will do is put her head up to look at me, i make her put it down and wait til she relaxes enough that i can take my hands off of her and she stays in the position
she will show her tummy and she gets lots of affection while in the position
to be perfectly honest she seems to like it

however last night she started up again which i expected since it will take time

i had a bit of food in bed and she kept getting in my face i kept pushing her away and she totally ignored me and kept coming back in all honesty its times like this when we are actually struggling that i feel that it could escalate to her getting snappy with me
i dont feel that when i take her in hand immediately and put her on the floor
today she started humping me again
she does it facing me and looking right at me after 4 or 5 times
i put her down again, when she got up she started again
so i put her down again after that she was fine
when i sit in my office chair she will put her paws on my lap but its done in such a way that it feels like she is gripping me with them the way she does when jumps up on me and starts humping
she will put her paws on my office chair the same way and look at me like shes claiming it as well
it just really does not feel like excitement when she does this

sophia does it from the front and always looks right up into my face while doing it, almost feels like she is defying me to do something about it

if im not going to put her down on the floor when she does this what is it that i should do?
pushing her off doesnt do a thing

i have taken her to the dog park several times weather isnt great so havent taken her very often
both times she has been fearful, second time was better so am hopeful that it will improve as she gains confidence and trust and eventually start to play with the other dogs

she does have a twist toy that is like a top that spins and rolls you can fill it with treats and she bats it around and chases it like a cat with a mouse and the treats come out while she plays with it.

so again thanks for all the advice